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[VIDEO] 3-5-07 On the Road Again
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freakish
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Killthesmiley wrote:
freakish wrote:
maybe the manuscript was just sent to jonas' father to correct it..


no

when Daniel says "I think your father is on to something" it implies that he had a hand in writing it.

how do they know for sure it was written by his father?
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ignatzmouse
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cynicar wrote:
Didn't Daniel also say something about how the symbol represents textual criticism and "correction"? If so, it makes me wonder if the Foundation isn't just the Lutheran to the Order's Catholic. A related religious order thats broken off due to differences in theological interpretations.


It's been bugging me to no end that the Order and anti-Order have almost identical signs... if you were setting up an anti-Order, wouldn't you at least put a big red diagonal through the Order sign? Might make for less confusion, tying up of friends, etc.

So, here's my half-baked theory.

As background, one form of textual criticism discussed at our old firend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_criticism is stemmatics, which forms documents into "family trees":
Code:

  A
  |
+-+-+
|   |
B   C
    |
  +-+-+
  |   |
  D   E

meaning B and C are different imperfect copies of A, and D and E are imperfect copies of C. The goal is given a collection of documents, to find the stemma (family tree), which may include some documents that are missing. In particular, the assumption is there is an archetype document sitting at the top of the tree, and that your primary goal is to find the archetype.

Other bit of background from Gemma is that there was a mediaeval order of knights (call them proto-Watchers) that the current Watchers are descended from. As far as we can tell, the Watchers are now part of the Order.

The half-baked theory is that the order and the anti-order are part of the same stemma, with the proto-Watchers as the archetype, i.e.:
Code:

proto-Watchers
     |
  +--+--+
  |     |
Order  anti-Order

Moreover, the anti-Order's view of things is rather different... Rather than an order of knights, the proto-Watchers were a monastic group dedicated to study of sacred texts, and to finding archetypes. The anti-Order view themselves as being the true heirs of the proto-Watchers, and view the Order as being based on incorrect readings of the texts of the proto-Watchers.

As a couple of details:

"The Order in the Modern Empire" might make sense as a manuscript title if the anti-Order regards the Order as an invention of the Napoleonic empire.

We can keep some of our numerology: both the Order and the anti-Order believe that 8-of-12 is important, the Order has reflected this in their Theta=8/Mu=12 symbol, the anti-Order in their Egyptian-2/3 symbol.

Would this make Tau-Phi and Lambda-Sigma other orders descended from the proto-Watchers?

OK, end of half-bakedness. Er, for the moment that is.
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Nieriel.Manwathiel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

8 and 12...

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode08/usc_sup_01_8_10_12.html

http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/kenny/papers/bases.html
(there's a base 8 and base 12)

i tried... i really did...

:will go bounce her oppy ball now in the nice padded room the little men in the white coats provided:
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enigma117
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok - I found some info on R.J.W. Evans, who wrote several books, one specifically about Ferdinand II, and the Holy Roman Empire. See below - I bolded R.J.W.

Also - there were good hits relating to textual critisism and R.J.W. Evans as well.


Early Modern History (1450-1789)

Ferdinand II
Ferdinand II (Holy Roman Empire) (1578–1637; Holy Roman Emperor 1619–1637; king of Bohemia 1617–1619 and 1620–1627; king of Hungary 1618–1625). Ferdinand was born in Graz to the Habsburg archduke Charles of Inner Austria (and was thus the grandson of Emperor Ferdinand I) and the Wittelsbach duchess Maria of Bavaria. More than any other individual, Ferdinand merits being called the founder of the Habsburg Monarchy in central Europe, and he, along with his cousin, Duke and then Elector Maximilian I of Bavaria (1573–1651), stands out as the leading prince of the Counter-Reformation in Germany. Ferdinand grew up in a strongly Catholic household under the watchful eye of his devout mother, and in 1590, shortly before the death of his father, he journeyed to Ingolstadt in Bavaria to study with the Jesuits at the university at which for a time Maximilian was a fellow student. Back in Graz in early 1595, Ferdinand was formally recognized as ruler of Inner Austria by the estates in late 1596, after reaching his majority. In the spring of 1598 he undertook an Italian journey that included a visit with Pope Clement VIII, then in Ferrara, and a stay with the Jesuits in Rome. Both his marriages, to Maria Anna of Bavaria from 1600 to 1616 and to Eleanor of Gonzaga from 1622 to 1637, turned out happily. Ferdinand was deeply religious, affable personally, and a conscientious and hardworking ruler who found his relaxation chiefly in the hunt and in music, which he supported lavishly and with rich results. He sought to combine reason of state with the advancement of religion. Shortly after assuming power in Graz, he embarked on a rigorous, often harsh reformation of religion in Inner Austria that brought thousands back from Protestantism to the Catholic faith and at the same time strengthened Ferdinand politically in his contest with the Estates. From early on in his rule, Ferdinand felt called to restore Catholicism in his lands, a mission encouraged by the Jesuits and confirmed in Ferdinand's mind by the success of his efforts in Inner Austria against formidable odds and the advice of many councillors.

Ferdinand emerged as the natural Habsburg candidate to succeed the childless Emperor Matthias, and in 1619 he was elected Holy Roman Emperor, a year after the Bohemian rebellion sparked the Thirty Years' War. Ferdinand's testament of 1621 indicated his realization that if he was to triumph over his confessional adversaries in the empire and hold the line against the Turks to the east, he would need to create tighter unity among his many territories. He succeeded in establishing his inheritance as a single entity that included Upper and Lower Austria as well as Inner Austria, the lands of the Bohemian crown, and a portion of Hungary. After the dust cleared following the Bohemian rebellion, Ferdinand gradually established a relatively mild absolutism in his territories, with the exception of Hungary, and he generally succeeded in winning over the support of the aristocracy represented in the various estates. He also initiated further Counter-Reformation measures in the Austrian territories and Bohemian lands that would in the long run lead to their recatholicization. Thus he sustained and strengthened what R. J. W. Evans has called the three pillars of the Habsburg Monarchy: the dynasty, the aristocracy, and the church.
Meanwhile, Ferdinand was drawn increasingly into the conflict in Germany. His forces, combined with those of Maximilian's Catholic League, controlled much of north and central Germany by late 1627, where his advance seems to have been dictated by a desire to foster the interests of Catholicism rather than to set up a form of absolutism in the empire, as some have contended. Supported by the Catholic electors and urged on by his Jesuit confessor, William Lamormaini, Ferdinand issued in 1629 the fateful Edict of Restitution, which reclaimed for the Catholics all the church lands that, they asserted, had been seized illegally by the Protestants since the Religious Peace of Augsburg of 1555. This extreme measure alienated Protestant states hitherto loyal to the emperor, especially Saxony and Brandenburg, and helped provoke the successful invasion of the Swedish king, Gustavus II Adolphus, whose victory at Breitenfeld near Leipzig in 1631 reversed the whole course of the war. Ferdinand withdrew from his militant program in the empire with the Peace of Prague of 1635, in which he backtracked on the edict and so won back to his side Saxony and other Protestant states. At the electoral convention of Regensburg in 1636, he secured the election of his son, Ferdinand III, as king of the Romans, which prepared the way for his succession as Holy Roman emperor. Ferdinand II died in Vienna on 15 February 1637 after returning from Regensburg.

Bibliography

Bireley, Robert. "Ferdinand II: Founder of the Habsburg Monarchy." In Crown, Church, and Estates: Central European Politics in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Edited by R. J. W. Evans and T. V. Thomas. New York, 1991.

——. Religion and Politics in the Age of the Counterreformation: Emperor Ferdinand II, William Lamormaini, S.J., and the Formation of Imperial Policy. Chapel Hill, N.C., 1981.

Evans, R. J. W. The Making of the Habsburg Monarchy, 1550–1700: An Interpretation. Oxford and New York, 1979. A classic account.

Saunders, Steven. Cross, Sword, and Lyre: Sacred Music at the Imperial Court of Ferdinand II of Habsburg (1615–1637). Oxford and New York, 1995. Valuable for the general culture of the court as well as for music.
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freakish
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how do you interpret it?
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freakish
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following individuals are commonly believed to be current or former members of Ordo Templi Orientis. Members of the Order may choose to conceal or reveal their membership as they will, and non-members could falsely claim membership. The organization does not routinely confirm or deny membership of individuals.

Kenneth Anger
Violet Blue (porn star)
Isaac Bonewits
William Breeze
Aleister Crowley
Lon Milo Duquette
Gerald Gardner
Karl Germer
Kenneth Grant
Allen H. Greenfield (resigned)
Carl William Hansen
Frieda Harris
Leah Hirsig
Gerald del Campo (former member, resigned in 2006)
Christopher Hyatt (former member)[citation needed]
Charles Stansfeld Jones
Richard Kaczynski
Grady McMurtry
Jack Parsons
Charles Reese
Theodor Reuss
Phyllis Seckler
Grunddal Sjallung
Harry Everett Smith
Leila Waddell
Jane Wolfe
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kjones
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

QtheC wrote:
Using this list of initials:

R.J.W.
K.P.H.
D.L.L.
G.T.K.
O.M.A.
M.B.C.
T.C.M.
J.C.N.
P.S.R.
D.T.A.
C.R.N.
S.B.C.

and the cipher page http://rumkin.com/tools/cipher/index.php

I tried treating the initials as a code, but so far, no luck decoding it as a whole.

I tried using the title "The Order in the Modern Empire" and just "Modern Empire" as keys.

EDIT: corrected O.T.A. to be D.T.A.



just a thought and I haven't tried it myself yet to see if it works (I'm being lazy) could it be a Cesar's box puzzle?
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bubbleteagirl
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kjones wrote:
QtheC wrote:
Using this list of initials:

R.J.W.
K.P.H.
D.L.L.
G.T.K.
O.M.A.
M.B.C.
T.C.M.
J.C.N.
P.S.R.
D.T.A.
C.R.N.
S.B.C.

and the cipher page http://rumkin.com/tools/cipher/index.php

I tried treating the initials as a code, but so far, no luck decoding it as a whole.

I tried using the title "The Order in the Modern Empire" and just "Modern Empire" as keys.

EDIT: corrected O.T.A. to be D.T.A.



just a thought and I haven't tried it myself yet to see if it works (I'm being lazy) could it be a Cesar's box puzzle?


R.J.W.K.P.H.
D.L.L.G.T.K.
O.M.A.M.B.C.
T.C.M.J.C.N.
P.S.R.D.T.A.
C.R.N.S.B.C.

or

K.P.H.D.L.
L.G.T.K.O.
M.A.M.B.C.
T.C.M.J.C.
N.P.S.R.D.
T.A.C.R.N.
S.B.C.

or

R.J.W.C.C.K.
P.H.D.L.L.G.
T.K.O.M.A.M.
B.C.T.C.M.J.
C.N.P.S.R.D.
T.A.C.R.N.S.
B.C.

doesn't look like it...
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QtheC
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad there wasn't a Q.T.C. on the list.

*sigh* I'm out of the loop, I guess.
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Luminous
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enigma117 wrote:
Ok - I found some info on R.J.W. Evans, who wrote several books, one specifically about Ferdinand II, and the Holy Roman Empire. See below - I bolded R.J.W.

Also - there were good hits relating to textual critisism and R.J.W. Evans as well.

......(insert article here).......

Bibliography

Bireley, Robert. "Ferdinand II: Founder of the Habsburg Monarchy." In Crown, Church, and Estates: Central European Politics in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. Edited by R. J. W. Evans and T. V. Thomas. New York, 1991.

——. Religion and Politics in the Age of the Counterreformation: Emperor Ferdinand II, William Lamormaini, S.J., and the Formation of Imperial Policy. Chapel Hill, N.C., 1981.

Evans, R. J. W. The Making of the Habsburg Monarchy, 1550–1700: An Interpretation. Oxford and New York, 1979. A classic account.

Saunders, Steven. Cross, Sword, and Lyre: Sacred Music at the Imperial Court of Ferdinand II of Habsburg (1615–1637). Oxford and New York, 1995. Valuable for the general culture of the court as well as for music.


Fascinating. Even the era is right. 1979 - 1991. Maybe Jonas' father, rather than being R.J.W., was one of the people who was sent a carbon copy by R.J.W. of "The Order in the Modern Empire". Possibly this was a secret, unpublished document investigating the Order that R.J.W. was sharing with a select few. Or maybe Jonas' fathers initials aren't on the paper at all. Maybe this is a secret document he stole from one of the Order's "information gathering" facilities. Maybe his access to this document was the impetus behind Jonas parents demise at sea.
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Killthesmiley
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freakish wrote:
Killthesmiley wrote:
freakish wrote:
maybe the manuscript was just sent to jonas' father to correct it..


no

when Daniel says "I think your father is on to something" it implies that he had a hand in writing it.

how do they know for sure it was written by his father?


Jonas knows his father, meaning he would know his fathers initials. And there is a "By Line" underneathe the title. So using that quote, with the knowledge that Jonas obviously knows (his fathers name) put two and two together. lol
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bethy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way I figure that Jonas' father didn't write the manuscript would be if they also found a note or a journal or something that WAS from his father and it referenced the manuscript.

Al we have to go on is what Daniel said:

Quote:

Hey check this out. It's pretty detailed. Your dad was really on to something. It makes sense that they adopted that symbol...being critical of the Order and all. It's associated with textual criticism and identifying and removing errors from text.



Given the editing of the video, we assume that when he says, "Your Dad" he's talking to Jonas. Daniel never specifically links "dad" to anyone one or anything....and they are definitely leaving a LOT out of the story, that's for sure.
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janesalteredstates
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is reminding me of Council of Nicaea and The Great Schism.

A disagreement over the old texts? It's like a right of passage for any religion.

And then there is the argument that has been going on pretty much since all the Abrahamic religions existed together:

Quote:
Traditionally, Muslims believe that it was Ishmael rather than Isaac whom Ibrahim was told to sacrifice


Family tree anyone?
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bethy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH, heck...even Muslims can't agree in the Ishmael/Isaac thing:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Morin/ish.html
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Nieriel.Manwathiel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bethy wrote:
OH, heck...even Muslims can't agree in the Ishmael/Isaac thing:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Morin/ish.html


yeah, i was gonna say that; what I heard was that recent Muslim scholars traced the lineage to someone else.

But many things of legends with doubtful information have still been copied because of some characteristics they found desirable.

short version; family tree thing might still be possible inspiration.
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