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0168-"Confrontation" 4/06/07
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spiff5000
Casual Observer

Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Northern California

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject:

ApotheosisAZ wrote:

Wisi Girl wrote:

4)Why are the trio posting these videos as public ones!!??? Did Bree not say as they were being chased down the strip in Las Vegas that they shouldn't post videos anymore in order to stay hidden from the Order??? If they are going to continue to post videos, shouldn't they be private or do they want to be seen?!??!

An excellent question, Wisi. I think these videos are made public so that we can comment to the characters on their content. In Character comments are coming alive again.

Perhaps you could use the link I included here to go in character yourself and ask Bree or Daniel why they are posting these public videos.

The trio can't post private videos yet because they haven't established who the recipients of those private videos would be. I suspect a new ARG is in development and we should expect to be selected as "The Resistance" or "The Order" faction members soon through some sort of challenge to test our loyality.

spiff5000
Casual Observer

Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 108
Location: Northern California

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject:

rupaZer0 wrote:

spiff5000 wrote:

Visceria wrote:

I find it kinda funny how only a few videos ago, Alex was all, "Be afraid! Be very afraid! The Order will stop at NOTHING to get you to do the Ceremony, little girl!"

And now she's all, "Look, guys, I know I said, 'Stop at nothing,' but what I meant was, 'Stop at nothing . . . short of violating your own free will!'" XD

It's more than a little wierd! There's really only one explanation for it: the Creators painted themselved into a corner, and now they are trying to change certain elements to fit the new concept of 'factions' (both among the characters and the ARG community) they are introducing. Unfortunately, it will come at the cost of continuity.

But she didn't say anything about making Bree do the ceremony in that earlier video. She said, 'stop at nothing to reclaim your cute little friend.' Reclaim could have more to do with getting her psychologically trapped in Hymn of One so that she is willing to do the ceremony. Although since Alex is a believer, it's more like welcoming her back in the flock from her perspective. I guess the sharp tongue there is anger because she's been treated like a villain.

You could simultaneously be right about the storyline being reworked to fit the ARG, of course. But there's usually a way of thinking these things through that creates a plausible level of continuity.

Well, her "reclaim your cute little friend" comment suggests she doesn't exclude coersion, lying and deception to influence free will. So, then why should she regret the use of kidnapping, drugs and mind-control? It seems like anything would be 'fair game' (see Scientology) from that point of view.

I think that her character has been intentionally changed from malevolent to benevolent (credit to you for that earlier comment) to fit the new storyline.

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject:

spiff5000 wrote:

I think that her character has been intentionally changed from malevolent to benevolent (credit to you for that earlier comment) to fit the new storyline.

I'm inclined to agree with your assessment, spiff. It's the same thing that happened with Gemma, only in reverse: She went from offering advice that couldn't possibly help the Order get Bree to perform the ceremony - and should, in fact, scare her away from them - to being revealed as a malevolent, heartless witch that would be as happy to have Bree killed as she would be to have her do the ceremony.

I would guess that followed as a result of 1) Gemma's actor, Jackie, no longer having time to devote to the series and 2) the majority of the audience that offered input not liking Gemma anyway.

The opposite happened with Alex because - obviously - the actor had time to offer, and - by the Creators' own admission - fan response to the character was overwhelmingly positive, with most either liking her and wanting her to be good or liking her as a cold-hearted villain (either way, she was liked).

Contrived? Yes. But I fell into that first group of Alex fans, and I'm glad to see her more warm. I think it opens up a lot more interesting possibilities for her involvement than if she were just another Lucy or a duplicate of what Gemma became.

wh_pirate
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 26 Dec 2006
Posts: 295
Location: Arizona

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject:

spiff5000 wrote:

I'm guessing Jonas is keeping watch outside the house. They did a similar routine when they broke into her Malibu house.

Duh me. Why didn't I think about Jonas being outside waiting. Of course he didn't/couldn't go into the house because they might not have gotten anything out of Alex, and who knows what he might have done to her.

I know, I will blame my lack of smartness on me being sick. Yeah, that's it.

_________________
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Wisi Girl
Lonely Fan

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 196
Location: Laie, HI

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject:

rupaZer0 wrote:

When was there zero concern? She was concerned in Lying Bastards, and sounding an irritated note of warning in Alex is... It would appear that she doesn't like being treated like a villain by association, and in my view, a lot of her dialogue is an expression of this. Other things, such as torn allegiances between caring for Jonas and caring for the order, feature. Hope this clears things up.

Well, I suppose this is a matter of how you interprete someone's words and body language. As for me, in the "Alex is..." video, she was more than irritated. She was cold and threatening! I would not classify her as a "villian by association" in the least! However, she is torn NOW. It didn't really clear it up but I didn't expect a fan to do that anyway. Half of my post was pure rage! Heh.

rupaZer0 wrote:

Bree doesn't have anyone else to vent on or blame. I don't blame her if emotional trauma gets in the way of constructive action. We're not meant to know who is filming, it's part of the suspense until the next video.

I agree in some respects. She has every right to be emotional. Perhaps I wouldn't be as constructive either in the first moments of approaching Alex. However, after I had finished venting, I wouldn't just sit there, turn to Daniel and shrug! I would begin a more rational dialogue with her in order to get some actual information! And how long must we give Bree this excuse? At one point she must bite her lip and be more like say Tachyon. She cannot be a little girl forever because her situation calls for a different attitude.

rupaZer0 wrote:

They're staying in the car, remember? Jonas' aunt recently told him that his parents are still alive while simultaneously turning out to be in the order he has been harbouring fugitives of. I should think he wants to keep his distance. Yeah, they just waltzed up there. I don't think that decorum was their main concern in this situation.

Well, I didn't use the word "waltzed" in the literal form, anyway. I meant that we didn't see much effort beforehand. There was no set-up at the very beginning of the video to transistion from the previous one, which left many loose ends. I was simply being sarcastic. I didn't know they were staying in the car. To be honest, I don't watch these videos more than once now. I am disillusioned with the series. Sometimes I watch them twice. Anyways, that could be why I didn't know. Thanks! Also, your suggestion of Jonas' absence actually makes a lot of sense.

rupaZer0 wrote:

Many people are watching these videos constantly considering the possibility that they contain further attempts to 'fake out the order'. I think this seems wise while the videos are public. We just have to wait and see.

Well, it doesn't seem like they are "faking out the order" because we see locations and we see their actual activities, such as waiting around in a parking lot for Alex. I am not sure which part is clearly their efforts to fictionalize or hide? Oh, and I hate to wait. Heh.

rupaZer0 wrote:

Interesting questions indeed. We'll have to wait and see. I think that factionalism and disagreement happens in all organisations and religions, though. It's not so strange.

Well, how long should we expect to wait? (I'm not really asking YOU. Only thinking out loud...erm, onto the keyboard?) It seems like 90% of the time we wait with this series. And we never recieve answers, anyway! Occasionaly...."never" is a bit too strong. However, I wasn't implying that it is outrageous that an organization is divided. I realize this is possible! Heh. I meant that it is crazy we know nothing about the Order's many branches.

rupaZer0 wrote:

To be honest, a lot of this has been explicitly explained. The man who shot the man who was chasing her in the desert was a watcher. Where he came from and where he went after is unknown. The man that kidnapped them and the man that was chasing them would appear to be the same man from what Bree and Daniel have said. Maybe someone disagrees with me on that but it seemed we were meant to infer that. We're lost about some things about that scenario because the scoobies are. I would recommend reading the character discussions that went on a couple of days ago for more info on this.

I do realize that what the trio doesn't know we don't know as well. I mean, I don't expect the Order to be very forthcoming with information and if the trio cannot enlighten us than who can? I get that. But things they experienced and witnessed we should know, right? Bree made one comment in refference to the shooting scene and that is it! I just want them to "explicity explain" in videos. I didn't know they were giving answers in the forums. Thanks! I will check it out. However, the creators should know that not all of their fans are linked to this site and within the group of those who are, there are many who only briefly scan one or two threads and that is it! At least, they have one fan who does this! If we are not spending hours and hours on this site, than SOL for us? Not right.

rupaZer0 wrote:

I'm not sure we know anything about their ideology, let alone if there are divisions in it. I would guess that methods vary but the ideological principles behind the actions of the factions remain the same. I'm sure we won't find out what the order is for a long time.

Well, we do know there are divisions in it! OpAphid is not the Order. That is clear. It may be apart of it, though. Alex doesn't seem to know everything just as Bree doesn't. Bree knew next to nothing in the beginning! A watcher shot the kidnapper. We know this! Her fake parents didn't know about all of her training as she told Daniel in the first videos. Remember the Order of Denderah? There are numerous examples that strongly suggest that there are many branches of the Order and not all agree with each other. In this respect, you are wrong. What is the core motivation....I don't know. I know the core of this series is the ceremony. Perhaps that may shed light on the nature of their core principles among the various divisions?

rupaZer0 wrote:

Stay tuned to find out. Remember the matrix trilogy? 90% of the fun was hypothesizing about the answers while waiting in suspense for the final film.

Because when you're telling a story you want to keep your viewers guessing and waiting. If we knew the answers to these questions the series would almost be over.

Are you sure you could 'coordinate' this better than the creators? It takes a lot of research and time, as well as skills as a wordsmith. If you have aspirations to be a screenwriter, I would recommend learning how to express your frustration and confusion without repeating your punctuation in that startling manner.

Sorry, that was a wisecrack. Smart-arsed remarks aside, maybe you could have a go at some fanfic, and we'll tell you if it's more enjoyable than the official story.

But if you really don't enjoy the show, I'm sure you have plenty of work to do. I know I do! So farewell dear wisi!

I have no choice but to keep on guessing. It is not very fulfilling for me as a fan, though. I don't expect the creatos to divulge every answer but they haven't really given any at all! More than half of what we know is from our own theories. Usually the videos are cryptic in their awknowledgment of our theories, and we then assume we were validated and bam! A theory becomes fact. It is very rare that the creators actually provide any information.

I want to excuse my rage once more. I would be successful in producing a more informative series but who is to say mine would be as popular? No, I should give them a bit more credit. You have me there. And I couldn't even if I was serious about my comment because I have a lot of work, too! That is why I miss things like characters visiting the site and discussing who shot whom. I only check the threads for the videos. My life is too full of life to spend more time on this series! Ha ha! However, despite how frustrating it may all be, I cannot leave. So, no farewells!

On the contrary, I would like to extend my warm welcome to the community! I must admit, I was almost sure that the individual to dissect my post would be Lurker but I love recieving new perspectives! You did shed light on some things in a way I wouldn't have done! Thanks! Have you watched this series from the beginning? We needed you in this forum ages ago! Ha ha! Welcome my dear rupaZerO! He he! Feel free to slash apart my posts any time!

P.S. I do not mind the sarcasm. I purposefully used an obscene amount of exclamatory punctuation because I couldn't think of a better way to express my absolute frustration!
_________________

house wrote:

This series is like the Winchester House. Just keep building, but never finishing...

Wisi Girl
Lonely Fan

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 196
Location: Laie, HI

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject:

mincartaugh wrote:

wisi Girl wrote:

I may need a hug

I give great hugs! :)

Awww! Thanks! I appreciate it.

By the way, what does your name mean....And are you male or female? Just curious.
_________________

house wrote:

This series is like the Winchester House. Just keep building, but never finishing...

Wisi Girl
Lonely Fan

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 196
Location: Laie, HI

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject:

ApotheosisAZ wrote:

Wisi Girl wrote:

Just what I needed! Thanks so much!

A bit off topic: Are you from Arizona?
_________________

house wrote:

This series is like the Winchester House. Just keep building, but never finishing...

Leaven
Lonely Fan

Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject:

janesalteredstates wrote:

Quote:

This is a message for your little friend. Jonas, you're very perceptive, not unlike your parents. Smart boy. Because you're smart, I'm not going to beat around the bush. I couldn't have killed your parents, because they're still alive. I think that you should be less concerned about me, and more concerned about what will almost certainly come after me. There are elements within the Order that will stop at nothing to reclaim your cute little friend. As for your parents, they're happy. Who's to say they even remember you? They've been busy, and...so much time has passed.

And now she's "conflicted" and sad? Pfft.
I hope they killed her.

I so agree! haha. Maybe not kill her, but something!

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject:

I thought everyone might like to know that giddeanx has apparently confirmed that Daniel and Bree were still at Alex's place at the end of the video with these two screenshots (notice the counter; it also kind of looks like Daniel's sombrero is sitting there): This, of course, doesn't confirm that Alex is the one holding the camera, but it does lend more credibility to the notion, I think.

JustAnotherLonelyGirl.
P. Monkey's Agent

Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 2094
Location: Boston

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject:

lonelygirl wrote:

rupaZer0 wrote:

I would have thought that she joined the order for religious reasons and identifies with the religious side of it (ie hymn of one) as 'the order' and the scary sides (opaphid, the captors) as charlatans or wayward heretics or something.

I don't think Bree's assertion that the hymn of one is a religious cover-up for the evil order is going to turn out to be fully accurate. It'll probably turn out to be more complicated, with benevolent and malevolent factions. This all ties in with the watchers appearing to be protecting rather than harming the scoobies.

btw I guess I'm mainly a lurker who pops up her hand when she has something important to say Razz

i like this theory
poor Alex. i think she is being sincere in saying she didn't know it was going to happen.

I agree with you. I think some members of the Order (Bree's mom.. maybe Alex) are in it for the religious part of it, they are just maybe in denial that there are evil parts too. Maybe Bree's dad saw it and was able to recognize when the Order crossed the religious line.

I also love the theory that Alex joined the Order to protect Jonas. Really, really good idea. Tell the creators, lol.

Also, I don't understand if she meant literally that the man who kidnapped them wasn't part of the Order. She said "that's not the Order we would never do that" so maybe she meant like "Yes, he's a member of the Order, but no, most of us don't approve of that type of action."

And I also wonder how far Uncle Dan went with Alex.
I think Jonas was filming at the end. It would make no sense for Alex to be filming.
The end of this video was lame.
_________________
"Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof."
-- V For Vendetta <3

ladysolitary85
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 354
Location: California

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:59 am Post subject:

spiff5000 wrote:

ApotheosisAZ wrote:

Wisi Girl wrote:

One word.... TACHYON! Very Happy

I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY want to see private videos sent from Bree to Tachyon, and Tachyon to Bree. Wouldn't that be so awesome?
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Aithne
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:10 am Post subject:

Thanks Lurker, you ROCK!

Kanazaka
Enthusiastic Fan

Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 464
Location: Worth, IL

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:58 am Post subject:

Intense video, but I don't quite agree with Bree's and Daniel's methods of confrontation. They have every right to be angry, but they should have given Alex more opportunities to explain herself. So, good idea, bad game plan. I hope that they talk to her again, but in a less attacking manner (still aggressive, but not purely hateful). Plus, they didn't really ask her questions, and they interrupted her answers. And yeah, the ending was disappointing because it seemed as if they surrendered. If the video ended on Daniel, Bree and Alex sitting in chairs and not talking to each other, at least there would be the possibility of them talking to each other in the next video (or at least a recount of the discussion). Now it's up in the air. _________________ The samurai knows all

Lurker
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject:

Kanazaka wrote:

If the video ended on Daniel, Bree and Alex sitting in chairs and not talking to each other, at least there would be the possibility of them talking to each other in the next video (or at least a recount of the discussion). Now it's up in the air.

Well, they are still at her place at the end, so I'd say it's definite that they'll be talking to her more very soon.

Sami
P. Monkey's Agent

Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 2237
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject:

spiff5000 wrote:

janesalteredstates wrote:

Sami wrote:

I guess they are.. so wth with the "not the order" comment

I have decided for the time being to run with my old belief that OpAphid is not considered a "real" part of The Order which I posted above.

I think OpAphid and Tachyon are history. The Creators are introducing new but similar factions, and are eliminating the tainted ARG from the canon.

Tachyon is history? Nnoooooooooo!

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