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Lonelygirl15
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loobylou
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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Location: Bonnie Scotland
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: |
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Is that the doctor guy who gets people to donate their bodies when they die then he 'plastinates' them?
Saw it in London. Some of it really cool - some of it a bit tasteless though.
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spaciegirlreturn
The Order of Denderah
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Location: Jupiter
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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I don't know how I feel about that...it's too early.
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megs229
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Joined: 05 Feb 2007
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Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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I personally really like how the story is going. I am a big mystery reader (mary higgens clark is awesome!) but I am a 20 girl as well. I think that they are doing a great job of mixing up the story. I little bit of something for everyone. I little lightheartedness every few videos right along side the mysterious ones, and suspenseful ones, and the ones that have that little bit of "romance" or however you would like to put it and the action  ones as well. This is like the ultimate movie. It has all the major genres and it is ongoing, you don't sit down for two hours and it's over. You get to watch a little every day. I really like it alot as it is, but then again, that's just me  |
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immortal1
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Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Lurker at some point I'm going to let you have the last word on this, but this isn't it.
| Lurker wrote: | I totally agree with you that those two shows have struck the balance really well, but they had a "monster of the week" formula that LG15 doesn't and couldn't have. And, focusing on Buffy, when there was a single season-long enemy who would have to be dealt with in order for there to be an ordinary life for everyone again, their life outside that didn't get to go on (especially in the last season).
The Order is that kind of enemy. I just don't think there's room for even thinking about "My life after all this" for Bree until the Order is really out of the picture. |
Yes obviously the dynamics for those shows were set up in a way that the enemy was not a constant threat. Buffy could also only fight vampires at night leaving her days free. I can think of a few ways in which the threat of the Order can be temporarily removed and suggested one. I can also think of ways in which Bree would not be under the constant threat of the Order as well. Right now Bree's safe zone is Jonas' house. It's untouched by the Order and it's where Bree's "normal" life exists. You'd have to expand that safe zone. A counter group can be introduced, maybe this even ties in to Tachyon. This counter group can have a network of safe zones around the world- (it might also be a neat way to include and interact with fans.) This network would have to be completely self sufficient making it it's own society in essence. It's similar to how they handled it in the Matrix. Events that have some kind of semblance to normal life would take place here.
| Lurker wrote: | | I didn't say a decline in the show's popularity or its view numbers. I said a decline in Bree's own popularity. Just looking at the comments she's gotten over the last few months (assuming the few hundred people who comment on the forum and in comment sections on the videos are a reasonable representative sample), it seems clear that she doesn't have the favor with the audience she once had. |
There are 3700 registered users at the forum. Much less for the comment board. The YT account has 81,000 subscribers. People tend to post more negative then positive in any forum like this. I don't think it's a representative sample at all. Views are the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter if you love it or hate it if you still watch it.
| Lurker wrote: | | I'm going to have to disagree. I think it's extremely rare for someone to even find a story that can appeal to people across several genres, mustless something that can please everyone. It's not easily done, even among people who are good storytellers. This is why there's a genre market to begin with, and part of the reason those in the media increasingly attempt to personalize everything from news coverage to how they advertise products (and also why issues of Time magazine and Newsweek have shrunk). |
It's definitely rare but not impossible. What to know what is impossible? Changing genre mid story. It's never done.
| Lurker wrote: | I disagree that this is conceptually a scenario in which Bree could logically move on. As I said before, the Order's killed for less than what Bree and her friends know. For them to even consider that they might be left alone as long as these people are free to do what they want would be naive. Even if they're told that, the logical thing for them to do would be to look for a way to kill OpAphid and the rest.
I love peace as much as the next person, but I'm saying that, logically, if Bree and her friends want a life free of the Order, they will have to seek out the means to kill these people. The most logical response to the Order saying "You're off the hook" would be "Great. We've got a little time to freely plan a way to get rid of them." |
"...the logical thing for them to do would be to look for a way to kill OpAphid and the rest." Are you serious? Two kids take on the Order, a organization engrained in every aspect of society. They are going to take down the whole organization? Not only is that not logical it's not remotely feasible!
| Lurker wrote: | | That was exactly my point in saying that when they resolve this why not leave it resolved? I'm sure none of these people want to be doing LG15 forever, so they should put it to rest when it reaches a satisfying break-off point and could end with dignity. |
See you keep suggesting that temporary thwarting the Order would be some final resolution. Winning the battle does not equal winning the war. I feel the final resolution is Bree finding her place in the world again, you think it should be her destroying the Order.
| Lurker wrote: | | That's not what I suggested. What I suggested is that her enemies being gone (and I mean the dead kind of gone) will leave her free to develop. Until that happens, she's not going to be free to, and if she's learned anything from all this so far, it should be that. |
As I stated above, I don't believe her enemies have to be dead for to develop at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you describing a typical heroes journey in which a person who thinks they are small, insignificant and alone fights a great evil, finds an inner strength and conquers it? It's a good story. One that works. Not very original though. I can see that on TV or in movies anytime I want. The unique thing about lg15 should not be that it's told in vlog format. It should make use of that style do tell a more unique story. I think the journey Bree takes to find her place in the world and find her light is important because she can take the audience along with her on that journey in vlog style videos. |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| immortal1 wrote: | | Yes obviously the dynamics for those shows were set up in a way that the enemy was not a constant threat. Buffy could also only fight vampires at night leaving her days free. I can think of a few ways in which the threat of the Order can be temporarily removed and suggested one. I can also think of ways in which Bree would not be under the constant threat of the Order as well. Right now Bree's safe zone is Jonas' house. It's untouched by the Order and it's where Bree's "normal" life exists. You'd have to expand that safe zone. A counter group can be introduced, maybe this even ties in to Tachyon. This counter group can have a network of safe zones around the world- (it might also be a neat way to include and interact with fans.) This network would have to be completely self sufficient making it it's own society in essence. It's similar to how they handled it in the Matrix. Events that have some kind of semblance to normal life would take place here. |
That seems to me like it wouldn't be a solution at all. That's drawing a line in the sand to wage a war. If you want to make comparison to The Matrix, though some semblance of normal life took place in Zion, all of their efforts in that society went toward 1) keeping Zion up and running, and 2) waging the war with the machines. I never got the impression that any of them believed they could just ignore them, or even that they wanted to.
| immortal1 wrote: | | There are 3700 registered users at the forum. Much less for the comment board. The YT account has 81,000 subscribers. People tend to post more negative then positive in any forum like this. I don't think it's a representative sample at all. |
I actually do think it's a pretty good sample size. We get as much or more input than political polls (which gather data about much larger groups), and the media and politicians rely on those everyday.
| immortal1 wrote: | | Views are the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter if you love it or hate it if you still watch it. |
Again, that wasn't about LG15, but Bree herself.
| immortal1 wrote: | | It's definitely rare but not impossible. |
Close enough. Especially at this stage of the game.
| immortal1 wrote: | | What to know what is impossible? Changing genre mid story. It's never done. |
Actually, it is done sometimes. The animes Trigun and Dragonball GT did it. Trigun changed halfway through from a comedy with mostly unrelated episodes to a serious drama pondering philosophical questions of morality and human nature, each episode rolling into the next to complete the narrative.
Dragonball GT changed halfway through from an adventure-travel story with lots of lighthearted moments (and with an apparent massive depowering of its main characters from their strength in Dragonball Z) to more of a martial arts and destructive (on a planetary scale) action-oriented show like DBZ had been (with the main characters suddenly capable of vaporizing cities and mountain ranges again).
Or we could mention ReBoot, which shifted in its second season from a highly "adventure of the week" kind of episodic format (with children expected to be the main audience) to an increasingly dark, mature show through its second and third seasons. Incidentally, this shift occurred after the show's creators realized that most of the fans (at least the more vocal ones) were teenagers and adults. I suspect the demographics of the fanbase was such as it was due in large part because ReBoot was the first fully computer animated television program (breaking new ground in entertainment; that should sound familiar) and because a lot of the pop culture and tech references were probably things teenagers and adults would be more likely to get.
Strictly from a storytelling standpoint, at least from what I have seen, the fans of ReBoot, by and large, consider the first season to have blown chunks. However, with the mature themes, darker characterization, and ongoing narrative that emerged for the second and third seasons, the show was actually voted in an official poll to be the best show that had appeared on Cartoon Network's Toonami block as of December 2001 (winning by a landslide 49%). It beat out everything else, including Dragon Ball Z, Gundam, Sailor Moon, Outlaw Star, etc. That's got to say something.
Anyway, so long as I'm mentioning series that have had genre shifts, I might as well mention LG15 too, which changed from a semi-comedy series of mostly unrelated "webisodes" (which had involved lighthearted banter and usually non-serious subject matter) to a suspense series with an ongoing storyline about a malevolent Illuminati-like organization masquerading behind a religion.
| immortal1 wrote: | | "...the logical thing for them to do would be to look for a way to kill OpAphid and the rest." Are you serious? Two kids take on the Order, a organization engrained in every aspect of society. They are going to take down the whole organization? Not only is that not logical it's not remotely feasible! |
Feasible or not, it's the logical thing to do, because they will not have lives until this is settled. Better than hoping they just go away. And if they can get help from Tachyon and Brother, they'll have a slightly better chance.
Seriously, it's a bleak situation no matter what, and if the choice - after being backed into a corner - is lay on the ground in a pitiful heap and ask the Order to go away or to at least give them hell as she fights back (even if she's going to fail)... well, which looks better to you? This isn't a situation Bree can walk away from. She has to deal with it. It's not fair that she's in it, no, but it's not something that she can change by doing nothing. Trying to actually fight them is her best option. Running all the time has done nothing but get her dad killed and Daniel kidnapped.
| immortal1 wrote: | | See you keep suggesting that temporary thwarting the Order would be some final resolution. Winning the battle does not equal winning the war. |
"Temporary"? "Putting them in the ground" or "leaving them as dust in the wind" is temporary? When I say a final resolution I mean a final resolution - whether that be her own death or theirs. Either one is better than what she's been doing.
| immortal1 wrote: | | I feel the final resolution is Bree finding her place in the world again, you think it should be her destroying the Order. |
Why are you still suggesting that? I've already said that her finding her place in the world should be the ending, but that it isn't something she can ever achieve so long as the Order is a factor in her life. Not ever.
They will never let her go. That's clear. Even if they could no longer use her for the ceremony, they would try to kill her. She will never be free of them, and she should know that by now. It's obvious.
Removing them from her life is a prerequisite for her finding her place in the world and having anything that remotely resembles a normal life. Since they will obviously never leave her alone of their own choosing, killing them is most likely the only way to remove them from her life (unless she can fake her own death).
Just to be more clear, this is what the progression to resolution would have to be:
Order annihilated or Bree convincingly fakes death ----> Bree finds place in the world and lives in peace (resolution)
| immortal1 wrote: | | As I stated above, I don't believe her enemies have to be dead for to develop at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you describing a typical heroes journey in which a person who thinks they are small, insignificant and alone fights a great evil, finds an inner strength and conquers it? |
No. I'm talking about the story where someone is unstable, immature, and really has no idea what they even want to do with their life, but they do know they want to live in peace, yet can't because they have a bunch of relentless dickheads who won't leave them alone. Consequently, in order to focus on the things like stability and maturity, they have to first remove said dickheads one way or another.
If you want to go back to Buffy as an analogy at this point (which I don't mind), throughout the entire last season of the show, Buffy didn't really get to do much developing (in the sense that she got to focus on anything related to a normal life) because her focus had to be given entirely to the war she knew was coming with The First. When the good guys eventually won and all was resolved, the show ended with a close up on Buffy as her sister asked "What are we going to do now?" Realizing that she was finally free to think about things like that, Buffy smiled and we got the final fade to black. I see this as very similar, though I don't see this series ending the moment Bree's enemies are out of the picture. I believe we'll see a lengthy epilogue in which Bree figures out what she's going to do with herself. |
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SharpI
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: | Just to be more clear, this is what the progression to resolution would have to be:
Order annihilated or Bree convincingly fakes death ----> Bree finds place in the world and lives in peace (resolution) |
Um, no. Without writing a small novel, I am on Trainer's side here. There are thousands of other outcomes than "this world isn't big enough for the two of us," don't you think? We see these thousands of other outcomes played out in the real world every day. Lurker, you like comic books and the sort of reductionist story that they often offer. But good luck trying to suggest that's the only way LG15 can go, or should. I think it will - and should - be more like real life, where "one side dead or the other" is almost always (1) unobtainable and (2) unspeakably stupid.
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Lurker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| SharpI wrote: | | Um, no. Without writing a small novel, I am on Trainer's side here. |
That's immortal1, actually. Similar avatar, though, I know. I've gotten them confused a couple of times myself.
| SharpI wrote: | | There are thousands of other outcomes than "this world isn't big enough for the two of us," don't you think? |
No. Have you gotten the impression that OpAphid is willing to be reasonable?
| SharpI wrote: | | We see these thousands of other outcomes played out in the real world every day. Lurker, you like comic books and the sort of reductionist story that they often offer. But good luck trying to suggest that's the only way LG15 can go, or should. I think it will - and should - be more like real life, where "one side dead or the other" is almost always (1) unobtainable and (2) unspeakably stupid. |
LG15 is hardly the real world. Unless Bree gets access to nuclear weapons - or at least a military of significant size - that she can use to stalemate the Order into backing off (and, really, that is how things tend to go in the real world), what's she supposed to do if not try faking her death or killing these guys? They've shown no signs of relenting in their pursuit of her so far, and it's been months. Clearly they want her and aren't satisfied to let her go while they pick someone else to take her place.
For that matter, even should they stop trying to get her to attend their tea party, I doubt they're going to be okay with her going free with all the knowledge she has (both Bree and OpAphid have said that line about there being secrets that certain people have dedicated their lives to keeping secret: "Some things are secret for a reason. There are people whose lives are dedicated to keeping them that way"). I'm not trying to "reduce" the story to anything. I'm making an observation about it based on what we've been shown.
By the way, I take slight offense at that suggestion, as well as the notion that you have insight into the limits of what I like in fictional stories. I also didn't really like the implication that I go in for unsophisticated material. While I'm offering this list, I should probably also say that your suggestion that comic books - which are not all I peruse by any stretch - are easily defined as black and white "reductionist stories" is itself a reductionist classification (ever read Watchmen or The Sandman, by the way?).
Anyway, again, I'm not trying to force the story into any kind of mold. I'm pointing out the mold it's placed itself into. The Order's been presented as a nigh-omniscient organization with extraordinary resources. Worse, they appparently have a lot of patience (they waited on Bree to grow up for 17 years, and they're still after her now), and are as relentless and ruthless as they are patient.
Anyway (again), I'm really not interested in any of this getting more personal than it has, and I don't see why it had to go there to begin with.
Last edited by Lurker on Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ericski
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Joined: 19 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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well, i've stumbled on some really great discussion here, well done both.
just thought i'd throw in the concept like in the matrix, they learned to stay a step or two ahead with tactics and devices both in the real world and more importantly while they were in the matrix. it allowed for movement and activity on a limited basis even right under the noses of the machines. if bree were to enlist jonas and his resources, they could move from place to place in a more proactive way. not just running and hiding and foosball. lots of forum suggestions at those times, like trying to find out more, watching the watchers, etc, would make interesting story arcs, tension, and allow for growth. they don't have to become killers or super spies, just be a little more creative and daring.
great stories end. i'm not sure this is a great story, it was kinda cheesy from the start. a web version of romeo and juliet? maybe. meh.
anyway i remember several shows from when i was a kid that had a person or two against a monolithic invinvcible enemy. they had to keep moving and use the system against itself. bree knows the rules, she has to exploit the knowledge. maybe she is intending to now.
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immortal1
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | Yes obviously the dynamics for those shows were set up in a way that the enemy was not a constant threat. Buffy could also only fight vampires at night leaving her days free. I can think of a few ways in which the threat of the Order can be temporarily removed and suggested one. I can also think of ways in which Bree would not be under the constant threat of the Order as well. Right now Bree's safe zone is Jonas' house. It's untouched by the Order and it's where Bree's "normal" life exists. You'd have to expand that safe zone. A counter group can be introduced, maybe this even ties in to Tachyon. This counter group can have a network of safe zones around the world- (it might also be a neat way to include and interact with fans.) This network would have to be completely self sufficient making it it's own society in essence. It's similar to how they handled it in the Matrix. Events that have some kind of semblance to normal life would take place here. |
That seems to me like it wouldn't be a solution at all. That's drawing a line in the sand to wage a war. If you want to make comparison to The Matrix, though some semblance of normal life took place in Zion, all of their efforts in that society went toward 1) keeping Zion up and running, and 2) waging the war with the machines. I never got the impression that any of them believed they could just ignore them, or even that they wanted to. |
In either scenario I suggested I never said Bree would ignore the Order. The first scenario where Bree gets some sort of Get out of the Ceremony free card would have to be followed by a certain period of time where the Order is not watching or interfering in her life before her or the audience could begin to accept it. In the second scenario where some kind of underground anti Order society exists the point is some semblance of normal life would exist and that provides opportunity to live, learn and grow.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | There are 3700 registered users at the forum. Much less for the comment board. The YT account has 81,000 subscribers. People tend to post more negative then positive in any forum like this. I don't think it's a representative sample at all. |
I actually do think it's a pretty good sample size. We get as much or more input than political polls (which gather data about much larger groups), and the media and politicians rely on those everyday. |
They've done studies that show that the number of people who post regularly at forums is significantly lower than those who register. I disagree that it's a good sample size.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | Views are the only thing that matters. It doesn't matter if you love it or hate it if you still watch it. |
Again, that wasn't about LG15, but Bree herself. |
Same applies. If your hate for Bree doesn't stop you from watching Bree, you're hate is irrelevant.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | It's definitely rare but not impossible. |
Close enough. Especially at this stage of the game. |
Totally disagree.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | What to know what is impossible? Changing genre mid story. It's never done. |
Actually, it is done sometimes. The animes Trigun and Dragonball GT did it. Trigun changed halfway through from a comedy with mostly unrelated episodes to a serious drama pondering philosophical questions of morality and human nature, each episode rolling into the next to complete the narrative... |
Let me first say anime has it's place. I myself have enjoyed Justice League so I don't think it's disparaging to say, please tell me you are not offering anime as examples of the standard for good storytelling. Many things wrong with that but to some degree they are apples and oranges.
| Lurker wrote: | | Anyway, so long as I'm mentioning series that have had genre shifts, I might as well mention LG15 too, which changed from a semi-comedy series of mostly unrelated "webisodes" (which had involved lighthearted banter and usually non-serious subject matter) to a suspense series with an ongoing storyline about a malevolent Illuminati-like organization masquerading behind a religion. |
Are you suggesting this transition was made successfully? I disagree.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | "...the logical thing for them to do would be to look for a way to kill OpAphid and the rest." Are you serious? Two kids take on the Order, a organization engrained in every aspect of society. They are going to take down the whole organization? Not only is that not logical it's not remotely feasible! |
Feasible or not, it's the logical thing to do, because they will not have lives until this is settled. Better than hoping they just go away. And if they can get help from Tachyon and Brother, they'll have a slightly better chance.
Seriously, it's a bleak situation no matter what, and if the choice - after being backed into a corner - is lay on the ground in a pitiful heap and ask the Order to go away or to at least give them hell as she fights back (even if she's going to fail)... well, which looks better to you? This isn't a situation Bree can walk away from. She has to deal with it. It's not fair that she's in it, no, but it's not something that she can change by doing nothing. Trying to actually fight them is her best option. Running all the time has done nothing but get her dad killed and Daniel kidnapped. |
The logical thing to do would be to live in the mountains or some island somewhere outside of the Order's reach. How can you say a course of action with a high degree of failure is logical? Couldn't there be something between running and needless self sacrifice?
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | See you keep suggesting that temporary thwarting the Order would be some final resolution. Winning the battle does not equal winning the war. |
"Temporary"? "Putting them in the ground" or "leaving them as dust in the wind" is temporary? When I say a final resolution I mean a final resolution - whether that be her own death or theirs. Either one is better than what she's been doing. |
I guess I wasn't clear there. I was referring to my suggestion that there's a way for Bree to get a temporary reprieve from the Order and then she can have time to adapt and find her place before reengaging. You say that's not possible the story ends with whatever showdown there is with the Order.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | I feel the final resolution is Bree finding her place in the world again, you think it should be her destroying the Order. |
Why are you still suggesting that? I've already said that her finding her place in the world should be the ending, but that it isn't something she can ever achieve so long as the Order is a factor in her life. Not ever.
They will never let her go. That's clear. Even if they could no longer use her for the ceremony, they would try to kill her. She will never be free of them, and she should know that by now. It's obvious.
Removing them from her life is a prerequisite for her finding her place in the world and having anything that remotely resembles a normal life. Since they will obviously never leave her alone of their own choosing, killing them is most likely the only way to remove them from her life (unless she can fake her own death). |
Except have we not been told that people have successfully left the Order? Maybe someone should investigate that further before going on a suicide run.
| Lurker wrote: | Just to be more clear, this is what the progression to resolution would have to be:
Order annihilated or Bree convincingly fakes death ----> Bree finds place in the world and lives in peace (resolution) |
Ok I've gone back and see where you say Bree finds her place in the world be shown in epilogue. I think that's some of the meat of the story and would be a severe misjustice if it were shortchanged by tacking it on at the end as an afterthought. Like you have said it can't be too long.
| Lurker wrote: | | immortal1 wrote: | | As I stated above, I don't believe her enemies have to be dead for to develop at all. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you describing a typical heroes journey in which a person who thinks they are small, insignificant and alone fights a great evil, finds an inner strength and conquers it? |
No. I'm talking about the story where someone is unstable, immature, and really has no idea what they even want to do with their life, but they do know they want to live in peace, yet can't because they have a bunch of relentless dickheads who won't leave them alone. Consequently, in order to focus on the things like stability and maturity, they have to first remove said dickheads one way or another.
If you want to go back to Buffy as an analogy at this point (which I don't mind), throughout the entire last season of the show, Buffy didn't really get to do much developing (in the sense that she got to focus on anything related to a normal life) because her focus had to be given entirely to the war she knew was coming with The First. When the good guys eventually won and all was resolved, the show ended with a close up on Buffy as her sister asked "What are we going to do now?" Realizing that she was finally free to think about things like that, Buffy smiled and we got the final fade to black. I see this as very similar, though I don't see this series ending the moment Bree's enemies are out of the picture. I believe we'll see a lengthy epilogue in which Bree figures out what she's going to do with herself. |
The LAST season of the show! She did her growing in the 6 seasons prior, went to high school, had dates, had boyfriends, went to college, got drunk, had her mother die, etc etc. Remember this? "Because, okay. I'm cookie dough. I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm going to turn out to be. I make it through this and the next thing and the next thing and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat m-(covers) or enjoy warm, delicious cookie-me, then that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done." That moment can't happen without all the moments or growth prior. I don't see those moments played out the way you suggest it. BTW, Buffy=dramedy=mixed genres=IMO, the standard.
*Mods I'm aware of the nesting and will try not to abuse it. |
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Magesa
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, mellie3204.
Many of my favorite books are Young Adult Fantasy, and they often follow that format. Now, often I do miss those light-hearted videos. But the story is about the loss of her father, and being betrayed by her mother and religion. That's why she's gone through so many phases that have turned many off to her. Now, we all wish that she would do some cute videos again -- but think. If she were to do one right now, the forum would be chalk full of people complaining about "no plot" and "they have to post such a lame video right NOW?!?". So the story is about the Order, in many ways, but it is also about how Bree deals with and her life is changed by the Order, how her life falls apart. Notice -- we watch Bree's videos. Not the Order's videos (usually). I started watching because of the cute videos, but I kept watching because of the plot. But I hope that someday, in happier times, we see another Proving Science Wrong (except with a Bree that has matured from all of this). All good fiction has character change. So lg15 is going to be no exception.
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ericski wrote: | | just thought i'd throw in the concept like in the matrix, they learned to stay a step or two ahead with tactics and devices both in the real world and more importantly while they were in the matrix. it allowed for movement and activity on a limited basis even right under the noses of the machines. if bree were to enlist jonas and his resources, they could move from place to place in a more proactive way. not just running and hiding and foosball. lots of forum suggestions at those times, like trying to find out more, watching the watchers, etc, would make interesting story arcs, tension, and allow for growth. they don't have to become killers or super spies, just be a little more creative and daring. |
I remember back before the motel saga that's sort of what people had suggested. That Bree and Daniel go looking to find out information they could use. Even when Jonas entered the picture, there were some suggestions that they do exactly what you said here (make use of his resources to find stuff out and provide themselves some better cover, if only for a little while). It seemed like a great idea at the time. I wonder if it's too late for that now. Some have expressed that they don't want another road trip-style development.
I think something like that could work as long as they were being proactive, like you say. Not just running and hiding from one motel to the next, but actually trying to spy on or ambush Watchers, find out information, etc.
| ericksi wrote: | | great stories end. i'm not sure this is a great story, it was kinda cheesy from the start. |
Ouch. That's probably the best counterargument to my quoting that line I've seen.
| ericksi wrote: | | anyway i remember several shows from when i was a kid that had a person or two against a monolithic invinvcible enemy. they had to keep moving and use the system against itself. bree knows the rules, she has to exploit the knowledge. maybe she is intending to now. |
We dare not get our hopes up.
| immortal1 wrote: | | In either scenario I suggested I never said Bree would ignore the Order. The first scenario where Bree gets some sort of Get out of the Ceremony free card would have to be followed by a certain period of time where the Order is not watching or interfering in her life before her or the audience could begin to accept it. |
I don't believe the audience would ever accept it. These guys have waited more than 17 years for her, after all, and have refused to give up months after she bailed. If they "stopped watching her," I think we'd all take that as an indication that they still wanted her alive for their ceremony (and actually were still watching). Really, the only Get out of the Ceremony free card they'd be likely to offer is a bullet. If they ever did stop holding out on her for their ritual, there's still that line that both Bree and OpAphid have used about keeping their secrets.
| immortal1 wrote: | | In the second scenario where some kind of underground anti Order society exists the point is some semblance of normal life would exist and that provides opportunity to live, learn and grow. |
Are you suggesting Bree join the Culper Ring like Tachyon and Brother? That's one possibility, I guess, but I don't think a peaceful life would await her. And it would really still be her vs. the Order then too.
| immortal1 wrote: | | They've done studies that show that the number of people who post regularly at forums is significantly lower than those who register. I disagree that it's a good sample size. |
One only needs look at the number of registered users and compare to the number of regular posters to determine that more people register than actually comment, but I'm talking in plain terms of real numbers. Between the forum and the comments sections for the videos, hundreds of people offer their input. 500-1000 people is all they tend to use for political polls and those samples are taken to represent a much larger number of people than the number of people who watch LG15.
Maybe we don't get quite as much as all that, but I think in terms of percentages it couldn't be much of a difference. If I liked numbers I would probably try to study this, but since I have no interest in doing that, I'll leave it here.
| immortal1 wrote: | | Same applies. If your hate for Bree doesn't stop you from watching Bree, you're hate is irrelevant. |
Not necessarily. I for one don't watch because of Bree. I liked her early on, but Daniel was what really gave life to the series in my eyes. After Bree became the most annoying person on earth and I wanted to kill her, I kept watching because of Daniel and because I wanted to see what the Creators would make of this whole thing. Ever since the motel days, though, Bree's behavior has been anathema to me and a lot of other people.
If suddenly Proving Science Wrong was the video du jour once again, while the serious aspects of it all faded away without actual resolution (just to be clear, when I use that term, I mean it in its extreme sense), I think the hate many have for Bree would affect views. Views are, as you've implied, the bottom line, and I think a return to that would hurt them more than continuing to focus on the story that's evolved up to now would.
| immortal1 wrote: | | Totally disagree. |
That's fair. I don't think anyone's managed to do it yet, though.
| immortal1 wrote: | | Let me first say anime has it's place. I myself have enjoyed Justice League so I don't think it's disparaging to say, please tell me you are not offering anime as examples of the standard for good storytelling. Many things wrong with that but to some degree they are apples and oranges. |
How can anime in general be an example of good storytelling? A anime can be an example of good storytelling, but the medium as a whole isn't anymore than film as a whole.
In any event, that wasn't what we were talking about. We were discussing shows that changed genre well after they passed through the starting gate. It's probably worth mentioning, though, that the three I offered as examples did it pretty successfully. Dragonball GT not so much, maybe, but Trigun and ReBoot certainly. Especially ReBoot. 49% of votes in that Toonami poll is astounding.
| immortal1 wrote: | | Are you suggesting this transition was made successfully? I disagree. |
Now that's a fair question. To be honest, no, I don't think it was. That's due in large part to how Bree carried on during the motel saga and ever since. Daniel and Jonas' obsession with foosball for the last few weeks didn't help matters, but I place most of the fault on Bree. It was like LG15 couldn't decide what it wanted to be for a while (again, I think that may be partly because the Creators had the concern you brought up about a few people jumping ship if the stuffed toys didn't show up every other video).
If they'd gone right into it after "On The Run," I think they'd have pulled it off. How about you?
| immortal1 wrote: | | The logical thing to do would be to live in the mountains or some island somewhere outside of the Order's reach. |
I would agree, but the implication is that there is no place outside their reach. If that's true, the choices really are 1) Bree runs forever, 2) she hugs her knees while they close in, slaughtering or torturing everyone she knows or dares to have contact with, her asking them to change their mind all the while, or 3) she takes the fight to them in some way (even if it seems like suicide).
Of course, there is that fourth option (she fakes her death). It seems that it worked for Brother, and they didn't know he'd survived them blowing up his safehouse until he began operations against them with Tachyon again.
| immortal1 wrote: | | How can you say a course of action with a high degree of failure is logical? Couldn't there be something between running and needless self sacrifice? |
Well, I sincerely believe the options are those I've described right above. The only option I can see halfway between running and going down fighting is the laying there in the fetal position while she lets them do what they want to everyone around her and she simply chooses to take no action.
The whole hiding in the mountains or on a remote island thing would be a great idea if the Order couldn't follow her. Short of, again, faking her death or joining Tachyon's group, I don't see how that could be arranged, though (and faking her death seems more attractive than joining the anti-Order).
| immortal1 wrote: | | I guess I wasn't clear there. I was referring to my suggestion that there's a way for Bree to get a temporary reprieve from the Order and then she can have time to adapt and find her place before reengaging. You say that's not possible the story ends with whatever showdown there is with the Order. |
Well, it doesn't end there, but I do still insist that the idea of a reprieve isn't possible. It just doesn't fit their MO at all (their uses for people seem to extend to relentlessly hounding them to come play or actually having no use for them and shooting them/blowing them up).
| immortal1 wrote: | | Except have we not been told that people have successfully left the Order? Maybe someone should investigate that further before going on a suicide run. |
The only person who has told us that was someone who actually hadn't left the Order (Gemma). Other than that, Tachyon's family did "leave" in the sense that they left the commune, but the Order's clearly still a major part of her life. Her every day activities seem to revolve around trying to bring them down. That's the closest to becoming independent of them we've seen so far.
You know, I'm going to back up here for a moment. You've suggested that there might be a superior alternative than simply running, sitting still, or diving in with the intention of either herself or the other people dying. I still say fighting is the number one option, but you may be right that just throwing her life away in defiance is, perhaps, not the best option.
I guess, then, that doing what Tachyon did is. She'd still be fighting, and in the only way that's proven marginally successful up to now. That's the closest to getting away from these guys we've known anyone to do, and it's also probably the best way to do the logical thing (fight them), so I'm changing my mind a little. Joining the Culper Ring really is the best option. She won't get a peaceful life, but the other way she wouldn't have one at all.
...Unless she'd try that whole faking her death thing. I still say that's not a bad idea.
| immortal1 wrote: | | Ok I've gone back and see where you say Bree finds her place in the world be shown in epilogue. I think that's some of the meat of the story and would be a severe misjustice if it were shortchanged by tacking it on at the end as an afterthought. Like you have said it can't be too long. |
I understand your point here. I agree that it shouldn't be something that feels tacked on.
| immortal1 wrote: | | The LAST season of the show! |
Yes, but she didn't get stuck with a relentless, core enemy like Glory until season five, and didn't get a similar one until The First in season seven. Well, that's not true. Angelus in season 2 forced her into much the same flight or fight situation, and through similar means (going after the people she cared about).
Anyway, she got to do all the high school, boyfriends, college stuff way before Glory (the first time she and her entire team were forced to take off away from what they all knew and were used to), because it was still by and large "monster of the week" syndrome then. Bree got her Glory or The First in what is essentially season 1 or 2.
Not the best thing for her development, no, but it's there and she's got to deal with it then before she can get on to other stuff. Buffy would have had to as well if her enemies had been the kind that forced her into a situation where she had to put everything else aside for weeks and months when she was still in high school
| immortal1 wrote: | | BTW, Buffy=dramedy=mixed genres=IMO, the standard. |
It's mixed genres, yes, and it's great at it, but it's not the standard by a longshot. Not even close. It's the rare exception that most shows can only dream they might someday be. Buffy was anything but a case of average writing/marketing. |
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krmurr87
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| I would really like them to stop with the whole "teenage Love and angst" junk before they stop the order...but I think it be more intresting if they were trying to fight the order or figure out the inner details of us and give us some answers instead of "oh i just give up i'll do the ceremony" ...I actually think it would be even more interesting if they would try to figure out where bree is actually from and who her real parents were/are? |
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Magesa
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Wow, Lurker... long post but great post.
My loyalty still lies with Bree. I know that she may not be at her most appealling right now, but I feel that many people on this forum are underestimating her situation. She has lost her father, and her mother and her God have betrayed her. Sure, she should be nicer to Daniel. Sure, she has been immature. But there isn't much else for her to do, and some of this is a result of "really-smart quirkiness", I think. I have personal experience with that.
That said, I'd love to see Bree take action. She's battled with many hard things, and it has taken a lot to overcome them, but it is time for her to step up to the plate and finish her internal exploration and use her new maturity to explore the outside, see what's around her as clearly as possible, gather and share her info, and then apply this knowledge and take action. (I'm sorry for that long, affected sentence.) I like the faking death idea, but I think she'll go with the almost doing the ceremony and then trying a frontal assault, or maybe involving Tachyon.
I hope Daniel gets back to normal, the series misses something with Daniel in a state like he was in the "Miss Me?" video. Such a creepy and hypocritical video. I mean, just the title sends shivers.
I think that we'll have a few months worth of twists and turns -- we aren't near the end yet, but only the end of the "on-the-run" and "hiding-out-with-Jonas" saga. There is another saga to come, and it may very well be the "fighting-the-Order" and hopefully "gathering-information" saga.
We've wanted information basically since we first suspected that there was more to this series to cute (and entertaining) videos. We've gotten some answers, but every answer comes with a million more questions. So, I hope we get some answers, but I'm predicting (and I hope I'm right!) that we'll go on a roller-coaster of great videos with lots of action, answers, and, of course, more questions. Of course, I could be wrong. We could get slow videos, too, but I think the Creators are finally getting down to business.
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SharpI
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: | | SharpI wrote: | | There are thousands of other outcomes than "this world isn't big enough for the two of us," don't you think? |
No. Have you gotten the impression that OpAphid is willing to be reasonable? |
Willing? No. Able? Yes. I'm assuming that the Order is composed of humans. Humans can often be led to see reason, despite their attempts to portray themselves as immune. Organizations are also rarely as monolithic as they attempt to portray themselves. Or at least that's been my experience.
| SharpI wrote: | | We see these thousands of other outcomes played out in the real world every day. Lurker, you like comic books and the sort of reductionist story that they often offer. But good luck trying to suggest that's the only way LG15 can go, or should. I think it will - and should - be more like real life, where "one side dead or the other" is almost always (1) unobtainable and (2) unspeakably stupid. |
| Lurker wrote: | LG15 is hardly the real world. Unless Bree gets access to nuclear weapons - or at least a military of significant size - that she can use to stalemate the Order into backing off (and, really, that is how things tend to go in the real world), what's she supposed to do if not try faking her death or killing these guys? They've shown no signs of relenting in their pursuit of her so far, and it's been months. Clearly they want her and aren't satisfied to let her go while they pick someone else to take her place.
For that matter, even should they stop trying to get her to attend their tea party, I doubt they're going to be okay with her going free with all the knowledge she has (both Bree and OpAphid have said that line about there being secrets that certain people have dedicated their lives to keeping secret: "Some things are secret for a reason. There are people whose lives are dedicated to keeping them that way"). I'm not trying to "reduce" the story to anything. I'm making an observation about it based on what we've been shown. |
I interpret what we've been shown differently. They've hardly hounded Bree or pursued her relentlessly. For the most part, until this Daniel play, they seem to have been content to generally know where she is. I think, based on what we've been shown, that she has some value to them, but I haven't seen evidence that she's irreplaceable. Have you? They don't panic when she goes driving with teens, eats food out of dumpsters, hints at suicide or displays other risky behaviors.
You say you are not reducing the story to anything, except that either Bree or the entire Order must die? As mandated by the current storyline? This is the part I have trouble with.
| Lurker wrote: | | By the way, I take slight offense at that suggestion, as well as the notion that you have insight into the limits of what I like in fictional stories. I also didn't really like the implication that I go in for unsophisticated material. While I'm offering this list, I should probably also say that your suggestion that comic books - which are not all I peruse by any stretch - are easily defined as black and white "reductionist stories" is itself a reductionist classification (ever read Watchmen or The Sandman, by the way?). |
This was never my intent, and I apologize if my words implied otherwise. I would never intend to say or imply that comics/graphic novels are unsophisticated, or that they're all you like, because I know both are not true. I was merely responding to an earlier post when you quoted some graphic novel storylines when talking about resolutions to stories.
| Lurker wrote: | | Anyway, again, I'm not trying to force the story into any kind of mold. I'm pointing out the mold it's placed itself into. The Order's been presented as a nigh-omniscient organization with extraordinary resources. Worse, they appparently have a lot of patience (they waited on Bree to grow up for 17 years, and they're still after her now), and are as relentless and ruthless as they are patient. |
Here's where we disagree, or see things differently. You see LG15 is in this situation: it's Bree vs. Order; one needs to go down.
I would say that Bree is a pawn, currently useful to various operatives and factions within the Order and to various operatives and factions outside of it. The Order is really the Creators' McGuffin, useful basically because it gives Bree and Daniel something to do. It's now McGuffin 2.0, admittedly, because via the ARG OpAphid now has her own freestanding story value. But she's secondary, still a McGuffin. The heart of LG15 is Bree and Daniel and other characters they may care for or who care for them.
If it turns out that Bree's religion has a Pope, and this Pope gives the Order new priorities, so Op lets Daniel out by the side of the road and drives off to do some thrilling ARG stuff, the story goes on. As I said before, in the real world there are thousands of other outcomes than "this world isn't big enough for the two of us," and I think LG15 will go with something that's more like what happens in the real world.
| Lurker wrote: | | Anyway (again), I'm really not interested in any of this getting more personal than it has, and I don't see why it had to go there to begin with. |
Again I apologize for anything too personal in nature. Not my intent.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Magesa wrote: | | Wow, Lurker... long post but great post. |
Which one? XD I overdid it a few times. Thanks, by the way.
| Magesa wrote: | | So, I hope we get some answers, but I'm predicting (and I hope I'm right!) that we'll go on a roller-coaster of great videos with lots of action, answers, and, of course, more questions. Of course, I could be wrong. We could get slow videos, too, but I think the Creators are finally getting down to business. |
That's what I'm thinking too. I expect we could have a good two months to go on that stuff, but that it will be more proactive all the way around (so it won't feel like two months).
| SharpI wrote: | | Willing? No. Able? Yes. I'm assuming that the Order is composed of humans. Humans can often be led to see reason, despite their attempts to portray themselves as immune. Organizations are also rarely as monolithic as they attempt to portray themselves. Or at least that's been my experience. |
What do you have in mind? I personally can't think of anything she could do (threatening to reveal their secrets across the internet might be something, but they haven't done anything about Jonas yet, and I'd assume - were I them - that Bree had already told him what she knew about them).
| SharpI wrote: | | I interpret what we've been shown differently. They've hardly hounded Bree or pursued her relentlessly. For the most part, until this Daniel play, they seem to have been content to generally know where she is. I think, based on what we've been shown, that she has some value to them, but I haven't seen evidence that she's irreplaceable. Have you? They don't panic when she goes driving with teens, eats food out of dumpsters, hints at suicide or displays other risky behaviors. |
Well, I consider stalking someone all the time to be hounding them relentlessly. And then you throw in shooting her dad and snatching Daniel too, and it's much worse.
Anyway, yes, she most definitely has some value to them (the reason they waited all these years and why they're still waiting), but it seems like that value is only accessible to them if she willingly goes through with their ceremony. If she refused so adamantly that it was obvious she'd never change her mind, what would they do then?
As for being irreplacable, that's a good question. We need to know more before we can answer that. But so far it almost seems that way. They might have to wait another 17 years if they tried to. As for the not panicking when she goes riding with Daniel or Jonas, it's not like they're all getting drunk or anything so I don't they should be worried about that (when did she hint at suicide, by the way?).
| SharpI wrote: | | This was never my intent, and I apologize if my words implied otherwise. I would never intend to say or imply that comics/graphic novels are unsophisticated, or that they're all you like, because I know both are not true. I was merely responding to an earlier post when you quoted some graphic novel storylines when talking about resolutions to stories. |
Apology accepted. No harm done.
Which earlier post, though? I can't remember when I mentioned any graphic novels until Watchmen and Sandman.
| SharpI wrote: | Here's where we disagree, or see things differently. You see LG15 is in this situation: it's Bree vs. Order; one needs to go down.
I would say that Bree is a pawn, currently useful to various operatives and factions within the Order and to various operatives and factions outside of it. The Order is really the Creators' McGuffin, useful basically because it gives Bree and Daniel something to do. It's now McGuffin 2.0, admittedly, because via the ARG OpAphid now has her own freestanding story value. But she's secondary, still a McGuffin. The heart of LG15 is Bree and Daniel and other characters they may care for or who care for them.
If it turns out that Bree's religion has a Pope, and this Pope gives the Order new priorities, so Op lets Daniel out by the side of the road and drives off to do some thrilling ARG stuff, the story goes on. As I said before, in the real world there are thousands of other outcomes than "this world isn't big enough for the two of us," and I think LG15 will go with something that's more like what happens in the real world. |
I guess that's a possible development, but I don't think it's an ending. Not really.
Maybe the Creators will do something like that, though. While they probably don't want to do LG15 forever, perhaps they'll want to someday come back to it when they have a bigger budget and could actually get it in movie theatres. If so, they'd not really have any choice but to keep the conflict at work here from having an actual end.
| SharpI wrote: | | Again I apologize for anything too personal in nature. Not my intent. |
No worries. To quote Daniel in the use of his latest dialect: "It's all good." |
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