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yepooda Casual Observer
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Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 60 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: HoO Website Quote |
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I've been looking at the quote on the HoO website and noticed something...
Quote: | "We place no reliance on virgin or pidgeon. Our method is science, our aim is religion."
-Aleister Crowley |
pidgeon is spelled differently from how you would expect to spell it if it was the bird (pigeon). so I looked it up, and here's what I found...
Pid·geon –noun
Walter, 1898–1984, U.S. actor, born in Canada.
That just doesn't make any sense at all to me, and I really think that it is some kind of clue. I'm just not much of a puzzle solver...
Anyone have any ideas?? |
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kallekelly Suspiciously Absent
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 11
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deagol Thor's Hammer
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Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 1068 Location: No, not here.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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If you google the "pidgeon" version of the quote you get 9 results:
- HoO main site
- HoO myspace
- a HoO-related YT video
- 2 links to this forum
- a possibly independent link titled "The Book of THOTH" which doesn't have the quote anywhere (don't know why).
What's left is
- a user-submitted quotes listing
- a random myspace blog
- an apparently more serious blogger, http://www.jesuslist.com/blog/page/26/
When you google the "pigeon" version you get 120 results, and I didn't see a single one related to HoO. Sure, there's a few random people quoting it, but still...
For whatever reason Google didn't find the 2 links found by the previous poster, so this can't be a definitive conclusion. But in relative terms, it's clear that there are much more references to the grammatically correct quote. I guess the only way to prove it either way would be if someone had a real, physical issue of that 1st number of the 1st volume of his magazine Equinox. |
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Elizabeth Suspiciously Absent
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Western New York
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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if you look at the cache on google at the Book of THOTH it spreads random quotes by Crowley and is very into his teachings. It's just a random quote they use. _________________ So Jonas tell all. Does Bree really kiss like a fish? (fooseball episode) |
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GenocideInMyMind Casual Observer
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Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 106 Location: A commune somewhere in Northern California...
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K23239 Suspiciously Absent
Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 4
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Elizabeth Suspiciously Absent
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Western New York
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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They are probobly talking about the immaculate birth of jesus and mary the virgin mother. _________________ So Jonas tell all. Does Bree really kiss like a fish? (fooseball episode) |
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Elizabeth Suspiciously Absent
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 17 Location: Western New York
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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K23239 wrote: | http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0682074/
All I could find. Look at the years though, compared to Aleister Crowley's life. |
I don't get it. Explain a bit more. I see that Crowley was cambridge and Pidgeon was Boston. Most of Crowley's life was lived before Pidgeon was in the movies. _________________ So Jonas tell all. Does Bree really kiss like a fish? (fooseball episode) |
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garnet Lonely Fan
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Jolly Olde England
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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This could be stating the obvious, but:
Based on Judeo-Christian theology, a dove can be offered as a sacrifice as a means of salvation / forgiveness of sins. Pigeon is sometimes used as a term for a small dove. Both doves and pigeons are members of the Colmbidae family. Furthermore, pigeon rhymes with religion, while dove doesn't.
Jesus (believed by many to be the product of a virgin birth) was also considered a human sacrifice whose death resulted in the salvation of his followers.
In addition, ancient polytheistic societies were known to sacrifice female virgins to the gods as a means of obtaining favor or atoning for past wrongs.
I am not by any means an expert on Crowley, but my interpretation of the quote was that he and his followers would not rely on human or animal sacrifice to obtain favor. Rather, they would use science as a sort of substitute for religious ritual. By striving for a closer understanding of the universe through science, they would be bettering the world and fulfilling their True Will, thereby eliminating the need for sacrifice and atonement.
This is just my interpretation, but that's how it struck me when I first saw it on the website. It leads me to believe that the ceremony Bree is / was to be involved in would not involve killing or blood-letting as a means of sacrifice. Rather, it would involve some sort of dangerous scientific experiment.
Additionally, pigeon is a term sometimes used for one easily duped. Crowley may have felt that he did not want "pigeons" among his followers. Mere numbers were not as important as intelligence. To take this a step further, virgins are often seen as naive and lacking experience. One could go so far as to say that Crowley preferred worldliness in his cohorts.
I really think that pidgeon is just an alternate spelling, especially because it is not capitalized.
ETA: Again, I'm not an expert, but based on the little research I've done, Crowley seems like the kind of guy who would affect archaic spellings to give his words a more weighty tone. _________________ Rosencrantz: Another curious scientific phenomenon is the fact that the fingernails grow after death, as does the beard.
Guildenstern: What?
Rosencrantz: Beard. . . The toenails, on the other hand, never grow at all.
Last edited by garnet on Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cleo Casual Observer
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 95
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: Dove |
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Crowley's quote is a dig at Catholicism. The "virgin" is Mary and the "pidgeon" is the dove. The dove is a symbol for the Holy Spirit in the Catholic faith, the third part of the Holy Trinity. In calling the Holy Spirit a "pidgeon," Crowley trivializes it. Crowley's contrasting what he supposes to be blind faith in Christian superstition with what he supposes to be wise faith in Gnostic science (his teaching). I'm certain that this is the meaning of the original Crowley quotation.
As for the quotation's use on the HoO website, there may be more to it. I enjoy garnet's interpretation, contrasting pagan sacrifice with modern cult science (hardly obvious, smarty garnet). That would be a perfect new context for this quote and quite brilliant if that's where the writers are going with this! |
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JustAnotherLonelyGirl. P. Monkey's Agent
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Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 2094 Location: Boston
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I thought pidgeon is the British spelling of pigeon. _________________ "Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."
-- V For Vendetta <3 |
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loobylou Enthusiastic Fan
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 389 Location: Bonnie Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:42 am Post subject: |
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No - we spell pigeon the same way as you guys! ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) _________________ Can't we all just get along? |
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Nieriel.Manwathiel Owen's Helper
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Joined: 06 Nov 2006 Posts: 1504 Location: Somewhere between here and there
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:53 am Post subject: |
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wow. lookie what i found on dictionary.com
American Heritage Dictionary wrote: |
pi·geon 2 (pĭj'ən) n.
An object of special concern; an affair or matter.
[Alteration of pidgin.] |
(emphasis mine)
Bree IS a chosen one... and there has been talk of a ceremony (some day!!!! )
btw, yep, if this is of any use...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Pidgeon _________________ A watching_watchers-certified POST WHORE! |
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Cleo Casual Observer
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Joined: 14 Jan 2007 Posts: 95
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:04 am Post subject: Affectation |
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garnet wrote: |
ETA: Again, I'm not an expert, but based on the little research I've done, Crowley seems like the kind of guy who would affect archaic spellings to give his words a more weighty tone. |
I agree with garnet here. Alternate spellings are typical of English writers like Spenser and MacPhereson who were attempting to align themselves with past traditions of magic and bardhood. Some scholars believe that even the Anglo-Saxon scribes affected earlier Old English dialects in order to gain authority, which accounts for the previous too-early-dating of Beowulf. Anyway, what I'm saying is, writers, particularly English ones such as Crowley, often add e's to words where they don't belong just to sound old, mysterious, and authoritative. |
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Lurker Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Affectation |
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Cleo wrote: | Anyway, what I'm saying is, writers, particularly English ones such as Crowley, often add e's to words where they don't belong just to sound old, mysterious, and authoritative. |
You mean "olde, mysterious and authoritative." |
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