http://lg15.com/lgpedia/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=64.251.53.99 2026-04-21T10:49:38Z User contributions MediaWiki 1.24.2 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Nadia&diff=143865 2008-10-01T16:45:00Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>{{stub}}{{Person<br /> | name = Nadia<br /> | image = Ceremony Girl.JPG<br /> | first = [[11:00 AM]]<br /> | last = [[Chapter 2: Bad Decision?]]<br /> | age = Deceased<br /> | birthday =<br /> | myspace = <br /> | email = <br /> | forum-posts = <br /> | youtube = <br /> | revver = <br /> | bebo = <br /> | actor = [[Cameos#Erica_Ibsen|Erica Ibsen]]<br /> | blogs = <br /> | series = LG15<br /> }}<br /> '''Nadia Dalton''' is the ceremony girl [[Jonas]] finds walking around the [[S.S. Hathor's Song]] in [[11:00 AM]] of the [[The_Ascension|Lonelygirl15 finale]]. She is dressed in a white robe similar to the one [[Bree]] wore for her Ceremony. She is later seen in [[4:00 PM]] on a table being prepped for the Ceremony. She appears to have died in [[6:00 PM]], even though Jonas saved her before the Ceremony could be fully completed.<br /> <br /> ==Notes==<br /> *Fans in the NowLive Chat Room nicknamed Nadia &quot;Bambi&quot; before her name was revealed.<br /> <br /> ==Etymology==<br /> *Nadia is a variant of Nadya which is a diminutive of the Russian Nadezhda. Nadezhda means &quot;hope&quot; in Russian.<br /> <br /> {{CharIndex}}<br /> {{LGRCharIndex}}</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Talk:Reed&diff=141993 2008-09-05T16:02:14Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>==Reed==<br /> Since Reed is probably an actor playing Reed in LG15: The Resistance is it really accurate to say that he is played by himself?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 11:38, 4 September 2008 (CDT)<br /> :He himself has stated that he is not canon, and the creators have acknowledged it as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]], 4 September 2008 (EST)<br /> ::There's too much elements that contradicts with that : the fact that depite the &quot;Community video&quot; status of his videos he is not talking at all about the Breeniverse, and he's always on the LG15-lonelygirl15 webpage even though he, I repeat, is not talking about LG15, is a perfect example. And the fact he never really posted on the forum except... to talk about his videos, ignoring the &quot;You're canon&quot; accusations, is weird : a non-canon guy would answer to that eventually. So, ok, he said he is not canon (as a canon should do, &quot;in-character&quot; style), and the creators said it as well (even though they are members of the &quot;Reed is canon&quot; group on Facebook (with Alexandra Dreyfus)), but I don't think it would be a good idea to &quot;trust&quot; it. Didn't the creators said to the press that it will be more interactivity ? If so, a &quot;community member&quot; isn't a perfect in-character to improve interactivity ? I'm not saying we sould say Reed is canon, or Reed is not canon. All I'm saying is we don't know, and I think the creators would cover their &quot;surprise&quot; if Reed is really canon. So, we better advance hypothesis and not saying things &quot;for certain&quot;. [[User:MrTriangleRenversé|MrTriangleRenversé]] 16:21, 4 September 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::He is sooo canon. Just watch--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:42, 4 September 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::Quote from him : &quot;''um… wow. i had no idea they’d feature my second vid… of course, it may not have helped that I bugged the crap out of Amanda to do so. yes, perhaps I am cannon… perhaps not… if I see Jonas or Sarah around Chicago, I’ll let you guys know.''&quot; (source : LG15 Today). He is not saying he is not canon anymore... [[User:MrTriangleRenversé|MrTriangleRenversé]] 03:34, 5 September 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::The fact that he mentioned Amanda seems to indicate that he's not canon, as he's acknowledging that the show isn't real --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:01, 5 September 2008 (EST)</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Politics_Gone_Wild!&diff=124303 2008-05-01T15:51:44Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>{{Blog<br /> | name = {{PAGENAME}}<br /> | number = 472<br /> | image = <br /> | caption = <br /> | blogger = Daniel<br /> | date = 20080501<br /> | url = {{KM|307}}<br /> | forumid = 17249<br /> | length = 7:11<br /> | description = We almost had him until Steve screwed it up! What a mess!<br /> | location = A hotel<br /> | tags = {{tags|}}{{tags|}}<br /> <br /> &lt;!-- Production Credits leave blank after &quot;=&quot; if data is not available --&gt;<br /> | execprod =<br /> | coexecprod =<br /> | assocprod =<br /> | serprod =<br /> | producers =<br /> | lineprod =<br /> | supprod =<br /> | directors = <br /> | camera =<br /> | vidplay =<br /> | headwriter =<br /> | story =<br /> | editor =<br /> | pm =<br /> | ps =<br /> | pa =<br /> | pr =<br /> | ipa =<br /> | animation =<br /> | prodserv =<br /> | music supervisor =<br /> <br /> | song =<br /> | cast =<br /> {{VidChar|Daniel}}<br /> {{VidChar|Steve}}<br /> {{VidChar|Nikki}}<br /> {{VidChar|Jennie}}<br /> {{VidChar|Gina}}<br /> {{VidChar|Jonas}}<br /> {{VidChar|Security guard|}}<br /> {{VidChar|Security guard|}}<br /> {{VidChar|Politics Gone Wild!{{!}}Speaker|}}<br /> {{VidChar|Edward Salinas|}}<br /> {{VidChar|Lucy}}<br /> {{VidChar|Politics Gone Wild!{{!}}Supporter|Lonelygirl15 cameos#Fan Cameos{{!}}Daniel Weiss}}<br /> <br /> | Previous = Computer Penetration<br /> | Next = <br /> | NextB = <br /> }}<br /> {{Crossover<br /> |series = km<br /> |epnum = 249<br /> |eplength = 7:11<br /> |epdate = 20080501<br /> }}<br /> <br /> ==Transcript==<br /> {{transcript incomplete}}<br /> <br /> ==Notes==</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Gina&diff=123824 2008-04-29T15:48:48Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>{{Person<br /> | name = Gina<br /> | image = Gina Season3.jpg<br /> | actor = [[Crystal Young]]<br /> | first = [[Who's that girl?]]<br /> | last = [[Hot Tacos]]<br /> | age = {{age|19870306}}<br /> | birthday = Sometime between October 26th, 1986 and March 6th, 1987<br /> | color = Magenta<br /> | blogs = [[:Category:Gina's blogs|List of Gina's blogs]]<br /> }}<br /> '''Gina''' (born '''Yevgeny''' and also known as '''Patient #11''') is a trait positive girl and older sister to [[Bree]]. She was born in Siberian Russia, near Lake Baikal. She and Bree were bought from their mother by [[Dr. William Porter]].<br /> <br /> ==Background==<br /> ===The Hart Study===<br /> Gina was first seen on VHS tapes left [[Would you pick me up?|for Jonas]] outside of his motel room. She was in [[Doctor Visit|isolation]] in a [[minor locations#a hospital|hospital]], where she was being treated by [[Dr. Calvin Hart]]. Though she was not one of the genetically-altered trait positive girls that Dr. Hart was trying to keep alive, she was the control for the [[Hart Study]]. <br /> <br /> Even though it was [[Her Body, Her Blood|revealed]] that Dr. Hart wasn't telling the full truth, it's still clear that Gina was once afflicted with an ailment that caused her difficulty to breathe. She often had coughing fits, and [[Doctor Visit|once]] even stopped breathing altogether. To help with the situation, Dr. Hart [[Who's that girl?|gave her]] a green pill, which helped slightly, although side effects did include diarrhea, chills and vomiting. In [[Shocking Discovery]], Gina seemed to have developed a rash on her upper back, similar to the one Emma got in [[Eat Pie]]. <br /> <br /> Much of Gina's past continues to remain a mystery, partly because it's been revealed that Gina's memory has been [[Babe in the Woods|scrambled]] due to all the experiments that the Hart Study did to her.<br /> <br /> ===Her Rescue===<br /> While Dr. Hart claimed that Gina died at the age of fifteen, it was revealed in the episode [[KIDNAPPED!]] that Gina is very much alive, shown getting out of Lucy's car and running toward Dr. Hart. She had been, in fact, held captive by [[Dr. William Porter]]. An [[Elder]] of the Order, Dr. Porter had every intention to use Gina in an upcoming Ceremony, unless Dr. Hart could provide another trait positive girl. His study was a failure, as he was unable to produce a genetically-altered trait positive girl. This compelled him to make a deal with the Order: Emma's life for Gina's.<br /> <br /> When [[Bloodlines: Part 2|Daniel came to save Emma]] from [[Dr. William Porter]]'s abandoned hospital, Daniel took Gina instead of Emma, having heard from Dr. Hart that he was not going to go through with the Ceremony, and would instead sacrifice himself to save Emma.<br /> <br /> ===Teaming Up with the TAAG===<br /> After the events of the Ceremony, [[She Lost A Lot Of Blood|Gina left with the others]] and [[Up All Night|lived with them]] in [[Minor locations#Rented Cabin at Big Bear Lake|the rented cabin]]. Although she [[4 Girls, 2 Guys|didn't seem to want to get involved too much]], even going so far to [[Playing With Wood|build a bench]] just to get away from the others, it was later revealed that, she was the one [[Things Fall Apart|who gave Emma money]] to buy a train ticket to [[I Love You All|see her parents]].<br /> <br /> Gina has also developed a rocky relationship with [[Sarah]] as a result that Sarah has occasionally come to the conclusion that Gina may have feelings for Daniel and/or vice-versa. Sarah later violated Gina's privacy by posting her torn up pictures on the forum and asking fans if they could put the pieces back together. Though Sarah [[Hangover Hell|claimed innocence]], based on the fact that the drawings were mostly of fruit and flowers, the TAAG soon discovered that Gina also drew [[Bree's parents|Bree's mother]]. Unfortunately, Gina's scrambled memory continued to hide any other information about the wayward parent.<br /> <br /> After the group saw a [[Coming For You|threatening video]] from [[Dr. William Porter]]'s [[Shadow]], Gina [[Spicing Things Up|mysteriously disappeared]]. When Daniel and Jonas went [[Looking for Gina|looking]] for her, they found her at Bree's old house. Gina said that she could remember coming to that house to play when she was a child. After this, Gina decided she wanted to search for Bree's mom to find answers, [[She's Ready|telling]] us she would be in chat to discuss it. When all was discussed by TAAG, they split into two groups; Gina with Jonas and Jennie who were planning to hunt for Bree's mom, and Daniel and Sarah who refused and decided to stay behind.<br /> <br /> While Jonas and Jennie got ready to find Bree's mom, Daniel and Sarah talked in the living room. Gina began [[What Have I Done?|to feel guilty]] for splitting TAAG up.<br /> <br /> ===Finding Answers===<br /> A few days later, TAAG spent some time together [[At the Beach]], where Jonas and Daniel talked. They decided not to split up and to come up with a solid plan to find Bree's mom before heading out. Jennie determined that the closest route to finding Bree's Mom was through Sarah's ties to the Lullaby Project. Gina and the others were shocked when Sarah revealed that she had relations with Carl, the later of whom later arrived at their doorstep, claiming he had left the Hymn of One. Gina and the others become wary of Carl's intentions, but accept his help with locating Bree's Mom.<br /> <br /> They manage to locate Elizabeth as she exits a meeting of the Verdus board of directors, but the encounter ends badly, with Gina getting captured. However, she is returned safely to the house hours later, only vaguely remembering what had happened. She was given a disk containing footage of Gina playing with Bree and Elizabeth as a young child, making Gina all the more eager to find answers regarding her past. When Elizabeth contacts TAAG to set up a meeting with Gina, Gina decides to go to the meeting alone. She learns that Elizabeth had been doing what she could to protect Gina after she failed to save Bree. The meeting is cut short, however, when someone tries to steal Gina's bag.<br /> <br /> ==Personality==<br /> In the seven year old VHS tapes, it was clear that Gina enjoyed music, and was often heard to hum. She had a particular interest for the song &quot;Piano Man&quot; by Billy Joel, and became very excited when she heard she was going to be able to sneak out of the hospital and go to a Billy Joel and Elton John concert. It remains [[Get Your Freak On|unclear]] whether or not Gina was able to go to that concert.<br /> <br /> After meeting [[Jonas]], Dr. Hart [[Evil Drug Company Exposed!|also expressed]] that for the first 13 years of her life, Gina was very happy and strong, but by the (apparent) end, she got tired of being &quot;locked up like a lab rat.&quot;<br /> <br /> Gina has been revealed to be very artistic. Since joining with the TAAG, Gina has shown her talents at wood-working as well. In the video “[[Playing With Wood]]”, Gina built a fine bench by hand. She also has a knack for drawing, which she says [[I've Never Done This Before|helps her to make sense of her scrambled memories]].<br /> <br /> ==Etymology==<br /> Though it's the masculine form of the name, Dr. Hart [[Bloodlines: Part 4|revealed]] in his last video that Gina's original name was once Yevgeny. (The feminine form is Yevgeniya). In either case, the name is a Russian form of the name Eugene/Eugenia. This name comes from the Greek roots for &quot;well born.&quot; [http://www.behindthename.com/name/eugene] (A suitable name for a trait positive girl.)<br /> <br /> ==Theories==<br /> {{theories|Gina}}<br /> <br /> {{CharIndex}}<br /> {{KateCharIndex}}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Seen characters]]</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=File:Zoeyiswatching-002.jpg&diff=119480 2008-04-09T15:54:27Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Cassie UGC Images]]</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=File:Zoeyiswatching-002.jpg&diff=119479 2008-04-09T15:54:15Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>{{delete|This page has been marked for deletion due to the current UGC/Fanfic Revamp project on LGPedia. Please see [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|here]] for further information.}}<br /> [[Category:Cassie UGC Images]]</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Clore%27s_Shadow&diff=118815 2008-04-07T16:43:57Z

<p>64.251.53.99: Added Links in page</p> <hr /> <div>{{Person <br /> | name = Michelle Clore's Shadow<br /> | first = [[Resolution]]<br /> | last = [[Precious Blood: 10PM]]<br /> | image = MCloreShadow.jpg<br /> | age = <br /> | birthday = <br /> | youtube = <br /> | revver = <br /> | myspace = <br /> | forum-posts = <br /> | bebo = <br /> | actor = [[KateModern cameos#Mike GLC|Mike GLC]]<br /> | color = #ae2301<br /> }}<br /> The '''[[Shadow]] of [[Elder]] [[Michelle Clore]]''' was first seen during [[Terrence]]'s [[Resolution|siege]] of the Hymn of One's London Centre. He [[Her Alibi|shows up]] wherever Michelle does and doesn't take kindly to those who interact with her. Along with [[Kate's Watcher]] he [[Precious Blood: 10PM]] pursues [[Terrence]] after he [[Precious Blood: 5PM|spills too many secrets]] about the inner workings of the Order. He is last seen chasing after Terrence, although his fate remains unclear after Kate's Watcher is [[Precious Blood: 10:30PM|murdered]] by Terrence in the pursuit.<br /> <br /> ==See Also==<br /> *[[Shadow]]s<br /> <br /> {{KateCharIndex}}</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=KateModern&diff=118814 2008-04-07T16:07:16Z

<p>64.251.53.99: updating cast list</p> <hr /> <div>{{Show<br /> |image = KM Whodunnit.jpg<br /> |creators = [[Miles Beckett]] and [[Greg Goodfried]]<br /> <br /> |cast ={{Show/row|Charlie|Tara Rushton}}<br /> {{Show/row|Gavin|Ralf Little}}<br /> {{Show/row|Julia|Lucinda Rhodes Flaherty}}<br /> {{Show/row|Steve|Giles Alderson}}<br /> {{Show/row|Lee|Sam Donovan}}<br /> {{Show/row|Lauren|Emma Pollard}}<br /> {{Show/row|Sophie|Pippa Duffy}}<br /> {{Show/row|Michelle Clore|Valerie Cutko}}<br /> {{Show/row|Terrence|Matthew Gammie}}<br /> {{Show/row|[[Rupert Van Helden{{!}}Rupert]]|Ronan Summers}}<br /> |former = {{Show/row|Kate|Alexandra Weaver}}<br /> {{Show/row|Tariq|Jai Rajani}}<br /> {{Show/row|Dudley|Liam Reilly}}<br /> {{Show/row|[[Dr. William Griffin|Dr. Griffin]]|Gene Foad}}<br /> {{Show/row|Patricia|T'Nia Miller}}<br /> |crew = {{Show/row|Director|[[Gavin Rowe]], [[Luke Taylor]], [[Yusuf Pirhasan]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Executive Producer|[[Greg Goodfried]], [[Miles Beckett]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Co-Executive Producer|[[Amanda Goodfried]], [[Joanna Shields]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Series Producer|[[Louis Figgis]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Line Producer|[[Kelly Brett]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Production Co-ordinator|[[Claire Finbow]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Interactive Co-ordinator|[[Jonathan Almond]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Production Runner|[[Meryl Iona Edwards]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Editor|[[John Palmer]], [[Yusuf Pirhasan]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Head Writer|[[Luke Hyams]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Writers|[[Neil Mossey]], [[Lawrence Tallis]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Vidplays by|[[Luke Hyams]], [[Neil Mossey]], [[Lawrence Tallis]]}}<br /> {{Show/row|Animator|[[Ricky Martin]]}}<br /> <br /> |headercolor = #ae2301<br /> |headerfont = #eee<br /> }}<br /> '''KateModern''' is the first major spin-off of [[lonelygirl15]]. The series, which was announced on April 16th, began filming on July 9th and the first video, [[Fight and Flight]], was released on July 16th. The show is hosted on the social-networking site [[Bebo]]. It is currently running in its second season and is now entitled '''in the name of ...KateModern'''.<br /> <br /> KateModern is set in London. Its original premise revolved around an art student, [[Kate]], and her friends [[Charlie]], [[Tariq]] and [[Gavin]]. Similar to [[Bree]] in lonelygirl15, Kate was revealed to be [[trait positive]] and was hunted by [[the Order]]. Kate was murdered in January 2008 and in April 2008, [[Terrence]] was [[Precious Blood|revealed]] to have murdered her.<br /> <br /> KateModern videos first appear on Bebo and [[lg15.com]], then with a delay of at least 24 hours on [[YouTube]].<br /> <br /> ==Behind The Scenes Videos==<br /> *{{bebo|4615266351|Miles and Greg entertain the KM Production Team!!!}}<br /> *{{youtube-user|insideKateModern}}<br /> <br /> ==See also==<br /> *[[Portal:KateModern]]<br /> *[[KM Behind The Scenes]]<br /> <br /> ==References==<br /> * [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7ee9ce6c-ebb6-11db-b290-000b5df10621.html Bebo hires troubled teenager to raise revenue], By Maija Palmer, Financial Times. April 16 2007. <br /> * [http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003571839&amp;imw=Y Hollywood Reporter] on KateModern. April 16 2007.<br /> * [http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-lonelygirlspinoff-16apr16,1,3342735.story?coll=la-headlines-entnews&amp;track=crosspromo ‘Lonelygirl15’ spawns sister series], by Deborah Netburn, Los Angeles Times. April 16, 2007.<br /> * [http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2007/07/katemodern-productions-q.html Exclusive interview with LG15Today Blogspot]<br /> [[Category:KateModern|*]]</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=LGPedia:Lucy%27s_Balcony/Fanfic_revamp&diff=114737 2008-03-24T16:04:41Z

<p>64.251.53.99: /* Flock Regulations */</p> <hr /> <div>:'''''As per suggestion from the administration, Phase 1 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp has been started. Please do &lt;u&gt;not&lt;/u&gt; initiate any further discussion - any late concerns with the current Tier listing can be addressed in later requests for re-evaluation.''' Click [[#Schedule|here]] for further information on the process.''<br /> <br /> Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.<br /> <br /> ==Glossary==<br /> {|width=&quot;50%&quot;<br /> !style=&quot;width: 6em;&quot; valign=&quot;top&quot;|Tier 1<br /> |Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)<br /> |-<br /> !valign=&quot;top&quot;|Tier 2<br /> |Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.<br /> |-<br /> !valign=&quot;top&quot;|Tier 3<br /> |Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.<br /> |-<br /> !valign=&quot;top&quot;|Tier 4<br /> |Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)<br /> |-<br /> !valign=&quot;top&quot;|Tier 5<br /> |Tier 5 Fanfic are all &quot;big&quot; series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Criteria==<br /> The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?<br /> <br /> Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:<br /> *Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)<br /> *Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)<br /> *How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)<br /> *How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)<br /> *How many views do the videos of the series have on average?<br /> *How many episodes does the series have?<br /> *How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)<br /> *How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)<br /> *And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)<br /> *''[Please expand this list]''<br /> <br /> ==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==<br /> *[[The 707 clique]]<br /> *[[Aaronbeast]]<br /> *[[Acrowleyorder]]<br /> *[[ApotheosisAZ]]<br /> *[[Breeiswaiting]]<br /> *[[Brucker]]<br /> *[[Bubbleteagirl]]<br /> *[[Cassie UGC]]<br /> **[[Cassieiswatching]]<br /> **[[itscassie]]<br /> **[[breeiswaiting]]<br /> **[[cassieresurrection]]<br /> **[[frankiswaking]]<br /> **[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]<br /> *[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]<br /> *[[Deemontreal]]<br /> *[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]<br /> *[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]<br /> *[[The Flock]]<br /> *[[Fourthface]]<br /> *[[GuillotineCalamity]]<br /> *[[HOOBS]]<br /> *[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]<br /> *[[Immant]]<br /> *[[Iris2009]]<br /> *[[Iris network|The Iris Network]]<br /> *[[Itscassie]]<br /> *[[Kelseygirl15]]<br /> *[[TheLadyLazarus]]<br /> *[[Lonelydude15]]<br /> *[[lonelygirl362436]]<br /> *[[LonelyJew15]]<br /> *[[LonesomeOctober]]<br /> *[[LordGreystoke422]]<br /> *[[Maccaboy17]]<br /> *[[Maddison Atkins]]<br /> *[[Marbella]]<br /> *[[Masonishappy]]<br /> *[[MessyNessy89]]<br /> *[[Mission Anchor Cove]]<br /> *[[MsBlackBetty]]<br /> *[[N3ural N3t]]<br /> *[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]<br /> *[[OpAphid]]<br /> *[[OpScorn]]<br /> *[[Paulmark18]]<br /> *[[ProjectStatic]]<br /> *[[Redearth88]]<br /> *[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]<br /> *[[Sarahsnotebook]]<br /> *[[StormFaction]]<br /> *[[Scdgoofy]]<br /> *[[TWJaniak]]<br /> *[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]<br /> *[[Xeniph]]<br /> <br /> ==Suggested Tiers==<br /> :''Please see [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List]]. Do not edit that page, though.''<br /> <br /> ==Mission==<br /> We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)<br /> :~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ==Free for all comment space==<br /> Add your comments and opinions below this line.<br /> <br /> ===Starting Fresh, Perhaps===<br /> So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)<br /> <br /> Anywho, the listings:<br /> <br /> '''Tier 1:''' [[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]<br /> <br /> '''Tier 2:''' [[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[masonishappy]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)<br /> <br /> '''Tier 3:''' [[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]]<br /> <br /> '''Tier 4:''' [[lonelygirl362436]], [[The Flock]] (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]<br /> <br /> '''Tier 5:''' [[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]<br /> <br /> Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :I think they are more fair. Definitely a better starting point for discussion. I have no objections.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :No objections, Zoey. Let's do it!! --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 28:54, 26 February 2008 (EST)<br /> :I concur. Although, some of the Tier 3 listings are currently being upkept as Tier 2s... Are they going to be expanded more? I still maintain my opinion that only Tier 5 videos should have transcripts, but since I seem to be the voice of the minority, I suppose we can expand it to two. (We do need to set a firm line, though.)<br /> :I will also say that anything Tier 3 or above should get some actual content regarding the SERIES, and not solely the videos. I think if we can't get that together, it should bump it down a bit in the rankings.<br /> ::''Also, I think I should add, as I explained in the chat (and apparently neglected to do so above) my earlier listing was not meant to be definitive in any way, and was simply thrown together based on what little I knew of the series, and what content was available. I just wanted to put them out there for discussion.''<br /> :Once the tiers get hashed out, we should archive the discussion and go on to discussions on how exactly to change each series page for the better. They '''all''' could stand some serious work. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:00, 26 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :#When you say &quot;consisting of...&quot;, does that mean we'll unify all sub-series on one page? i.e., have only one Cassie UGC page then, not separate *cassie* pages?<br /> :#Have you checked whether any series has something special that'd bump them up, being featured in the Community Appreciation Week or something, for example?<br /> :#Will we make The Flock Deal a general offer?<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:24, 26 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :I think Zoey's proposal is proably the fairest one I've seen so far. As someone who spends a lot of their time on the fanfic area of the LGPedia, and as a fan of many of the UGC series out there. I will say this: I think every three months or so there should be a place where people can state their case for why something should change tiers or not. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 27 February 2008 (EST)<br /> :No objections on my end, Zoey. :) And I really like that idea, FH14 -- who's to say every show is going to be the same forevermore?? -- --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 11:55, 27 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :well, i wanted to try to get iris2009 page into tier 2, no admin besides Jay and Owen and TWj have ever touched it, my fans along with me have cared for the page..all i ask is to keep the 1 page...--[[User:Iris2009|TJ Marsh]] 21:38, 28 February 2008 (CST)<br /> ::I can see the reasoning behind a bump-up, especially since the Iris page hasn't gotten horribly over-blown. I can also see an argument for making it Tier 1. I dunno, I could go either way on this, to be honest. (If it does get bumped to Tier 2, I think the page is going to need some rearranging or something; half of the stuff in the introduction isn't really &quot;intro&quot;.) I'll wait to see what other people think. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:03, 28 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :::if its not too late, i would vote for iris2009 to be tier 2. to be honest, though, there are a number of series currently listed in tier 1 that i would favor leaving a separate page for. Those would probably be: [[Aaronbeast]] (he did multiple videos, and has been referenced by the creators in public talks), [[Breeiswaiting]] (this video was created by the creators, i am 99% sure), [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]] (because its a story of its own), [[Iris2009]] (multiple videos, subject of controversy over time), [[Kelseygirl15]] (possibly. these are mostly spoofs, but there are a number of them), [[TWJaniak]] (because he is TWJ and a god of lg15 history). Of the others i either didn't follow them and can't comment, or I believe the tier 1 designation is correct. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)<br /> ::::Can you back any of this up or elaborate on it?<br /> ::::Why do you want Iris on Tier 2, even though he himself wanted it deleted just last week? (Multiple videos is true for ''all'' series - otherwise, they wouldn't be series. And what is this controversy you reference, other than his constant claims to and attempts to become canon?<br /> ::::Where/when did the Creators reference Aaronbeast?<br /> ::::Can you prove Breeiswaiting was done by the Creators, or at least show us your evidence?<br /> ::::How is &quot;a story of its own&quot; notable, given that that is true for most fanfic?<br /> ::::Although I like Kelsey, the ground rules specifically state that singular videos without a connecting story arc do not count as fanfic series. There are plans for a &quot;Notable fan videos&quot; page where Kelsey's videos might find a place.<br /> :::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:18, 5 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> :::::Renegade: I'll try. <br /> :::::1. Iris shouldn't be the judge of where he should be, though his opinion should be considered. Does he want to be deleted now, or just want one page? And by controversy, yes, I mean his continuing attempts to claim canonhood. Evidence of that is all over the Breeniverse, its noteworthy in my head for that. People say lg15 was a &quot;new art form,&quot; but iris is to me. I know others might disagree. Plus, I just like the guy. Sue me.<br /> :::::2. In the FITC talk the creators gave in Toronto in April 2007, they referenced &quot;the fan&quot; who has created a series of videos as Daniel's brother. I remember that one because I watched it for the first time recently. I believe they mentioned that same basic thing at other conferences. Does that along make Aaronbeast deserve his own page? Maybe not, but I put it out there.<br /> :::::3. Breeiswaiting. The breeiswaiting video was the first video response posted and accepted for &quot;The Ceremony,&quot; (just a few hours later), and clearly shows where the ceremony was. When Nikki Bower debuted a few weeks later, she made a number of attempts (there are forum posts) to get people to watch the Breeiswaiting video and suggested there was something at the ceremony location to find. Then, when no one went, she went herself and found the box with the Watcher symbol and made a video about it. She credited the breeiswaiting video for helping her find it on the forum. It was only discovered a few months later that Nikki was being done in connection with Amanda. I have never directly asked the C's if they created it. Maybe if you or Zoey asked, they would confirm (or at least not deny it).<br /> :::::4. On the Deacons, I guess I meant it has enough meat to it be its own page. Plus, it was fanfic told thru the comments board, which was unique. (And though it seemed obvious to me it wasn't canon, lots of people thought it might be)<br /> :::::5. Your suggestion as to Kelsey makes sense.<br /> :::::If no one agrees with my suggestions, I'm happy to go with the flow, I just wanted to weigh in.<br /> :::::--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 14:20, 5 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> :::::# Hmm. I guess a Tier 2 page could be used to warn the community about him not actually being canon xD Although I'm not sure how his other stuff links into Iris2009.<br /> :::::# Well, being used as an example for all LG15 UGC is kinda notable. It'd be helpful if you could link me to video/transcript, but for now, I'd support Tier 2.<br /> :::::# I see what you mean - that does look suspicious. Agreed for now.<br /> :::::# That &quot;plus&quot; is what's notable, imo. It's either the only comment-board-based fanfic, or the only one I've heard of. Either way, not being video-based and yet still getting known is notable, imo.<br /> ::::::I'll update the Suggested Tiers list. Thanks for your input and help.<br /> :::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> I hate to upset the applecart, but I have an opinion. (Doesn't everyone?) This is about CassieIsWatching, which is currently listed as a Tier 3. I believe that CassieIsWatching is a special exception, and should be Tier 4. It has done the following: achieved over 250,000 views on just 5 videos; inspired a multitude of Cassie fanfic (including ItsCassie, a Tier 4); inspired OpAphid, the former-official ARG of LG15 and current part of RE88 (a Tier 5); provided a launchpad for the aforementioned OpAphid, which 'gamejacked' CiW's mailbox and responded to its videos; attracted attention of a new audience and provided the majority of LG15.com's forum traffic during its run; historically significant; inspired BreeIsWaiting, which is presumed to have connections to the Creators;and finally, it is currently complete, with around 10 pages, and requires little effort to maintain (as it has ended long, long ago). Again, I don't want to upset matters--I'm not a regular LGPedia contributer--but I strongly believe that CiW should be Tier 4. --[[User:Rekidk|Rekidk]] 22:29, 28 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :Sounds reasonable to me...but for the time being, I'm not even sure this will go through...I haven't checked with the propaganda department and the administration yet. (Just came home half an hour ago.)<br /> :Any objections to bumping up CiW should the Revamp go through?<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:47, 2 March 2008 (CST)<br /> :::I see no problem with bumping CiW up a notch . . . it wasn't just popular in its time but downright infamous. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 14:33, 2 March 2008 (CST)<br /> :::No objections. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 15:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)<br /> :I think you have a very valid point about CIW, and it is something I struggled with as coming up with my &quot;proposed listings.&quot; The reason I personally decided against giving it a tier 4 listing was because I have been told countless times by people who played the game that the information we have is incomplete or inaccurate in many places. In my opinion, I think it would take some work by the people who are familiar with the series to get the pages accurate before we would want to work them into tier 4. It seems a little silly to me to expand upon pages with inaccurate information. HOWEVER, if we can find someone who is knowledgable, or is willing to do the research to become knowledgable enough to correct the inaccuracies and fill in the gaps, I agree, cassieiswatching definitely has a place on tier 4... maybe even tier 5 depending on just how much information we end up getting about it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:08, 2 March 2008 (CST)<br /> : Not to upset matters, either, but if its fairly complete as is, I concur with Rekidk's views that CiW should be tier 4. CiW has been very influential on the development of lg15 --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> I agree to mantian the iris page myself, and re do what might need to be changed. ----TJ Marsh<br /> <br /> :The Flock was listed as Tier 3, has a large number of pages, and was already well-maintained. Iris is listed as Tier 1 and is currently marked for deletetion on your own wish.<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 08:27, 3 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ====The Coalition====<br /> They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :No, in my opinion, for the following reasons: <br /> :#HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.<br /> :#Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.<br /> :#And this is the most important one, in my opinion: ''Everyone'' can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.<br /> :Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page ''we'' will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.<br /> :(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)<br /> :(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of &quot;inflation&quot; for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of &quot;endorsement&quot; is practically worth nothing.)<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)<br /> ::On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on [[The Coalition]] page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.<br /> :::God I love this revamp.&lt;/sarcasm&gt;<br /> ::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition. But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a &quot;test&quot; page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.<br /> :::::(P.S. if you want to talk about &quot;empty shells&quot;, look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :What provision is there in the guidelines for a &quot;portal page&quot; that links to 4 series that share elements? Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure. You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence. How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::Anyone?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief &quot;summary&quot;, although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.<br /> :::I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::There are 4 series so they each should have a page. The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series. As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory. The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::I fail to see why &quot;the revamp needs to be modified&quot; just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.<br /> ::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great &quot;YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!&quot; - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be &quot;The Coalition&quot;, then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.<br /> ::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're &quot;defying logic for some arbitrary standard&quot;, most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.<br /> :::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::&quot;The important and sole decisive criterion is notability.&quot; Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them. I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.<br /> :::::::# The Coalition is set up similar to RE88. RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in. The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in. <br /> :::::::# The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.<br /> :::::::# They have a forum presence.<br /> :::::::# FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.<br /> :::::::# They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation) It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.<br /> :::::::# It features immersive interaction with members of the community.<br /> :::::::# There are a high number of characters including live action characters.<br /> :::::::# Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.<br /> <br /> :::::::It meets just about every criteria set forth. My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump? But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page. If you can, more power to you. I look forward to the end result.<br /> <br /> :::::::Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured. I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure. There are always elements that are &quot;up in the air&quot; but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, &quot;The important and sole decisive criterion is notability.&quot; - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?<br /> :::::::Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages ''because'' The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.<br /> :::::::The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and &quot;hits&quot; on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, ''The Flock'' all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth ''nothing'' if no one comes to eat.<br /> :::::::You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, ''nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia''. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?<br /> :::::::I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.<br /> :::::::The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?<br /> :::::::Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock ''alone'' has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, ''nobody cares''.<br /> :::::::Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it ''would'' place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there ''is'' a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages ''at all''. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?<br /> ----<br /> :::::::In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of &quot;identity crisis&quot; problem - are these series all together one complex &quot;The Coalition&quot;, or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will-O-Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate &quot;List of Facility J links&quot; or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.<br /> <br /> :::::::So, especially ''because'' your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:<br /> :::::::#Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.<br /> :::::::#Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?<br /> :::::::#Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)<br /> :::::::#Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we ''will'' need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.<br /> <br /> :::::::Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of &quot;Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention.&quot; does not need 200 pages.<br /> :::::::Just one.<br /> :::::::If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.<br /> ::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::&lt;small&gt;Not proofread.&lt;/small&gt;<br /> <br /> :::::::::&lt;li&gt;At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.<br /> :::::::::&lt;li&gt;There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.<br /> :::::::::&lt;li&gt;There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.<br /> :::::::::&lt;li&gt;You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list.<br /> :::::::::&lt;li&gt;I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.<br /> ::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.}}<br /> ::::::::::Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, &quot;Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?&quot; They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.<br /> ::::::::::The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.<br /> <br /> ::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.}}<br /> ::::::::::Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will ''all'' have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point ''for'' bumping up.<br /> <br /> ::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.}}<br /> ::::::::::Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?<br /> <br /> ::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.}}<br /> ::::::::::As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...''however'' - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, ''and'' there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.<br /> ::::::::::If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, ''and'' we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.<br /> ::::::::::However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.<br /> ::::::::::The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an &quot;Other series within the Coalition universe&quot; section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.<br /> <br /> ::::::::::Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean &quot;so notable it needs multiple pages&quot;. All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, &quot;Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page.&quot; - so even ''if'' somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?<br /> ::::::::::I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a &quot;whole&quot;, and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.<br /> :::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::I do not think we are talking about 200 pages. We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition. Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit. For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now. The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia. The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::Immo said &quot;The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.&quot; - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.<br /> ::::::::::::As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.}}<br /> ::::::::::::I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: ''What historicaly record?'' Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically ''nothing''. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only ''16'' are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are [[Everything You Need To Play Facility J]], last updated on 30 October 2007, [[Mysterious Young Lady]], [[WalterDW]] and [[TravelerJ19]], all of whose ''content'' was last updated '''''11 months ago''''' (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).<br /> ::::::::::::Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. ''That'' is the &quot;historical record&quot; we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few &quot;almost&quot; there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for ''almost a year'' is the greatest argument ''for'' collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.<br /> <br /> ::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.}}<br /> ::::::::::::Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're ''actually'' talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of &quot;modelmotion no like teh revamp&quot;, please open a &quot;Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp&quot; section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.<br /> :::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we ''will not'' be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We '''will not''' have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by ''discussion'' and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you ''admittedly ignored'', that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our ''opinion'' and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's &quot;THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!&quot; posts and not helping this discussion.<br /> ----<br /> ::Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: ''Been said.'' Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.<br /> ::Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.<br /> :::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::: Let's start the fuckin' revamp already! This is insane. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::Milo...[[User talk:Zoey|click here]], try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.<br /> ::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now. Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages. Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages so it would essentially become a portal for the &quot;coalition territory&quot;. This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery. It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your &quot;reasonable approach&quot; - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it &quot;revamp&quot; because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these &quot;historic records&quot; you keep talking about - the only thing &quot;historic&quot; about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.<br /> :::::::::As for &quot;putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery&quot; - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.<br /> :::::::::Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're ''actually'' interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.<br /> <br /> :::::::::Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said &quot;fuck it&quot; and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.<br /> :::::::::You want ''us'' to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, ''why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?''<br /> ::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::::::::::To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history. Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your &quot;history&quot; shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.<br /> ::::::::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::::::::::::&lt;small&gt;Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.&lt;/small&gt;<br /> <br /> :::::::::I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::Let us face reality here. Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site. It is going to take time to rebuild. That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ----<br /> I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:<br /> #If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?<br /> #The portal quite clearly says &quot;The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series&quot; - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.<br /> :~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.<br /> ::Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like [[Cassieresurrection]] all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.<br /> ::I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to ''The Coalition'', the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.<br /> :::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.<br /> ::::It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.<br /> ::::The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:24 March 21 (EST)<br /> :::::As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia. In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem. Perhaps we could consider it as &quot;Tier 5 Lite&quot; where fans of the series would have an &quot;option&quot; to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration. I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level. Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series. Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the &quot;ability&quot; to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said &quot;'''I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.'''&quot; I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when ''some'' people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole. From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4. I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: ''Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some '''subjective''' or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)'' If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.<br /> <br /> :::::::From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness. So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of &quot;the Coaltion,&quot; and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series. One word, ''&quot;Wha?&quot;'') Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow '''four''' basic pages -- one for each series. This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and '''the info that they are related to the other three series''' under a greater &quot;Coalition&quot; universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the &quot;Red Territory&quot; as well). It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering ''have said multiple times'' that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point. If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).<br /> <br /> :::::::If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over. If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I ''also'' see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to &quot;the Coalition&quot; as a whole. For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.<br /> <br /> :::::::'''Oh, side note:''' I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier. If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that ''all'' TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense. But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors). Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to ''another'' lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).<br /> ::::::::Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant. It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the &quot;homepage.&quot; Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia? It has been a very difficult year for &quot;community videos&quot; but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn. I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages. Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together. The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion. Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe. The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine. I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.<br /> <br /> :Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).<br /> :'''virginian:''' &quot;I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far.&quot; - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would ''still'' be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 &quot;real&quot; views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.<br /> :Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?<br /> :'''model:''' &quot;Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia.&quot; - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.<br /> :Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:<br /> :[[Image:Coalition system.png|800px|none|thumb|Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.]]<br /> :Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify ''why'' that should be the case with hard facts.<br /> :Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post. There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months. Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the &quot;community videos&quot; fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.<br /> ::::As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.<br /> ::::I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:25, 22 March (EST)<br /> <br /> :::::Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.<br /> :::::&quot;The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole.&quot; - thus, ''by your very own definition'', the 4 subparts of The Coalition are ''not'' independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore ''not'' eligible for independent listings as series.<br /> <br /> :::::The description you give is valid for ''any'' vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.<br /> :::::(And before you contest with &quot;multiple characters&quot; - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)<br /> <br /> :::::Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::::@model: {{quote|up there|The Coalition&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)}}<br /> :::::Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.<br /> ::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::It is not a like to tell the truth. All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened. If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so. Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how ''you'' ask for &quot;something productive&quot;, but meh, whatever.<br /> :::::::::Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier ''4''. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.<br /> :::::::::So, should virginian ''not'' insist to object, and should third parties ''not'' override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.<br /> ::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --[[User:FH14]] 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)<br /> ::I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence. I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic. Only then can we have a viable discussion. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't &quot;get it&quot;. Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.<br /> ::::::Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.<br /> ::::::Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?<br /> ::::::''If'' the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:<br /> ::::::#They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.<br /> ::::::#The viewers and producers ''just don't care'' for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.<br /> :::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::::It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are? If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question. The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on. No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure. That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning . The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.<br /> :::::::::::#It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about ''no one else coming, either''. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the ''official blog'' of LG15 ''and'' LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, ''still'' no one else edited it. It very much looks like ''nobody cares''.<br /> :::::::::::#We will not &quot;simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on&quot;, because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?<br /> :::::::::::#It is absolutely and 100% ''insane'' to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state &quot;we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!&quot;, please do so - it'd help me a lot.)<br /> ::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.<br /> ::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on. Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site. It is clear from their video series. And they even have community video spin offs from within their series. I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5. So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck. So Tier 5 it is.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::If it is &quot;clear&quot; from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?<br /> :::::::Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?<br /> <br /> :::::::I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is ''not'' independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.<br /> <br /> :::::::So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing ''you'' posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that ''your personal opinion'' is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.<br /> :::::::It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was ''your'' decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous &quot;Are you blind?&quot; posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.<br /> :::::::iow, the discussion would be over.<br /> :::::::If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual &quot;you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind&quot; tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely ''not'' &quot;obvious&quot;, and you don't have ''any'' facts to support your opinion.<br /> ----<br /> :::::::To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.<br /> :::::::The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?<br /> ::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::::To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is. <br /> :::::::::It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 21:51, 23 March (EST)<br /> ::::::::::Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak. I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions. I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::::::::Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the &quot;right&quot; one. You just keep insisting it's &quot;obvious&quot;, that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.<br /> :::::::::::We got your opinion. Now bring ''facts''.<br /> :::::::::::As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, ''and'' had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.<br /> :::::::::::Now add one and one together.<br /> <br /> :::::::::::@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.<br /> :::::::::::So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.<br /> :::::::::::And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...<br /> :::::::::::* '''The Coalition''', with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series<br /> :::::::::::* '''The Coalition characters''', again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.<br /> :::::::::::* '''The Coalition videos''', listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).<br /> :::::::::::* '''The Coalition interaction''' - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.<br /> ::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::::::Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is ''not'' going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my &quot;Tier 5 Lite&quot; suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::::::::Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::I am not talking &quot;on behalf&quot; of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.<br /> :::I am not talking &quot;on behalf&quot; of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.<br /> :::I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.<br /> :::I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments ''I'' made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.<br /> :::It's not gonna work.<br /> :::Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am ''not'' the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.<br /> :::Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is &quot;obvious&quot; and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.<br /> :::This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.<br /> :::With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.<br /> :::''Everybody is happy. Except for you.''<br /> ::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::Actually to the contrary. As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot; just like I suggested.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::::If this is the &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot; you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.<br /> :::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as &quot;project leader&quot; here. I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground. You just fail to read what is written.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing ''&quot;[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.&quot;'' from ''&quot;It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested.&quot;'' and ''&quot;Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening.&quot;'' from ''&quot;Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page.&quot;''<br /> :::The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot;, with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a &quot;Tier 3 Deluxe&quot;, where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.<br /> :::And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:<br /> ::::''Ren, your persistent insults'' --&gt; unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.<br /> ::::''are just incompatible with your role as'' --&gt; unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.<br /> ::::''&quot;project leader&quot; here.'' --&gt; attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.<br /> ::::''I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.'' --&gt; non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was &quot;It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested.&quot;; your new statement does ''not'' contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, ''different'' fact: That your idea of &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot; admittedly was ''not'' equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just &quot;a lot of common ground&quot;. It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of &quot;common ground&quot;, but as per your own statement, right there, it was ''not'' &quot;just like [you] suggested&quot;. <br /> <br /> :::Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot; was long gone anyway:<br /> :::*''Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.''<br /> :::*''The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.''<br /> :::*''It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.''<br /> <br /> :::Tier 4 is ''not'' equal to &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot;. Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.<br /> :::The truth is, the &quot;magic moment&quot; was one day ''before'' you suggested &quot;Tier 5 lite&quot; - when Immo's suggestion of ''&quot;You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]&quot;'' was answered, quite clearly, by me with ''&quot;As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.&quot;''<br /> :::As of that point, ''four days ago'', it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.<br /> :::I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done ''nothing'' to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.<br /> :::''You'' and ''you alone'' are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a &quot;fine solution&quot;, FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we ''did'' have a factual discussion, I ''did'' accept the facts and Immo ''did'' convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his &quot;Tier 5! Tier 5!&quot; cries with condescendence and insults is ''you''.<br /> :::''You'' are the one who dragged out this discussion, and ''you'' are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.<br /> ::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::What was your point?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment ~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy? It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) <br /> :::::::::[Head explodes] ~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) <br /> ::::::::::I like applesauce.--[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::::::If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself. Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ====&quot;Tier 1 Format&quot;====<br /> I would like to know more about the &quot;Tier 1 format&quot;. Exactly what will it look like and how will the information on a page like [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).]] look like on the new page. Will any information be cut? If so will we be be told in advance what information will be cut and will we have a opportunity to comment on all proposed cuts?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 06:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :Funny how ''you'' just a few paragraphs above, told me &quot;You just fail to read what is written.&quot;<br /> :But actually, I'm glad you asked this - because it proves 100% that you have not read the Tier list ''at all'' in the past few weeks of discussion, and that you didn't look around the rest of the pedia either. The [[List of UGC series not covered on LGPedia]] already exists. The very page you linked to ''has already been marked for deletion''.<br /> :So, to answer your question - yes, information will be cut from Tier 1 pages. If you want to see how it will look like, just follow the link I just gave you.<br /> :The pages will be rewritten by all of us, coordinated by your favorite Revamp-leader - me! So no, there will not be a separate discussion for every single page being rewritten. You can contribute to the new, shortened pages as usual, and that includes restoring information that may have been cut before - as long as the pages stay within the realms of their assigned Tiers. You can volunteer to revamp specific pages, as long as you coordinate your effort with ''me'' - since I have to keep track.<br /> <br /> :Thank you for your post. Honestly. Because it demonstrates how minimal your interest in this discussion really was, and how you just used it to try to push your personal favorites and try to shove a community portal down our throats.<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::Do you really have to begin every comment with a blatant insult? And for the record I do not subjugate myself to any leader. Neither to I recognize you having any authority over me. I also think the concept of a community video portal is perfectly valid and I will continue to press for one.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:08, 24 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ====&quot;Guidelines&quot;====<br /> I just want to post because I am a bit concerned that the way things are currently set up, people who are interested in making new pages for new series will not have the opportunity to open a discussion regarding moving said series to a higher/lower tier. I want to ensure that people will have this opportunity, and I would like to open a discussion for ways we can ensure this will happen. My suggestion is to use the word &quot;guidelines&quot; with this system instead of &quot;rules.&quot; I know the word &quot;rules&quot; has not been stated, but after reading the comments, I feel that this is the case, and I think &quot;guidelines&quot; would better indicate the tone of this discussion. I am not saying that they will be guidelines in the sense that anyone can do what they want, but in the sense that things will be open for discussion and that people cannot just &quot;enforce&quot; that a series is stuck in a set tier because of hard and fast &quot;rules,&quot; but instead, that there will be discussion which everyone can participate and voice their opinion in as is the tradition on LGPedia. We should remember that the admins have the overall authority to ensure that LGPedia is well run an ultimately if things get out of hand the power does still rest with the admins. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:52, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :I think that's an important point, model. And no one is saying that these tiers are set in stone for any of these series. Things change, series get more/less popular (of course historical notability must also be considered), and discussions will have to be reopened. That's part of the way things work (ideally at least). The whole purpose of this discussion was just to categorize what we have cataloged here currently, and now that that's (mostly) done, things ''should'' run more smoothly. There seems to have been a lot of drama here and I've tried to stay out of it (although I have read it all), but I think it's time to move on, and I think this discussion is a good way to do that.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 01:21, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :First of all, I don't understand where you're proposing this change in terminology. Since I don't speak of rules (as you noted), I have no idea where you would like me to speak of &quot;guidelines&quot; instead.<br /> :Secondly, I have no idea where you think a certain Tier is enforced, or stuck to someone or anything. The system is pretty straightforward - it places new series and series new to the pedia automatically on Tier 2, the entry level (as it has already happened with masonishappy, for example), and if series gain momentum, they are re-evaluated - be it because its increased notability is evident, the informational load leads to an administrative request, or because a fan requests it.<br /> :People are &quot;stuck&quot; in their Tier for a certain amount after an evaluation. That makes sense, and is normal - otherwise, somebody could just request a higher Tier every day until the end of time. We have a grand evaluation now, so of course we're not going to bump up half the series one day after completion. But by next month (or whenever) the situation of a series might totally have changed. Look at Paulmark18 - a single shoutout in an official episode increases their notability enough to rise to Tier 3. That could happen to any series any day. And of course we'll have to re-evaluate its status then. But I don't get what that has to do with which word we don't use and which word we should use instead of the word we don't use in the first place?<br /> <br /> :To sum it up, I have no idea what you want to change. And given that you yourself admit that the word you want to replace is not used in the first place, I'm not entirely sure you do, either.<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:24, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::Well, Renegade, I think MM just wants to make sure that this is all stated out, black and white, and honestly, it's been ambiguous at best. I think it needs to be blatantly stated that this new system is merely a set of guidelines to properly categorize the many fanfics. Shoot, our previous discussions with Masonishappy are definitely important because that show is a guinea pig in the way we'll be treating all new fanfictions from now on. So yes, to just to make it clear, if the criteria fit, there should be no reason why a show can't fit in a certain Tier, higher or lower. If there's a series that's become really popular (even after starting out really slow) or the Creators later 'canonize' (like they did last fall with P&amp;A), I see no reason why that show can't be approved of a higher Tier. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::Isn't that included in ''&quot;Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic&quot;''? -_^<br /> ::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:35, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::::I don't think anyone is really far apart on this issue, at least. Series may move around from time to time, but having a structure will make things much less arbitrary. As always, the 'pedia will react to particular cases as they occur. As a wise man said in the movie Ghostbusters: <br /> ::::'''Dr. Peter Venkman''': I make it a rule never to get involved with possessed people.<br /> ::::''[Dana starts passionately making out with him]''<br /> ::::'''Dr. Peter Venkman''': Actually, it's more of a guideline than a rule... <br /> ::::--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 22:00, 18 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ==Schedule==<br /> Almost exactly three months after this project has come to life, there now seems to be a large consent on the initial Tier listing; while there are still minor details to wait for until we can finalize the Tier 3/4 listing, Tiers 1 and 2 are finalized, and, as such, the Phases only related to these Tiers can begin.<br /> <br /> '''As of Monday, March 24th, 2008, 06:09:05 GMT, Phase {{color|red|1}} of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is running.''' See below for details.<br /> <br /> *The Revamp will proceed as follows<br /> **{{color|red|'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of &quot;List of additional user-generated content&quot;; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.}}<br /> **'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.<br /> **'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.<br /> **'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.<br /> **'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.<br /> **'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.<br /> **'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.<br /> **'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]].<br /> <br /> ===Page-list===<br /> *Central portal<br /> *List of videos<br /> *Templates:<br /> **Bottom index<br /> **Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)<br /> *Character pages<br /> *Actor pages<br /> *Categories to group it all together<br /> <br /> ==Flock Regulations==<br /> The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page.&lt;br&gt;<br /> Reasons for revocation can be:<br /> *Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still &quot;barebones&quot;, lacking parts of sidebar information.<br /> *Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.<br /> *The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.<br /> *New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.<br /> *New main characters do not have a character page within four days.<br /> *The &quot;Plot background&quot; or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.<br /> *The &quot;Last Appearance&quot; link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.<br /> *The portal is kept &quot;untidy&quot;, having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.<br /> *Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.<br /> <br /> Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update &quot;Last Appearance&quot;. These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.<br /> ----<br /> And before you start complaining: These rules are actually quite gracious. It takes less than ten minutes to get a barebones video page up. You have been given three ''days''. It takes less than one minute to add a link to a list. You have been given ''two days''. If your people work as great as you touted, you should be in no danger. But there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that being incapable of doing a ten-minute-job within three days is a very clear sign your section is ''not'' actively being maintained, and since the only reason you have been given the right to create separate pages is that you vouched to keep them maintained, violation of these regulations will lead to the termination of this deal.&lt;br&gt;<br /> In addition, you should be aware that the pedia doesn't sleep, and it doesn't wait for you. Deadlines will not change because you are on vacation or anything. If your pages go unmaintained just because one person cannot contribute, that's just another sign you cannot handle the workload.&lt;br&gt;<br /> As said above, the timeframes you have been given are very gracious, especially considering that you don't even have to care for the whole pedia, but just a very, very small subset of its pages. So take what you can get, and keep your section maintained - any complaints will only lead to a re-evaluation of these timeframes, and might very well lead to the administration deciding that you don't really need two days to put up a single link.<br /> :~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:16, 27 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::1) I do question whether you have the authority on behalf of the administration to impose regulations but in the end it doesn't matter.&lt;br&gt;<br /> ::2) That fact that this section takes almost half the page is telling. You've obviously spent a great deal of time looking at Flock page histories to see how long it takes for types of edits to be made. I can only assume that your sheriff of these parts and will be keeping a close eye to insure these regulations are met.&lt;/br&gt;<br /> ::4) These are fan contributions, no one is running to the lgpedia to read transcripts for current vids. It's about archiving. The one thing this process has ignored from the very beginning is how and why these pags are used. They are used differently than the canon series.&lt;br&gt; <br /> ::5) When reading &quot;superfluous content (like the current character placeholders)&quot; is where my needle ticked. We ended season 1 with every character's future uncertain. Since the lgpedia is our only web presence I put the placeholders in to create suspense between seasons and as the season got started as to which characters would return and which new ones would show up. We revealed a new character as recently as last week. You might have a case if I upload new images for this purpose but I used the same image that has been on the page since day one in each case. It just shows that you're looking really hard to find something to complain about and will continue to do so.&lt;br&gt; <br /> ::6) The fact that you've named these &quot;Immo's Regulations&quot; suggest that I somehow am getting special treatment. I don't want or need special treatment. I mean if my people are doing the editing doesn't that ease the burden of other editors? Seems like a fair exchange to me.&lt;br&gt;<br /> ::7) At the end of the day all this appears to be is a petty pathetic attempt to best me and guess what? You win, tell a friend. Our project is very laid back. I don't hold the girls to a video schedule I'm sure as hell am not going to hold them to your regulations. Whoever has edited the Flockipedia has done so without any prodding from me. They are free to still do so. I won't discourage them but I'd expect they won't. Whether FH14 continues to do so is up to him. I'll take this opportunity to thank him for all his hard work. So however far back you scale the Flock's pages I expect the administration to maintain them at the same level as others in the same tier.<br /> ::--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 18:43, 27 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::#Question all you want...I have no fear of it.<br /> ::#Actually, I've got better things to do than to police you...I'm four weeks past schedule on the portal redesign, have to fix character icons and whatnot. But I'm sure FH14 will keep an eye on everything.<br /> ::#Yeah...you kinda don't have 3. Cheating on the numbers, are we?<br /> ::#So? The fact that your users use your pages differently than the canon ones is a reason they should be allowed to make the pedia as a whole look incomplete? ''Transcript missing'' looks like &quot;The pedia is missing a transcript.&quot;, not &quot;Immo had a logical reason not to put up a transcript at the moment, and the pedia is not at fault for this.&quot;. You may not care if a transcript is missing, but for us, it means the pedia looks incomplete. The fact that you don't seem to grasp that your pages directly represent LGPedia to the readers explains why you don't give a fuck about our needs. I don't care for what reason you put up transcripts, as long as they're there. Nobody is reading Flock pages thinking &quot;oh, these are immo's pages&quot; - they are reading ''the pedia'', and everything they see falls back on ''the pedia''. When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad, not you.<br /> ::#Your needle can tick all it wants. The fact that you had to write a whole thick paragraph to explain these placeholders should tell you it's not obvious. For everyone else, it looks like somebody failed at table building. If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says &quot;to be revealed&quot; or something, so the user knows it's meant to be empty, and not just horrible layouting.<br /> ::#Ever heard of &quot;Miranda Laws&quot;? You're a precedent, and the only one getting this special bumping so far. Thus, it's named after you. Why should I name it &quot;Tier 4 Exception Regulations&quot; when, technically, Tier 4 already ''is'' the exception? Face it, you're getting special treatment, and you're the only one getting it so far, so it's named after you.&lt;br&gt;And, just for the sake of mentioning it: Once more, your argument can be spun both ways - deleting all but one Flock pages would also ease our burden, and a lot more than still having to patrol what your users do on 50 pages.<br /> ::#Oh, I'm sorry, were you out of arguments? Did you find no way to attack me on the subject matter? I don't care if your project is laid back, how you keep your girls or whatever. It's time you finally grasp this is not about you in any way. It's about the pedia as a whole and all of the fanfic. The only reason it's personalized for you is because you're the only creator who got here trying to defend his creation with nonsense, insults, and pulling strings behind the scenes.&lt;br&gt;You were speaking about how stuff was telling. You know what's telling? That in six points you had, you didn't question a single of the regulations I wrote. All your six points were direct attacks at me. First questioning my authority, then insinuating I was unrightfully thinking of myself as a sort of &quot;pedia police&quot;, going on to imply that I just don't understand your ways, that I was unfairly pointing out obvious flaws in your design, that I was highlighting you for no apparent reason, and finally, directly saying I'm picking on you, calling me pathetic.&lt;br&gt;You may think you did a great job at undermining my credibility, insulting me, or whatever the hell you tried there. Fact is, this was your response to the regulations, you did not object to them, so they will go in effect as written, unless the administration intervenes.<br /> ::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> :::::Again in your effort to &quot;win&quot; you miss the most important point which is where I said I will not follow your regulations nor will I ask anyone else to and I concede what that means in terms of whatever tier the administration deems the Flock should go. Could that be the reason I didn'nt object to the them?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 22:56, 27 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::::::Then I guess this deal is void and your pages will be collapsed.<br /> ::::::&lt;nowiki&gt;*shrug*&lt;/nowiki&gt; Less work for us.<br /> :::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:01, 27 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :::Okay, here's my two cents on this whole thing. You can argue back at me if you want or whatever, but I'm just stating what I took from this.<br /> :::Firstly, you say &quot;If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says &quot;to be revealed&quot; or something&quot; -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying &quot;We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that.&quot; Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.<br /> :::And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing? I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words &quot;When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad.&quot; <br /> :::You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.<br /> :::Next, you say &quot;Less work for us&quot; if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it? So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.<br /> :::And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?<br /> :::&lt;nowiki&gt;*takes a deep breath and closes the window*&lt;/nowiki&gt;<br /> :::[[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 01:12, 28 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Firstly, you say &quot;If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says &quot;to be revealed&quot; or something&quot; -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying &quot;We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that.&quot; Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.}}<br /> ::::That is what I tried to say - they look nice to ''you'' because you know what they are. For the uninitiated, they look like random crap added by someone who didn't know how to correctly build a table, and had to fill up the remaining cells. I was not suggesting to reveal anything (hence the &quot;or something&quot;) - I was merely suggesting to make obvious to ''everyone'' that these images are supposed to be where they are and that they serve a function, and that they aren't just fillers to hold the table together.&lt;br&gt;Immo specifically said he created them to create suspense - would it hurt the suspense to add &quot;New season 2 character?&quot; or something on it? That would give away nothing, have the same effect, and everybody would know it's supposed to be there.&lt;br&gt;But nooooo, instead we add cryptic symbols, expecting everyone to psychically guess their true meaning.<br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing?}}<br /> ::::Zoey.<br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words &quot;When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad.&quot;}}<br /> ::::And I'm pretty sure Zoey and an armada of KM users were pretty unhappy about it, and said armada did not blame specific, random users, but blamed the general entity &quot;the pedia&quot; for not having transcripts. That's like saying, &quot;I see you already have too many pages to work on, so why do you not want ours to work on, too?&quot; I fail to see your point. (And for the record: I don't watch KM. I am not involved in any KM operation on this site, except for template hardcode fixing. What you say may be true, but I know nothing about it.)<br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.}}<br /> ::::My statement was not to say that you as a Flock user would go around and check for missing RE transcripts. My point was, the generic user doesn't go &quot;Oh my, FH14 failed to add the second half of transcript XY yet!&quot;, but &quot;BAH! The pedia's transcript is incomplete again!&quot;. The users don't look at sub-sections or individual users. If a transcript is missing, it's not missing on an episode page of the Flock subsection. It's missing on &quot;the pedia&quot;.&lt;br&gt;Thus, any missing transcript gives the pedia as a whole a bad image.<br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Next, you say &quot;Less work for us&quot; if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it?}}<br /> ::::That was the basis of the deal, yes. The regulations would've caught if you ''didn't'' do that, because then you ''wouldn't'' be self-servicing, and ''would'' require additional help. Had you updated the pages as normal, everything would've been fine, and you'd never have heard of the regulations again.<br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.}}<br /> ::::And that is exactly what's inacceptable. Users don't have a magic page radar that tells them &quot;''Now'' you can come, page's ready!&quot; - they come when they want to look something up. And when the page isn't there, see above - they don't go &quot;Oh damn, Babygurl1853 hasn't added a video page for Flock 64 yet.&quot; they go &quot;WTF?? Does the pedia STILL not have a page?? The episode has been out for two weeks!!!&quot;.&lt;br&gt;This is what the regulations were for. They set you a certain timeframe. Had you wanted to put the episode links after 10 minutes, ten hours or a day, we wouldn't have cared. We'd just have cared had you not done it within two days, since it's a ten-second-job, after all. You may not care if there is no video page. The readers do. And they blame all of us, not you personally.<br /> ::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?}}<br /> ::::It's apparent that you either didn't talk to Immo beforehand, or that Immo intentionally failed to mention certain facts about his live conversations. Rest assured, I know for a fact that this wasn't the first place this deal was suggested, and rest assured I, personally, told him that the volume of pages and their well-maintained condition were greatly speaking for keeping them. (I have logs to prove that, too.)<br /> ::::This isn't about me hating Immo. This is about Immo's resistance to respect that the administration of this encyclopedia has to make sure its content is in a reasonable state of maintenance, and that his desire to keep more than 50 pages and more adds to the editing burden we ''all'' have to share. If you don't understand why all of us, ask Immo - I explained it to him multiple times on IRC.<br /> ::::As for your last question, if said theoretical fanfic would be eligible for such a deal (i.e. be in Tier 3 and have a reasonable argument to bump up to 4 if it sustains itself), and it agrees to the proposed regulations and accept the consequences should it fail to adhere to the regulations, I'd have no problem with it. It's just that the very fact that you have proven before that you can run the section on your own is what gave Immo the leverage to broker this deal - other fanfics have not shown such self-management capabilities. Nobody, not even me, doubted you could easily stay within the regulations. Especially if you are an active pedia editor, you know exactly that it doesn't take three days to add a main character to the portal. With image upload, with preparations, with extra time for weird bugs, it takes 30 minutes max. <br /> ::::And yet, 3 days for a 30 minute task are apparently not good enough for Immo. Whatever. I have proposed the regulations, I can show you countless examples for every task showing that you would've gotten vastly more time then necessary, if that's still not good enough for Immo, that's not my fault. This is not Immo's personal pedia praise party, this is content reorganization. He had fought his way to get his very own special deal, he didn't want it. That's his decision, not mine.<br /> ::::In all likelyhood, had Immo agreed, nothing would've have changed for The Flock whatsoever.<br /> :::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:36, 28 February 2008 (CST)<br /> :It looks like this has gotten... ''interesting'' to say the least. I'm going to start out by saying that I have few objections to the regulations Renegade has proposed (''few'' not ''a few'', as in I only have 1 or 2 minor ones. That would be in the case we had a few weeks ago, where a new character is added who has a number of videos that need to be added, in that case, the transcription deadline could be extended while the others remain the same.) I'm not even going to touch on the whole Immo-backdoor-deal-that-he-and-Satan-made-to-bug-Renegade-for-several-weeks thing (I find it amusing how you two can both accuse the other of being rude in the most civil way possible. :P) A way to ease the whole &quot;incomplete&quot; transcripts make the lgpedia look bad would be to make the '''!!!Transcript Incomplete!!!''' less obvious looking on all the pages where that template is used. (Please note, I am not trying to sound mean or demanding, and I apologize if I come across that way, also, I changed &quot;Immo Regulations&quot; to &quot;Flock Regulations&quot; to kill any arguments over that). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 20:12, 3 March 2008 (EST)<br /> :I have nothing else to add...Other than to point at the latest Flock video, which had page, image, transcript, and character background added and updated before even immo saw the video :D *is a good girl* [[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 19:51, 2 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> :::Has a final decision been made? After reading all this i don't actually see a clear meeting of the minds as to how the plan will be implemented. However if a final decision has been made it should be announced. Personally I think the final decision should be a set of voluntary guidelines rather than &quot;regulations&quot;. It should be up to the users to decide how they are implemented, but it would give the admins a blueprint to &quot;nudge&quot; users in a helpful direction. It would also give the admins the freedom to move things around where there are no clear objections which I think would be the majority of situations.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:30, 6 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::Basically Zoey told us to do nothing except discuss until she manages to get her computer fixed. I'm not sure when that'll happen, either. (I added a note to the schedule.)- [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 15:27, 6 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::: I do not see why there is any need for special time lines because LGPedia already uses a system for tagging pages that are going to be modified. The same system will work fine here without specific regulations. That said, LGPedia admins need to apply the tags in a way that gives users adequate time to respond in the talk page, but I believe that is how they currently operate.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:53, 6 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::::Because the situation is different - normal pages get tagged as normal. This was about pages that wouldn't even exist under normal conditions. Also, the tags are practically open-ended. Just because something is flagged as cleanup doesn't mean anybody actually cleans it up. Yet, the promise that would've been made by the deal was that pages don't need to be worried about in the first place, thus, had it come as far as that we'd actually have to tag a Flock page, they would already have violated the deal.<br /> ::::As for whether we will proceed at all - I don't know. Zoey sounded like the Revamp would continue, but specifically said we're not supposed to go forward without her. We're kind of in limbo right now.<br /> :::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> I think we need to make sure the voluntary guidelines work for everyone. I also think they need to be flexible enough to cope with all situations without making &quot;deals&quot;. We want to ecourage people to build great pages, not force them into timetables. In general its pretty obvious when a page has been abandoned and when it has just not been updated. <br /> Such pages can be tagged and if there is no objection they can be edited/moved as is the normal procedure on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:44, 7 March 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> :I don't quite see the point of that. The reason for those &quot;guidelines&quot; was that they were ''not'' voluntary - that they were necessary control mechanisms to make sure Immo kept his part of the deal. Since Immo has no interest in the deal with them, they're more or less irrelevant anyway. (Not to mention that, as ''any'' pedian can confirm to you, that &quot;forcing into timetables&quot; was set up very generously - just ask Shi how or Babygurl how long they usually need to add a transcript, and then compare that to the week of slack allowed.)<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:29, 7 March 2008 (CST)<br /> :I simply do not see a need for &quot;rules&quot; to implement the &quot;Tier System&quot;. The discussion on this page demonstrates that the normal wiki process works and voluntary guidelines for the entire &quot;Tier System&quot; are more in keeping with the philosophy of an entertainment wiki. I think that gives users the most freedom to be creative in their approach while allowing the pedia to retain the sense of order needed. The pages that have been tagged with the link to this discussion have had ample time to discuss their concerns and where those have been fully resolved I think its fair to proceed under the basis of voluntary guidelines. However where fans and series producers have concerns those should be discussed and resolved as is normal wiki procedure. However I think the creation of &quot;rules&quot; is a bad idea and does not serve the interests of the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 14:30, 17 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::Nobody was trying to implement &quot;rules&quot; for the Tier system. If you go and read the discussion, you will see that this entire section is an obsolete special case scenario purely for the Flock. It was a special case Tier 4 ruling, and had nothing to do with general regulation of the Tier system.<br /> ::Frankly, as much as I value your input, it doesn't help that you keep trying to artificially create controversy by misstating the nature or intent of this discussion.<br /> ::These were special case regulations for a special deal Immo brokered. Other than the placement of one series, they had nothing to do with the general Tier system, and due to Immo's decision not to accept the deal, they don't matter anymore. I see no reason to discuss them further.<br /> :::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:11, 17 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::Technically, though Immo hasn't &quot;accepted&quot; this, the guidelines have been followed, be it intentionally or otherwise. Does that not count for something? So the pages will be deleted/altered because the deal &quot;doesnt matter&quot;, even though the pages have been updated, without any need of admin interference? Which, I assumed, was the whole point in the first place? <br /> ::::Also, I don't like the use of the word &quot;rules&quot; - rules seem to make updating the pages feel more like work than doing it purely because you want to. [[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 22:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::I think as you guys manage to keep the upkeep on the series, it'll be fine. Of course, Ren was put in charge of making the deal, so who knows. As for the wording, would &quot;general guidelines&quot; be better? It all just semantics, you know. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:56, 17 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :::::Babygurl, I think you misunderstand - that was exactly the point I was trying to make above. The regulations are so broad and lax that you could easily have followed them with no change of behavior. It would have been a mere formality to state you are willing to adhere to them and that you understand that, if you fail to do that, we'll convert the pages into a more managable format. Most likely, you would never have heard of the regulations again. It's merely a question of having someone officially responsible to keep the pages up-to-date, so no one can go &quot;I didn't know I was supposed to do that!&quot; afterwards. Immo was the one complaining, Immo is the creator of this series, Immo brokered the deal, thus, Immo was the one discussed. If you want to go rogue and take the responsibility yourself, fine with me. In case you don't know, it's a whole lot of work to delete a section as large as the Flock, and I'd much rather not have to do that. But we can't just keep it around without no one being responsible for the pages. <br /> :::::So, if you feel you can keep the pages updated within the above-mentioned regulations (and I, personally, have no doubt about that - I designed them generously on purpose) and you are aware we'll convert the pages if that doesn't happen, ''and'' you are willing to be responsible for making sure that happens, then fine. Just publically, formally, officially state that. The important thing is that you officially assume responsibility for the Flock UGC pages (likely, we'd contact you on issues regarding them, too), and that you clearly state you are aware the pages will be downgraded and converted if they go unmaintained as defined in the regulations.<br /> :::::If you can do that, fine. I really don't care if Immo is the one responsible, we just need ''someone'' responsible. And so far, no one volunteered.<br /> ::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:42, 17 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> :::::::(raises hand) I'll do it. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 23:05, 23 March 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ::::::::You understand that we're granting The Flock a higher Tier on the condition that it'll stay maintained and up-to-date, that the regulations above are the criteria under which we will evaluate whether the pages are maintained and up-to-date, and that we will collapse the Flock into a more managable state should they go unmaintained?<br /> :::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:36, 23 March 2008 (CDT)<br /> ::::::::::Yep. Though I want to repropose an adjustment I suggested earlier: ''That would be in the case we had a few weeks ago, where a new character is added who has a number of videos that need to be added, in that case, the transcription deadline could be extended while the others remain the same.'' Other than that, I find the guidelines easily met and have no objections. I spend a lot of time maintaining that section anyway, so I understand the responsibility and I believe I can supervise it so it stays up to the standards listed above. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:04, 24 March 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==See also==<br /> *Related discussions:<br /> **[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]<br /> **[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Template:KateCharIndex&diff=112896 2008-03-18T11:20:46Z

<p>64.251.53.99: added Sophie</p> <hr /> <div>&lt;br clear=&quot;all&quot;&gt;<br /> &lt;center&gt;<br /> <br /> {| class=&quot;infobox&quot; align=&quot;bottom&quot; style=&quot;border:#535353 2px solid;margin-left:2em;margin-bottom:2em;width: 50em; text-align: center; font-size: 100%; background: #eee;&quot; cellspacing=&quot;2&quot;<br /> |+ '''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Topic: {{PAGENAME}}'''<br /> |-<br /> | style=&quot;background: #ae2301; font-size: 110%; color: #FFFFFF;&quot; align=&quot;center&quot; |'''[[KM Characters|&lt;font color=white&gt;KateModern Characters&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> |- valign=top<br /> ! style=&quot;width:8em&quot; | <br /> |-<br /> | &lt;big&gt;'''[[Charlie]] - [[Gavin]] - [[Tariq]] - [[Steve]] - [[Julia]]'''&lt;/big&gt;<br /> '''Current Supporting Characters:''' &lt;br&gt;[[Lee]] - [[Sophie]] - [[Justin]] - [[Terrence]] - [[Michelle Clore]] - [[Patricia]] - [[Rupert Van Heldon]]<br /> <br /> &lt;div style=&quot;font-size:9pt;padding:0.4em 0em 0em 0em;&quot;&gt;'''''{{link|link=KM Characters|text=Click Here For The Full Character List|color=black|external=no}}'''''&lt;/div&gt;<br /> |}<br /> <br /> &lt;/center&gt;<br /> &lt;includeonly&gt;[[Category:KateModern characters]]&lt;/includeonly&gt;<br /> &lt;noinclude&gt;[[Category:Bottom indexes]]&lt;/noinclude&gt;</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Redearth88/Behind_the_Scenes/Sandbox&diff=109995 2008-03-10T16:40:09Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>{{Show<br /> |name = Redearth 88<br /> |image = <br /> |creators = [[Jeromy Barber]] and [[Glenn Rubenstein]]<br /> <br /> |cast = <br /> {{Show/row|Rachel|Sara E. R. Fletcher}}<br /> {{Show/row|[[Gregory Atkins (character)|Gregory]]|Brad Maule}}<br /> {{Show/row|Marla|Maya Kramer}}<br /> {{Show/row|[[Clara Stokes|Clara]]|April Rickman}}<br /> {{Show/row|[[Maddison Atkins|Maddison]]|Faye Austin}}<br /> |former = <br /> |crew = <br /> {{Show/row|Writer|Jenni Powell}}<br /> {{Show/row|Editor|Mike Frankson}}<br /> {{Show/row|''Role to be Clarified''|Vicki Tippit}}<br /> {{Show/row|''Role to be Clarified''|Jen Redner}}<br /> <br /> |headercolor = #670001<br /> |headerfont = #fff<br /> }}<br /> <br /> &lt;!--Series information goes here--&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> ===Behind the Scenes Videos===<br /> *[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0-N3k6ALuA The Rachel Audition]<br /> <br /> ===See Also===<br /> *[[Questions and Answers]]<br /> *[http://12thstreethouse.blogspot.com/ 12th Street House]<br /> *[http://glennfmtoday.blogspot.com/ GlennFM Today]</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Talk:Lonelygirl15_characters&diff=103657 2008-02-15T16:16:08Z

<p>64.251.53.99: /* Former Character Section? */</p> <hr /> <div>== Character categories ==<br /> <br /> Okay, with the addition of the &quot;Random Girl&quot; character, I wonder about a number of things. (I was about to make a page for her, but then I realized that if she will not be recurring, all one needs to know about her is on the [[Truth Or Dare]] page.) Does she need her own category on this page? If so, is this the right category? It occurs to me that while &quot;Supporting Characters&quot; says &quot;nor do they have speaking parts in general&quot;, in fact, I'm pretty sure this is the first time any non-blogging character has spoken on camera. While she is supposedly only appearing in this one video, in a way she has a status above Bree's parents or Lucy because of this fact. --[[User:Brucker|Brucker]] 18:04, 19 January 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> :I think the Guest characters section is a good idea. Random Girl's role is really quite different than any of the other supporting characters. Plus, who knows... we may be having more such guest characters. That would be interesting! [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 12:22, 20 January 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> Should &quot;The Cowboy&quot; be added to this page? Also, should this cowboy have his on page? -- [[User:LGFAN|LGFAN]] 11:02, 5 February 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> :The Cowboy should definitely be on here. For now I just linked him to the video [[The Cowboy]] but since it looks like he's going to be making a few more appearances we should probably create a &quot;The Cowboy (character)&quot; page, or actually, we should move the video to &quot;The Cowboy (video)&quot; as we did with [[Purple Monkey (video)]] and [[Aleister Crowley (Video)]]. Hmm... just noticed our capitalization is inconsistent. Video should be lowercase.--[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 11:13, 5 February 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> :That sounds good. I also figured it was too early to make an article for the cowboy, especially since all we know about him is pretty much summarized in &quot;The Cowboy&quot; video. I kinda jumped the gun with Uncle Franklin and that was pointless =(<br /> :[[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 17:03, 5 February 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> shouldnt we add like a whatever u would call it section for like all the canon people that just post the videos like tachyon and brother?<br /> <br /> :Yeah, we definitely need to add them... I guess I'm still sorta in denial that they're canon. Ugh.--[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 18:41, 13 February 2007 (CST)<br /> ::Amen to that JayBrotha haha. [[User:HyeMew|HyeMew]] 18:43, 13 February 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> <br /> :::Hows that? --[[User:Iris2009|Iris2009]] 18:47, 13 February 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> == Gemma ==<br /> <br /> Shouldn't Alex replace gemma as a main character by now?<br /> <br /> :Alex hasn't even made a blog. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 20:58, 17 March 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> Well, shouldn't Gemma be at least moved out of Main Char.'s section considering she isn't on the main page with BD&amp;J anymore? [[User:Chelseyrl|Chelseyrl]] 00:35, 8 April 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Redesign ==<br /> <br /> ok now that we finished with the list of videos redesign, i thought, ok its time for a redesign of the list of characters. So I created a redesign page. ignore the stuff i did at first, it was just to get something started and is totally lame. can someone with some design talent work on it? -[[User:Misty|Misty]] 17:45, 1 April 2007 (CDT)<br /> :: The redesign is live, I'd like to thank everyone for thier help. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 10:42, 8 May 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> what about the creators?--[[User:Iris2009|TJ Marsh]] 16:34, 9 May 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :This page is for characters ''within'' the series, not people who help make it. In other words, these are characters in the [[Breeniverse]]. [[The Creators]] don't fall in that group.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:31, 9 May 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Other Blogging Characters ==<br /> <br /> It's now obvious that Nikki B, Jules and taylor are all now canon character so they balong on the list of characters. The description under ARG characters best fit those videos, so i figured they bleonged in that group, but there is no more ARG, and these characters were never part of the ARG, so I renamed the group &quot;other blogging character&quot;, which would be more apropriate. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 11:43, 27 April 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> I cropped the pictures of Carl and Sonia so they would fit better -[[User:FH14|FH14]] 3:01, 05 June 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Animal Characters? ==<br /> <br /> Animals don't have pages, with the exception of [[Gemma's dog]], and they aren't &quot;characters&quot; persay. But if it is necessary, then by all means, tell me. [[User:SilverBULLETx3|silverX3]] 15:18, 24 May 2007 (CDT)<br /> :I've actually been building pages for [[Gemma's dog]], [[Piglet]], and [[Colossus]]. It might be kind of neat to include them at this point... --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 01:11, 7 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::If stuffed animals have pages, real animals should certainly get them. --[[User:Truncatedslinky|slinky]] 01:15, 7 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> Is it Just Me, or are the boxes screwed up for the Animals. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:12, 17 June 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> Fixed. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:52, 16 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Cool Page ==<br /> <br /> I really like the design of this page! The pictures are awesome. :) [[User:Wingless earthbound|Wingless earthbound]] 14:13, 1 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Trivial characters ==<br /> <br /> There has been an increase of trivial characters added to this page that I think should be removed. Just because someone is mentioned in passing (e.g. Sam). doesn't make them a character. I think we need to limit this page to characters that matter to the plot. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 17:40, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> :I agree, but how about we keep them on THIS page and take out the links in their name, since some of the characters (like Sarah's Jay) have all the information we currently have on them in their little boxes anyway. That way, we don't get redundant character pages that only have a sentence or two. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:18, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::I don't think they belong on this page even. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 21:16, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> :Well, this ''is'' an encyclopdia. We've got to be comprehensive without being redundant. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:21, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> :: I suppose you think we should have a character box for Rosencrantz, Gildenstern, Alestair Crowley and Pluto. All of those as as much LG15 characters as Sam, Jay and Gemma's flatmate. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 22:24, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::: As I see it, this is absolutely non-negotiable. There is no other Lonelygirl15 wiki and we have to be comprehensive. If you would like minor characters to be listed, rather than put in boxes, okay. But deleting minor characters is absolutely unacceptable. There's nowhere else that has the functionality to track the minutiae of the series -- that's our purpose. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 22:27, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::: There's no page about Crowley or Pluto?!?!? --[[User:Truncatedslinky|slinky]] 01:17, 7 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::::Yes, there is a page about [[Aleister Crowley]], there's a page for [[Rosencrantz &amp; Guildenstern Are Dead]], but there's not a character box as their are not essentially characters. [[User:SilverBULLETx3|silverX3]] 10:23, 19 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> Wel;l since everyone seems to think that trivial characters belong, I made a separate catagory for them since the don't meet with the criteria of &quot;mentioned in several of the videos&quot; for Unseen characters. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 17:37, 8 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> =='Stuffed' Characters??==<br /> I like the addition of Taylor's trolls, but since they aren't really 'stuffed,' is there a possible solution for the category with a misnomer-ish title? &quot;Toy Characters&quot; perhaps? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:27, 30 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :That's not a bad idea.. does anyone have any thoughts about this? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 13:25, 14 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Official character colors ==<br /> <br /> It has become apparent that we need to establish official colors for each character. That color should be used everywhere that color is used to represent character/actor, and should be unique to that actor. once established, I propse, that there should be a rule that no changes can be made unless there is a consensus after a minimum of 3 days of discussion on this page. Currently the colors are<br /> {|<br /> | Bree = '''[[Bree|&lt;font color=DeepPink&gt;DeepPink&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Daniel = '''[[Daniel|&lt;font color=MidnightBlue&gt;MidnightBlue&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Jonas = '''[[Jonas|&lt;font color=DarkOrange&gt;DarkOrange&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | OpAphid = '''[[OpAphid|&lt;font color=#627d6d&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;font color=#627d6d&gt;#627d6d&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> |-<br /> | Gemma = '''[[Gemma|&lt;font color=CornflowerBlue&gt;CornflowerBlue&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Tachyon = '''[[Tachyon|&lt;font color=#B7D5B9&gt;#B7D5B9&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Brother = '''[[Brother|&lt;font color=#61B167&gt;#61B167&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Nikki Bower = '''[[Nikki Bower|&lt;font color=DarkViolet&gt;DarkViolet&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> |-<br /> | Owen = '''[[Owen|&lt;font color=Green&gt;Green&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | P. Monkey = '''[[P. Monkey|&lt;font color=Purple&gt;Purple&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Thor = '''[[Thor|&lt;font color=Crimson&gt;Crimson &lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> |Daniel's puppy = '''[[Daniel's puppy|&lt;font color= Chocholate &gt;Chocolate&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> |-<br /> | Jules = '''[[Jules|&lt;font color=lightsalmon&gt;LightSalmon&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Sarah = '''[[Sarah|&lt;font color= #976&gt; #976&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Taylor = '''[[Taylor|&lt;font color=skyBlue&gt;SkyBlue&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Spencer = '''[[Spencer|&lt;font color=limegreen&gt;LimeGreen&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> |-<br /> | Lucy = '''[[Lucy|&lt;font color=Orange&gt;Orange&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Alex = '''[[Alex|&lt;font color=Red&gt;Red&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Carl = '''[[Carl|&lt;font color= DarkOliveGreen &gt; DarkOliveGreen &lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> | Sonia = '''[[Sonia|&lt;font color=Plum&gt;Plum&lt;/font&gt;]]'''<br /> <br /> |}<br /> Please Propose any additions/Changes. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 06:45, 2 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :I support the idea that each character/actor has a unique color. That said, I also restate my opinion that I would like to see a bigger difference between Bree's and Jules' colors, since they are rather similar looking on the videolist. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:01, 3 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> '''Ideas for Jules:'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=lightsalmon&gt;lightsalmon&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=lightcoral&gt;lightcoral&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=tomato&gt;tomato&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=palevioletred&gt;palevioletred&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=goldenrod&gt;goldenrod&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=darksalmon&gt;darksalmon&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> '''&lt;font color=thistle&gt;thistle&lt;/font&gt;'''&lt;br&gt;<br /> <br /> :: I can get more if no one likes these.. but what do people think? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 01:19, 3 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> :::I was going to suggest '''&lt;font color=salmon&gt;salmon&lt;/font&gt;''', but '''&lt;font color=lightsalmon&gt;lightsalmon&lt;/font&gt;''' is good too. How about '''&lt;font color=LimeGreen&gt;LimeGreen&lt;/font&gt;''' for Spenser since '''&lt;font color=Lime&gt;Lime&lt;/font&gt;''' is too bright -[[User:Misty|misty]] 12:35, 3 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> Lightsalmon ('''&lt;font color=lightsalmon&gt;CMJ&lt;/font&gt;''') and LimeGreen ('''&lt;font color=LimeGreen&gt;LA&lt;small&gt;LR&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/font&gt;''') sound good to me! Any last minute objections, or should I go ahead and make the changes? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:34, 4 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> :I'm happy with Lightsalmon and LimeGreen as well, even though I'm still wary about Spence's initial (but that's another story :) )--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 23:44, 4 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::Okay, going ahead and making the changes! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:06, 5 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :: OK a couple more suggestions, Carl = '''&lt;font color=DarkOliveGreen&gt;DarkOliveGreen&lt;/font&gt;''' , Sarah = '''&lt;font color=RosyBrown &gt;RosyBrown&lt;/font&gt;''' , Daniels Puppy = '''&lt;font color= Chocholate &gt;Chocolate&lt;/font&gt;''', Taylor's Troll Dolls = '''&lt;font color= Fuchsia &gt;Fuchsia &lt;/font&gt; --[[User:Misty|misty]] 20:31, 6 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> :Cool colors, Misty! (But I like Sarah's current color) How do you even know those guys exist?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:11, 6 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> well I'm going to interpret this as support for the changes, pheon it didn't seem to me you were trying to object to changing sarah, if i'm wrong correct me. SO I'm adding them to the list and with no objections I'll make the changes al around tomarrow -[[User:Misty|misty]] 02:05, 10 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> :I would have to say I agree with Pheon, I'm not crazy about the new Sarah color. I think we should stick with what we had for her. The rest look good! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:27, 10 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::Yes, to clarify, I'd ask to keep Sarah's colors as is. But I will say I enjoy the other changes --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:18, 10 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> Misty, I saw that you made the changes for Sarah's color, but I was under the impression that the consensus was to leave it as is? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 12:47, 12 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> I have reverted Sarah's color, as the consensus was to leave it as is. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 13:25, 14 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> Ok we need to think about colors for the KM characters, and Warpylol needs a color I'm going to make suggestions tomorrow but I thought I would give someone else the chance to jump in first. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 02:05, 10 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :Okay, with KateModern, I actually made all the pages in that '''&lt;font color=&quot;#ae2301&quot;&gt;ae2301&lt;/font&gt;''' color on PURPOSE. I felt like it gave it some uniformity (and I know how much you like uniformity ;)) within the series and just kept everything neaty and tighty and.. from getting overly complicated. Maybe that color could become the official &quot;KateModern Project&quot; character color? And what about '''&lt;font color=&quot;ForestGreen&quot;&gt;ForestGreen&lt;/font&gt;''' for War? I'm pretty sure we don't have that color yet... and it seems... &quot;suiting&quot;? Ugh I need to go to bed now, this probably wasn't terribly coherant, but hopefully it all made sense and sounds good :) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:27, 10 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Issac Gillman? ==<br /> <br /> He should be under unseen characters, right? Yes, he has been &quot;heard&quot; in a voicemail, but that shouldn't count. I'm getting the official O.K. from everyone now before I do anything. Love, [[User:-R-|-R-]] 19:28, 11 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> :: I agree. I can also se the other side, he is after all dead., but personally I don't think the fact of his dying is merits promoting him to a higher catagory. -Misty[[User:Misty|misty]] 04:12, 12 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::: Exactly, I see what you mean. Love, [[User:-R-|-R-]] 04:15, 12 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> :::: Even though he isn't ''that'' noteworthy, he ''is'' deceased. If you put a deceased character in the unseen category, it totally defeats the purpose of categorizing characters. &lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 11:34, 17 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == The L is Missing ==<br /> <br /> Maybe it is just my computer but the L in List is missing when i go on this because it is hidden or cut off. - [[Houdini]]<br /> :Hmmm . . . I seem to be getting the same thing too.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 18:21, 24 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::The L is cut off on my computer as well. I think it is hidden. &lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 25 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Meep! ==<br /> <br /> I added Daniel's grandma (as mentioned in [[Comfort Food]]) to the Trivial Characters section, and the characterboxes are now over to the right, and the Trivial Characters section is messed up. Help? &lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:07, 26 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Deacons + unseen = meep! ==<br /> <br /> I'm pretty sure that the Deacons are ''not'' unseen characters. Bree told us that the Deacons (and the Elders) were at [[the Ceremony]] (the fake Ceremony, that is), plus the individual Deacon that [[Kenneth Goodfried]] portrays is in [[On The Run]] and [[The Unthinkable Happened]], alongside [[Lucy]]. I'm going to move them to Guest Characters. &lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:02, 27 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == LaRezisto ==<br /> <br /> I would add LaRezisto myself, but I'm not exactly sure where to put him (maybe Supporting Characters), and I would probably mess the whole page up. Help? &lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:09, 12 August 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == DB's folks ==<br /> <br /> We did technically see an arm &amp; shoulder of Daniel's dad. Does that move him and/or Daniel's parents from &quot;Unseen&quot; to &quot;Guest&quot; ?? ~ '''[[User:Jbshryne|&lt;span style=&quot;color:darkgreen&quot;&gt;JB&lt;small&gt;SHRYNE&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]''' 11:00, 15 August 2007 (CDT)<br /> :I think that merits Daniel's Dad to get moved to seen. --[[User:FH14|FH14]]<br /> <br /> == Mallory ==<br /> [[Image:0274-MallorySmiling-Cropped.jpg|thumb|right|125px|Mallory picture]]<br /> <br /> If you need to promote [[Mallory]] from unseen to supporting then here is a cropped picture in the right ratio. [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 17:50, 30 August 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> --Has Mall always been a supporting char? or only after Daniel found that she was cheating on him? [[User:Surfthetsu|Surfthetsu]]<br /> <br /> ==Former Character Section?==<br /> * The Supporting Characters Section is getting quite bulky. Maybe we could make a &quot;former characters&quot; section for characters who will most likely not appear in the series again but aren't deceased (i.e. Alex, Jules, amd *sob* Spencer; plus, it might be a better place to put OpAphid, Brother, and Tachyon.) What does everyone think? --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 20:48, 10 September 2007 (EST)<br /> :Added Section, though the alignment seems to be a bit off. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:35, 11 September 2007 (EST)<br /> * Is the &quot;Former Character&quot; section considered tentative? I wondering why Mallory and Dr. Hart are in that category? (Mallory's story seems unresolved, she just kind of disappeared after her last video from Daniel's room. And although it did appear Dr. Hart was going to be captured at the end of Season 2, and he seemed to be saying his farewells, it is not conclusive that he was killed.) Maybe the category should be &quot;Former or Inactive Characters&quot; or something like that? ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]]<br /> * All of the Former character have the &quot;possibility&quot; to return to the series. The person who played Dr. Hart said somewhere that Bloodlines Part 4 was his final episode, and Mallory hasn't appeared in over a month. Sure she might return, but so could Alex, Jules, Spencer, etc, as some could argue that their exit didn't provide much closure either. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 11:13, 15 February 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Supporting Characters ==<br /> <br /> So, I've been thinking about this a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that we have been a bit over-zealous as we've been adding characters to the &quot;Supporting Characters&quot; section. To me, a supporting character is someone who has &quot;been in many video blogs&quot; and &quot;contribues to the plot&quot;. Just because Carla and Toby appeared in two video blogs, doesn't qualify them as significant supporting characters, imo. They were both cameo roles, and did not contribute a great deal to the plot either way. I mean, Watchers are still under guest characters, even though we've seen them a lot more, ''and'' they've contributed a great deal more to the plot. I just cannot see justification for Carla and Toby being up there. I also removed Jonas's parents from that list, at least for now. They seem to be phasing out as Emma moves on and joins TAAG. They have been only in a few videos, and just don't seem important enough for now to constitute a top-spot listing on the character page. Hey, I am actually hesistant about leaving Mallory up there, but I thought I would give her some time... I have a feeling she may grow into something more significant, so I didn't want to remove her just yet.<br /> <br /> I was also kind of iffy on Barb, but she has appeared in a number of videos, and along with Carl and Sonia at Jonas's parent's house that one time. Depending on how much playtime she gets in the future, I might be able to see moving her down, but for now, I thought I'd leave her up there, since she seems to be part of the &quot;young Hymn of Oneies&quot; along with Carl and Sonia.<br /> <br /> Anyways, I just wanted to explain my changes to you. I'd love to hear thoughts and feedback on this. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:15, 22 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> :I agree, Zoey. We've been adding to the Supporting Characters section a lot lately. Currently these are the people that are in the section:<br /> *[[Lucy]]<br /> *[[Nikki Bower]]<br /> *[[Carl]]<br /> *[[Sonia]]<br /> *[[Barb]]<br /> *LaRezisto<br /> *[[Emma]]<br /> *[[Mallory]]<br /> Actually, now I see that someone cleaned up the section. I'm fine with Lucy, Nikki B, Carl, Sonia, LaRezisto, Emma, and Mallory staying (Mallory's only been in two videos but I think she is something important). I mean, Barb ''has'' been in a lot of videos, but does she contribute to the plot as much as Carl or Sonia? I don't think so. She's just another Hymnie! And about Watchers... does anyone think that maybe instead of Barb we could have Watchers up there since we've seen like a million Watchers? I like the idea of it. [[User:72.95.224.117|72.95.224.117]] 10:49, 22 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ::I'm fine with moving down Barb, if that's what people agree on. She was iffy for me, I wasn't sure. I wasn't trying to make an argument for moving Watchers up though. I think they're too... mysterious at this point. Plus, with [[Shadows]] coming in and all, who knows which Order members will be most important... oh, and also, they're like.. a group of people.. not just.. one person. And yeah, I don't think we should move Watchers up, but I'm okay with moving Barb down. What do y'all think? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 14:46, 23 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::: I agree! And I'll be more careful about the KM people too - I got a bit overzealous earlier tonight! -- [[User:Theresa|Theresa]] 16:19, 23 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> :::: I still think that Watchers should be in the Supporting Characters section. Seriously... lately, Watchers have been popping up in just about every video - there's Watchers in KM now too (Michelle Clore's bodyguards)! Anyhow, Watchers have been around since GEMMA... think how long ago that was... and they still make regular appearances and contributions to the plot. Barb can be moved down, and replaced with Watchers? Also - a quick thing, I don't think Spencer's coming back. We should move him from Main Characters to Former Characters. &lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 08:58, 24 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> ::::: I agree with everything that has been said... well, except for the Barb thing (with the watchers I'm not leaning either way). She isn't just another Hymn of Oneian, (like Chris), she has appeared numerous times in Bree's recruitment videos and possibly was the fifth person at the table in &quot;The Family Affair&quot;. Also, May I be so bold as to suggest that Emma be moved to the main character section? --{[[User:FH14|FH14]] 15:44, 25 September 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> Thoughts:<br /> :Barb, yes she's been in a few videos, but I'm actually thinking she should be taken down on further speculation. She hasn't really contributed to the plot. I mean, think of her compared to Carl or Sonia. She just isn't contributing enough yet. I think that for now, I'd move her down... and if she becomes a more prominent character in the future, it can be reconsidered then, methinks.<br /> <br /> :Watchers still against this. They really are just a ''series'' of characters who lurk in the background. They dont contribute much to the plot other than scaring the group into running. With the Shadows and all the other crazy order members coming out of the woodworks, I just dont think Watchers need to be up on this list right now.<br /> <br /> :Spencer - Yeah, he should be moved down to former characters and taken off the front page/top characters for the navigation bar etc. He will still be on the navigation bar though.. ugh this might be easier to just do and get opinions on after the fact.<br /> <br /> :Emma - Not quite enough of her yet to officialy make her worthy of main characters.<br /> <br /> :Now I need sleep. So I'll make some of these changes and we can talk on the talk page in the mean time. Just to get it up and see what everybody thinks. Can be reverted if there is serious objection tommorow for further discussion!<br /> <br /> --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:33, 26 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ==Status Changes==<br /> Should Claire be added to Supporting Characters? She has had a major impact on the story, a few appearances, and a likelihood for a larger future role... what does everyone else think? --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 20:21, October 1 2007 (EST)<br /> :EDIT: I'd also like to propose that Nikki Bower and Taylor be moved to former characters for now, seeing as they haven't been seen in a WHILE, until further notice. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:06, 4 October 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==My List For Statuses==<br /> I have prepared a whole list of characters for their &quot;statuses&quot; or categories, I guess. Here they are.<br /> :Main Characters<br /> ::[[Daniel]], [[Jonas]], [[Sarah]], [[Emma]], and [[Mallory]]<br /> :Supporting Characters<br /> ::[[Lucy]], [[Nikki Bower]], [[Carl]], [[Sonia]], [[Watcher|Watchers]], [[Claire]], and LaRezisto<br /> :Missing or Deceased Characters<br /> ::[[Bree]], [[Bree's parents#Father|Drew Avery]], [[Gemma]], [[Alex's parents]], [[Daniel's grandma]], and [[Isaac Gilman]]<br /> :Former Characters<br /> ::[[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], [[Brother]], [[Jules]], [[Taylor]], [[Alex]], and [[Spencer]]<br /> :Stuffed Characters<br /> ::[[Purple Monkey]], [[Owen]], [[Thor]], [[The Other Monkey]], [[Daniel's puppy]], [[Taylor's Troll Dolls]], and [[the Dancing Turtle]]<br /> :Guest Characters<br /> ::[[Bree's parents#Mother|Bree's mom]], [[Deacon|Deacons]], [[Random Girl]], [[The Cowboy (character)|the Cowboy]], [[The party guests#David|David]], [[The party guests#Damien|Damien]], [[Carla]], [[Toby]], [[The party guests#Beth|Beth]], [[The party guests#Will|Will]], [[The party guests#Finn|Finn]], [[The party guests#Claudia|Claudia]], [[The party guests#|Seth|Seth]], [[Cameron]], [[Rebecca]], [[Jennifer]], [[Barb]], [[Chris]], [[The Mistress (character)|the Mistress]], [[Terry]], [[Shadow|Shadows]], [[Elder|Elders]], [[Swallow]], [[Jerry]], [[Jonas's parents|Jonas's dad]], [[Jonas's parents|Jonas's mom]], [[Jill]], [[Adopting couple|the adopting couple]], [[Daniel's parents|Daniel's dad]], [[Mark]], and [[Steve (lonelygirl15)|Steve]]<br /> :Animal Characters<br /> ::[[Gemma's dog]], [[Sascha]], [[Warwalking|Kitty!]], [[Piglet]], [[Colossus]], [[Herman]], and [[Shadow of Death|the Coyote]]<br /> :Unseen Characters<br /> ::[[Cassie]], [[Paul]], [[Andrea]], [[Daniel's parents|Daniel's mom]], [[Gemma's Mom|Gemma's mom]], [[Bree's parents#Bree's biological parents|Bree's birth parents]], [[Franklin]], [[Jules's Parents|Jules's parents]], [[Taylor and Sarah's Parents|Taylor and Sarah's parents]], [[Samantha|Taylor's BFF Sam]], [[Spencer's mom]], and [[Scott]]<br /> :Trivial Characters<br /> ::[[Gemma's flatmate]], [[Gemma|Gemma's crush Sam]], [[Walter]], [[Kira]], [[Relationships#Sarah and Jay|Jay]], [[Relationships#Sarah and Jay|Vanessa]], [[Relationships#Sarah and the bartender|the bartender]], [[Relationships#Sarah and the bartender|Britanny]], [[Perry]], [[D-C-cubed]], [[Ira Cronenberg]], [[Jack]], [[Relationships#Sarah and Joe|Joe]], and [[Garett Lovett]]<br /> :Ambiguous Mystery People<br /> ::[[Bukanator]]<br /> So, I hope that helped a bit. Just my opinions.<br /> ::&lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:25, 14 October 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> ==Watchers and Supporting Characters==<br /> I know, there's about 15 sections discussing status changes, but because there's been so much desputing over The Watchers and Supporting Characters. Now I know Zoey's put her foot down about this because watchers are a group and not an individual character, and I agree with this. But I know some people are still strongly believe that the watchers belong there. I got to thinking, Maybe a separate page could be created for the Watcher played by Joe Rubin as, unlike other watchers, He's had a speaking part and had a somewhat individual involvement in the plot. I dunno. It's just an idea. I'd like to see what everyone else thinks. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 10:41, 21 October 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Recurring Character Section?==<br /> I've been thinking about this for a while, and I finally decided to propose it: a Recurring Character Section. I know what some of you may be thinking: Supporting and Recurring Characters are the same thing. Well, some do consider them the same thing, but they can also be used to classify two different categories. If considered two categories, then ''Supporting Characters'' would be considered characters that appear a good amount and contribute to the plot, though not to the extent of the main characters. (i.e. Lucy, Nikki B, Sonia, Carl, etc.) ''Recurring Characters'' are characters who appear more than normal guest characters but have less of an impact than Supporting Characters. (i.e. Jonas's Parents, Chris, Barb, etc.) What does everyone else think? (BTW, even though I'm the one proposing this, I'm on the fence about it) --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:02, 3 November 2007 (EST)<br /> :I was acutally thinking about the same thing. '''Strong support.'''<br /> ::&lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 13:08, 4 November 2007 (CST)<br /> Eh, I'm not so sure about this... I kind of feel like we have WAY more sections than we need as is. I've actually been thinking of ways to ''condense'' the sections instead of expand them... but that's just me? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:30, 10 November 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> == Condensing the Character List ==<br /> <br /> In my opinion, the character list is a mess. We have so many categories that overlap, it's just a nightmare to try and figure out where to put things. So I want to simplify it. Here are my thoughts:<br /> *We should combine former characters with the Missing and Deceased characters into one big &quot;Former Characters&quot; category with a description of &quot;For various reasons, these former characters no longer appear in the series.&quot; That way we don't have to worry about whether they're dead or not, we just know that they're not appearing in the series anymore. And we can also get rid of all those ugly boxes with the &quot;No picture available&quot; and just move them down to unseen characters, where they really do belong, as they are unseen. We, as an audience, have no real emotional connection to them.<br /> *I'm having a tough time understanding the difference between unseen and trivial characters. I just.. where do you draw the line? And how do you know? I mean, Gemma's mom is pretty trivial at this point in the story, but back then for all we know she could have developed into more. I think it makes most sense to just combine the two and not worry about how significant they are, otherwise we're going to drive ourselves nuts on a case-by-case situation.<br /> *I also think we should better define what makes a character as far as Animal Characters and Stuffed Characters goes. My thoughts:<br /> **P Monkey, Owen, and Thor were characters. they were Bree's friends. She gave them names and personalities. T.O.M., Daniel's puppy, Taylor's troll dolls, and The Dancing Turtle, they were props. They were gifts, they were something to snuggle with at night maybe. But they were just toys. They had no names, they were not personified in any way. They were not characters.<br /> **For animal characters, the same thing should apply that does for human characters. A person's pet or an animal they have a significant emotional attatchment to is a character. A random kitty you see on the side of the street isn't. Like if Bree pointed at someone and said tall! that wouldnt make &quot;Tall man&quot; a character. It would just make him someone she observed.<br /> <br /> I think these changes will help clean up the page and make it more understandable to new people who are trying to make sense of things. I'd love to hear your thoughts before I go ahead and make the changes though, so please comment! Thanks! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:53, 10 November 2007 (CST)<br /> :I see what you mean. Here's my take on it:<br /> ::1) I agree that the trivial and unseen characters should be combined.<br /> ::2) Maybe we could create a condensed list page of characters... that sounded weird... I mean like how most of the party guests don't have their own page, and their info is on the party guests page... ugh... I'm having a hard time explaining this. I'm going to try to design what I'm trying to say on my sandbox... --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:01, 10 November 2007 (EST)<br /> ::Okay. Basically, [[User:FH14/sandbox|here]]'s what I'm suggesting for the Stuffed Characters, and maybe others... --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:50, 10 November 2007 (EST)<br /> Hm, I'm not really sure how I feel about that actually. I feel like characters ''should'' be a total comprehensive list. I just think we need to define what makes a character. I mean, how is Daniel's puppy any more of a character than... Jonas's boxing gloves? Or his guitar? I mean, that just doesn't make sense to me. I'm also not crazy about dividing the guest characters into season one and season two, because there's already a fair amount of overlap and... how do we treat those characters? I feel like that will get messy and end up making things harder instead of easier... that's just me though. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:14, 10 November 2007 (CST)<br /> ::I actually agree with you on the guest characters thing (I was just seeing how it would look). Random Thought: Maybe there should be a non-human character section combining the Animal and Stuffed Character Sections. Maybe There should be a &quot;Props&quot; page too. I'm sorry, I'm rambling X_X --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:36, 10 November 2007 (EST)<br /> :::Non-human characters isn't a bad idea! But I still think we need to stick with what the definition of a character actually is. And I think props page would probably be taking things too far. Can you imagine? Every single prop that appears in a video? Eek, my brain aches just thinking of all the trouble that could cause.. :X --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:41, 10 November 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> == New Look ==<br /> <br /> Looks awesome! Love the former characters and non-human characters, but why is Virgil a supporting character? And is there a reason we don't have the picture of [[Gemma's dog]] and [[Herman]] the squirrel? [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 21:21, 16 November 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> == Chris ==<br /> <br /> Should Chris be moved to Supporting Characters? His role has been semi-prominent lately... What does everyone think? --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 11:06, 18 November 2007 (EST)<br /> *I don't know, I think he should be at the same level as Barb. [[User:72.95.224.117|72.95.224.117]] 12:00, 22 November 2007 (CST)<br /> :I agree that he's not a supporting character yet, he needs to be in more videos first. The supporting characters need to have a certain prominence in the overall storyline in order to get there, if you ask me. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 19:04, 24 November 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> == Mallory and Taylor ==<br /> <br /> So I know some people have been pushing to bump Taylor up to &quot;Main Characters&quot; but I do not think this is accurate. She is currently a supporting character. She posts vidoes from Zavalla giving them advice, but she's not a main member of TAAG, she's not actually /living/ the drama. And I know that right now everyone is seperated, but really, they all call California home right now, but Taylor, she doesn't. I just see her as a supporting character.<br /> <br /> That said, I actually think it's time to move Mallory down to a supporting character as well. Right now she just exists to be Daniel's girlfriend... &quot;Support&quot; his role. She's not fighting the Order really, she's off doing her own life and just pops up to do girlfriendly things. I don't really know how to explain it better than that, but really, she ''has'' dropped to supporting in my mind.<br /> <br /> So I think I'm going to move Mallory down to supporting... and I'm actually going to move Virgil down to guest again. Because unless he comes back and starts appearing in more videos long term, he could only even ''possibly'' be considered &quot;supporting&quot; during his own arc. In fact, I suppose there's always the chance that if Mallory leaves after she and Daniel break up (I'm sure Daniel will realize she's having an affair... ahem xD) then she might need to be moved down too. But since we originally treated her as &quot;main&quot; I say we can give her the benefit of the doubt for now and put her at supporting.<br /> <br /> But yeah, basically I think supporting characters should be characters who outlast their one arc (and popping in for a quick cameo here and there after said arc doesn't really count) and contribute to the story long term. Just my thoughts.<br /> <br /> I'll make the changes, but certainly feel free to reply with your thoughts! :) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 01:44, 29 November 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> :I agree that Mallory and Taylor are definately more of supporting roles at this point. The supporting role definately needs to be defined, as there are many characters that are in a gray area between supporting and guest. The biggest one I see is Jonas's parents. If they appear again, I'm tempted to say that they should be moved up to supporting. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 08:01, 6 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Carl, Sonia, and Jennie ==<br /> <br /> I think based on what we've seen lately (including the [[Jonas Conference Call]] and the behind the scenes holiday photos), we should make some changes to the character page. I think Carl should be moved down from supporting characters, as he's not really a major supporting character, and hasn't been for some time (not since Bree's death). I also think we should move Sonia down to &quot;Former Characters,&quot; as based on the Jonas Phone Call, she seems to have vanished, possibly long term. I also think we should move Jennie up to Supporting Characters, as she was in the holiday BTS photos, which implies that she's going to be sticking around... and she's also made a bunch of solo video blogs lately, so it really does seem that she's going to be a stronger character coming up. Actually, based on the BTS photos, we might eventually end up moving both Jennie and Mallory up to Main Characters... but I think we should wait and see what happens before doing that. Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:40, 21 December 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> EDIT: You know, upon further thought, I'm actually thinking that maybe we should move [[Dr. Calvin Hart]] up to supporting characters too. And maybe it ''is'' time to make a recurring characters section... which I would propose includes [[Lucy]], [[Carl]], and both of [[Jonas's parents]]. I'm going to look at the list one more time just to be sure... but yeah, this is what I'm thinking about right now... thoughts? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:53, 21 December 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> :Sounds good, but what makes Lucy more of a recurring character than Sonia?<br /> :Also, I wouldn't consider Mallory's appearance on that pic as any sign of a long-term commitment - while I am part of the fraction that voted &quot;yes&quot;, it could also be just a &quot;current cast&quot; snapshot, and Mallory gets written out next month...<br /> :Not saying it happens that way, I just think that the opposite way might've been an unwanted spoiler - i.e. if Mallory has already been written out, and they hadn't put her on the picture, people would've started asking &quot;why isn't Mallory on the christmas pic? Hmm, guess she doesn't return then :(&quot;.<br /> ::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:50, 21 December 2007 (CST)<br /> :I completely agree with this proposal. Though about the recurring character section, should Chris, Virgil, and (possibly) Claudia be included as well? --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:36, 21 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> Regarding...<br /> <br /> Mallory - I agree, she may not be around... or she may. That's why I think she should stay a supporting character until we can see long-term where she stands.<br /> <br /> Sonia - I would consider Sonia a &quot;former&quot; character for a few reasons. Unlike Lucy, who often pops up unannounced and then leaves for long chunks of time, Sonia was featured heavily and then just vanished. Also, on the [[Jonas Conference Call]], someone specifically asked about Sonia's whereabouts, and Jonas answered with a vague &quot;I don't hear from her anymore&quot; kind of an answer. To me, that kind of implied that she wasn't sticking around. However, if she comes back, we can always un-former her.<br /> <br /> Chris/Claudia - I do not really think Chris and Claudia can count as &quot;Recurring&quot; to the same extent as Carl does. Carl has played a much more prominent role in the story for a much longer time. Those two just seem like.. current supporting characters to me, not really recurring (they haven't been around very long at all, they aren't the ones whose names are mentioned... like when Jennie [[Procreating on Peyote|mentions]] kissing Carl and his black aura, etc). I don't think, at this point, we can really consider them recurring, but maybe with time that will change.<br /> <br /> Virgil - I agree, good call.<br /> <br /> --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:23, 21 December 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::Here's a sample of what it could look like with the proposed changes: [[User:FH14/Sandbox]] --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 02:39, 23 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> :::My thoughts on the following characters:<br /> <br /> :::Mallory - She should stay at supporting unless her roll is increasingly less and less, she might be moved to Recurring (which should really be created) or even Former, if need be.<br /> <br /> :::Sonia - She was once a supporting character. However, from the Jonas Conference Call, it sort of seemed like she's not going to be on the show anymore. Move her to Former. However, if she comes back a few times, move her to Recurring.<br /> <br /> :::Chris/Claudia/Carl - They can be at Recurring, just as Carl can be.<br /> <br /> :::Virgil - Recurring.<br /> <br /> :::Lucy - Recurring.<br /> <br /> :::Nikki - Recurring.<br /> <br /> :::Jonas's parents - Recurring.<br /> <br /> ::::&lt;span style=&quot;background:DarkSlateGray&quot;&gt;[[User:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/font&gt;]] &lt;small&gt;[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|&lt;font color=&quot;white&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 13:13, 23 December 2007 (CST)<br /> :::::Nikki seems to best fall under supporting actually. She posts her own videos and has a lot of camera time. (Plus, I think there'd be a outcry if Nikki were moved down to recurring. As for Chris and Claudia, Chris is borderline at this point, as there is a strong argument for either guest or recurring at this point. Claudia really hasn't had enough camera time or significance beyond the number of times she has appeared to merit recurring. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:51, 24 December 2007 (EST)<br /> ::I like the above characters to be &quot;recurring&quot; (which should probably be created soon) that Silver mentions. I also think we need Jennie as either Supporting or maybe-even main character (seeing as she's been posting a good amount of vids and she's got a Forum-name and she'll be giving a chat today) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:41, 2 January 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> Okay, I am really opposed to having Chris and Claudia as recurring. Recurring means they are significant characters who keep coming back with a variety of story arcs. Claudia has only been around for this story arc and Chris has never been a significant character until this story arc... heck, I don't even think he's a significant character IN this story arc... more like a recurring character within the story arc. Heh, yeah I actually kind of like that. They are so minor that they are just recurring characters in ONE story arc. They just don't make sense to me in the &quot;Recurring&quot; section at all! (Sorry if this didn't make much sense.. I'm really tired, I'll try to clarify in the morning if it was confusing... but yeah... hopefully I got across what I was trying to say!) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:12, 11 January 2008 (CST)<br /> :Agreed Zoey. But due to recent developments, some of the categories where we deemed characters should be have merited change. (Sorry if that sounded odd, I'm not 100% right now :P)<br /> ::Lucy - Due to her recent surge of activity, I think we should leave her as supporting for now at least.<br /> ::Nikki Bower - Now that she's popping up even less than before, I'm tempted to say that she should be recurring.<br /> ::Taylor - Leave her as supporting for now, seeing as she just made a new video, but if she goes two weeks without posting another, maybe she should be moved to recurring.<br /> ::Mallory - If she doesn't reappear in the next week, I say she should be moved to former. Her last mention was rather... final...<br /> ::Jennie - She's a main character on the main page, so I'm going to go ahead and move her up on this page too.<br /> ::Carl - Same as Lucy<br /> ::Virgil, Jonas's parents - Recurring as before<br /> ::Gina, Chris - they should stay guest for the time being, until they merit activity and relevance considerable enough for moving up.<br /> ::Jack - I added him to guest because footage of him was seen in Taylor's video (other non-canon-in-canon-context characters are listed under guest also (Jerry, Jennifer)) If he appears interacting in a canon video, or is deemed canon by the creators, he should be moved to supporting. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:05 14 January 2008 (EST)<br /> ==Gina==<br /> Gina does not belong in guest characters, she is with TAAG, and she is just too important. &lt;small&gt;—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:TraverseTown123|TraverseTown123]] ([[User talk:TraverseTown123|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TraverseTown123|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.&lt;/small&gt;&lt;!-- Template:Unsigned --&gt;<br /> <br /> :As of now Gina's only been in a few videos and hasn't had a major role. You're right that she probably is going to be important, but maybe we should wait until Season 3 starts to determine exactly where to place her.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 20:54, 28 January 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ==Guest Characters==<br /> First of all... this list is quite lengthy and could be livened up with pictures (seeing as we have actually seen these people)<br /> <br /> Secondly... I think this should either be put in alphebetic order or significance...because right now it just looks disorganized. --[[User:Kericanfly|Kericanfly]] 11:13, 30 January 2008 (CST)<br /> :The reason there aren't picture is because the page would get unruly and take forever to load. Anyone that has been seen has a picture on their character page. I've tried alphabetizing things before, and everytime it gets reverted. Maybe someone else would be better to answer that question, as I'm quite curious myself. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:41, 30 January 2008 (CST)<br /> ::The Order they are in is the order they have appeared in. Alphabetizing creates more work every time a new guest is added because the list has to be re-formated. Also, order of significance is a debatable issue that could cause a problem in the future. I think the lack of pictures has something to do with the size of the page, but I can't be sure. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 14:21, 30 January 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Unseen Characters ==<br /> <br /> Not all of the unseen characters are unseen anymore. <br /> Paul and Andrea were seen in the episode Missing Friends and haven't at least part of Daniel's parents been seen on camera at some point? [[User:DrZoidberg|DrZoidberg]]<br /> <br /> :As the Paul and Andrea seen in [[Missing Friends]] were fanfic characters who received shoutouts moreso than actual official characters who were made by [[the Creators]], we decided to leave them as unseen. Also, since we only ever saw Daniel's dad's arm, we decided to leave him as unseen as well. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 20:27, 3 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::Except that you are not considering that P&amp;A are real show characters regardless. They were originally mentioned and then they were shown in the show. What exactly P&amp;A is according to their LGpedia page is ambiguous as to how much creator-input and interaction went into their show so I don't think they can be dismissed as 100% fanfic either. A regular shoutout of mentioning a fan is one thing but showing people as being characters who have been mentioned on the show in the past is something different. [[User:DrZoidberg|DrZoidberg]]<br /> <br /> :::Paul and Andrea are real characters, but Paulmark18 is a fanfic creation. To suggest otherwise is akin to saying that cassieiswatching is official because Bree mentioned that her friend Cassie used to say &quot;I was here.&quot; ..Which would also make itscassie official, for that matter. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 21:34, 3 February 2008 (CST)<br /> <br /> ::::Bree never flashed a picture of Cassieiswatching on the screen when talking about Cassie, Daniel flashed a picture of Pm18 when talking about P&amp;A. Therefore, fanfic or not, Pm18 and canon P&amp;A became one in the same while ciw and Bree's Cassie remain different entities. This was the point I was trying to make why this is different than all the others. PS thank you for all the work you do here Zoey, you don't get enough thanks. [[User:DrZoidberg|DrZoidberg]]<br /> <br /> Currently, it says, &quot;Garett Lovett - A boy who Mallory once kissed.&quot; It might be easier to list the ones she hasn't kissed - just a thought. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]]<br /> <br /> ::Seriously, back when the show didn't have that many episodes listing anyone ever even mention off-hand is one thing, but now that were in the number of hundreds of episodes it just doesn't make sense to mention inconsequential characters like Garett who play no role what-so-ever besides getting a quick mention but no purpose.</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=User_talk:FH14/archive/Feb_09_-_Jun_16&diff=93363 2007-12-21T13:25:37Z

<p>64.251.53.99: /* Some Notes */</p> <hr /> <div>You've made many edits without making a comment in the summery box, or discussing them on the talk page. Please become part of the community by joining the discussions, and give reasons for your edits in the summary box. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 21:31, 2 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> :Hey, FH14! I've seen you around the LGPedia for awhile now so its cool to finally see you create a userpage!--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:54, 29 June 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> Hey FH14, before you go and create video pages for all the [[Acrowleyorder]] videos, I just wanted to verify that you actually plan to work on them. Creating pages that simply say &quot;Transcript incomplete&quot; for all those videos is pointless and wasteful with space as they don't provide any information as is. However, if you plan to transcribe them, that's fine, just please don't create the pages unless you plan to do that. Thank you. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:31, 3 July 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Redirects ==<br /> <br /> In case you didn't notice yet...Zoey is hot on your tail, ''undoing'' all your changes. If our ''head admin'' does that, you might want to think about stopping.<br /> We're trying to ''avoid'' indirect or &quot;hacked&quot; links on bloggers/characters - not to add more.<br /> :~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:40, 1 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> :Rawr. No, it's not like that. We just don't like editing IN redirects, we tend to edit them OUT. Don't worry, I know you were trying to help :) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 19:57, 1 September 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == Characters Images ==<br /> <br /> Great job on the [[Characters]] images :) The only one I'm a little &quot;iffy&quot; on is Sarah's. Do you think she looks a little too... moody? Maybe we could find one of her that's slightly... happier? Also, since you're so good at this, I was wondering if maybe you could help find a better picture of [[Alex]] to put on her page. Most of them she looks too... maniacal almost. Lol. The one I have is the only one where she looks happy.. but it's not the best picture of her.<br /> <br /> Thanks so much for your help! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 19:00, 22 October 2007 (CDT)<br /> :Welcome. I agree about the Sarah one, it's hard to find pictures of her that are flattering ang rightly proportioned... --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 20:50, 22 October 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == VirgilkillClaire.JPG ==<br /> <br /> That is a BAD-ASS picture of [[Virgil]]. X-D ~ '''[[User:Jbshryne|&lt;span style=&quot;color:darkgreen&quot;&gt;JB&lt;small&gt;SHRYNE&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]''' 02:40, 30 October 2007 (CDT)<br /> <br /> == [[Template:FakeBlog2]] ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I've seen you're using FakeBlog2 on your userpage rather than [[Template:FanPerson]]; is there any particular reason for this (design?), or were you just not aware of FanPerson? I'm just asking because FakeBlog2 was obviously designed for video-like pages, while FanPerson was specifically designed for userpages, and has several of the fields you coded by hand pre-defined and pre-linked...<br /> {{FanPerson<br /> | name = FH14<br /> | image =<br /> | first =<br /> | last =<br /> | age = NOYB<br /> | birthday =<br /> | myspace = fireh14<br /> | youtube =<br /> | revver =<br /> | forum-posts = FH14<br /> | actor = Oliver<br /> | bgcolor = #FFFFFF<br /> | color = <br /> | blogs =<br /> | unseen =<br /> | extra = {{FanPerson/Row<br /> |caption = Relatives<br /> |text = Caroline (mylilponylover), Ken, Aunt Jenna<br /> |border = off<br /> }}<br /> {{FanPerson/Header<br /> |Myspace Blogs<br /> }}<br /> {{FanPerson/Row<br /> |caption = First Blog<br /> |text = Hello Peoples<br /> }}<br /> {{FanPerson/Row<br /> |caption = Most Recent Blog<br /> |text = Inactive<br /> }}<br /> }}<br /> &lt;pre&gt;{{FanPerson<br /> | name = FH14<br /> | image =<br /> | first =<br /> | last =<br /> | age = NOYB<br /> | birthday =<br /> | myspace = fireh14<br /> | youtube =<br /> | revver =<br /> | forum-posts = FH14<br /> | actor = Oliver<br /> | bgcolor = #FFFFFF<br /> | color = <br /> | blogs =<br /> | unseen =<br /> | extra = {{FanPerson/Row<br /> |caption = Relatives<br /> |text = Caroline (mylilponylover), Ken, Aunt Jenna<br /> |border = off<br /> }}<br /> {{FanPerson/Header<br /> |Myspace Blogs<br /> }}<br /> {{FanPerson/Row<br /> |caption = First Blog<br /> |text = Hello Peoples<br /> }}<br /> {{FanPerson/Row<br /> |caption = Most Recent Blog<br /> |text = Inactive<br /> }}<br /> }}&lt;/pre&gt;<br /> [[User:-R-|Randy]] has a much more...''elaborate'' template call, if you want to see what else is possible.<br /> Just a suggestion/inquiry.<br /> :~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:49, 4 November 2007 (CST)<br /> ::Thanks. :) I wasn't aware of it actually, I'll switch it now... --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:57, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == Frankiswaking ==<br /> <br /> Do you have access to the [[frankiswaking]] videos by any chance? I saw that you had created transcripts for some of the videos... I was wondering if you wouldn't mind doing it for [[Breaking and...Stealing?]] as well? It's been... sitting there for a long time... :/ --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:20, 18 November 2007 (CST)<br /> :I would except I no longer have access to the video... You're right in that its been sitting there for a WHILE. Sorry. :( --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 02:08, 18 November 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == RE88 Credits ==<br /> <br /> Hey, I noticed that you'd added a bunch of actor credits for RE88. I was wondering where you had gotten those from? I'd like to double check that they're accurate. Thanks. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:07, 1 December 2007 (CST)<br /> :I got them from Jeromy. I sent him a message on MySpace and he responded with the missing credits --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:08, 1 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> <br /> ==Some Notes==<br /> Hey, I just wanted to draw your attention to the discussion at [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Revamping FanFic]] regarding a revamp of the fanfic section. Since you do a lot of work for those sections, I wanted to make sure you had a chance to see it.<br /> <br /> Also, I just wanted to say in general... not because I'm angry, but just for future reference... before making any massive edits to the LGPedia, such as renumbering videos or whatnot, could you please make sure to set up a discussion on the talk page? Sometimes there are issues that you may not be aware of and it's much easier to avoid them if we work proactively instead of reactively.<br /> <br /> Thanks. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 03:39, 21 December 2007 (CST)<br /> <br /> PS Oh, and minor tiny thing... could you ''please'' stop making pages with all of these [[User:FH14/Sandbox|red links]]? It messes up my special pages count!! Lol thanks.<br /> :I'm sorry, I can often be impulsive with my edits, and half the time when I make one of those kind of massive edits I regret it 5 minutes later. (BTW, I wasn't aware of the thing with the red links, I'll keep that in mind for future reference). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 08:25, 21 December 2007 (EST)</div>

64.251.53.99 http://lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=The_party_guests&diff=79965 2007-10-22T15:13:55Z

<p>64.251.53.99: </p> <hr /> <div>These characters made their first appearance at a party that [[Jonas]] and [[Daniel]] attended (featured in [[Uncle Dan]] and [[Uncle Dan (D-Bone Remix)]]. They are probably friends or at least acquaintances of Jonas's aunt, [[Alex]]. Little is known about these individuals, but if Alex's [[Alex Is...|allegiance to the Order]] is any indication, they too might be members of said [[The Order|Order]]. One of these characters was the host of the party, but it is unclear which one it was. Whoever owns the house has [[Lucy!?!?!|a picture of Lucy]] and another woman on display, indicating that Alex and at least one other person at the party are involved with [[the Order]].<br /> <br /> It was later revealed that the party was hosted by [[Rebecca]].<br /> <br /> ==David==<br /> David appears at the party wearing a chocolate-colored shirt. He takes Alex aside to talk to her and yells something about Daniel being &quot;19 years old, for Christ's sake&quot; before getting splashed by Alex's drink. There is speculation that he may be Alex's ex-husband.<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:DavidChatting.jpg|thumb|Hey, ever wanted to date a Liev Schrieber lookalike?]]<br /> |[[Image:DavidAlexShouting.jpg|thumb|Oh, sorry, was I saying that out loud? My bad.]]<br /> |[[Image:DavidAlexWine.jpg|thumb|Thanks, Alex, but I've already had a glass...]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Damien==<br /> Damien made a comment about Jonas being cute and sexy, and is therefore most likely gay. The Danielbeast version of &quot;Uncle Dan&quot; confirms that Damien was openly flirting with Jonas. Jonas was obviously very uncomfortable with Damien's advances, which ended many fans' speculation about Jonas being gay.<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:DamienJacket.jpg|thumb|Do you want it Jonas?]]<br /> |[[Image:DamienOpener.jpg|thumb|Can I open a bottle for you?]]<br /> |[[Image:DamienChicken.jpg|thumb|Yum, this is some good meat!]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==[[Toby]]==<br /> Toby is Jonas's cousin, though they hadn't seen each other since &quot;the funeral&quot; (presumably of Jonas's parents). He is friends with Beth, the reporter. After the party, he begins dating [[Carla]].<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:0155Toby1.jpg|thumb|Talk to Jonas? That could be awkward...]]<br /> |[[Image:0154Toby2.jpg|thumb|Hey Jonas! So... your parents still dead?]]<br /> |[[Image:0154Toby3.jpg|thumb|Yeah, that ''was'' pretty awkward. I'm leaving now.]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Beth==<br /> Beth is a friend of Toby, who claims she is a reporter. Some believe she is lying and some have gone as far to claim that she may be OpAphid.<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:0154Beth1.jpg|thumb|Pleased to meet you Jonas, I'm Beth.]]<br /> |[[Image:0154Beth2.jpg|thumb|Choose your words carefully, Toby.]]<br /> |[[Image:0154Beth3.jpg|thumb|Is it just me, or are you distracted?]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==[[Carla]]==<br /> Carla appears first in [[Uncle Dan]], in which she hits on [[Jonas]], offering him one of her room keys and kissing him. In [[Speak to Me!]], it is revealed that she is dating [[Toby]], Jonas's cousin.<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:CarlaOhJonas.jpg|thumb|Joseph, Jonas, who cares? You're hot!]]<br /> |[[Image:CarlaNails.jpg|thumb|I'd better grab you before Damien does!]]<br /> |[[Image:CarlaJonasFace.jpg|thumb|Why, Jonas, are you blushing?]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Will==<br /> Will speaks briefly to Jonas while Carla is hitting on him, telling him that someone was looking for him. It is unclear whether someone really was looking for Jonas, or if Will was trying to help Jonas out of what was apparently an embarrassing situation.<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:PartyGuestsWill.jpg|thumb|Someone is looking for you!]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==[[Carl]]==<br /> Right before Jonas and Daniel leave, Carl tries to talk to Daniel about something, but Jonas and Alex push him away. The [[Uncle Dan (D-Bone Remix)]] video reveals that he was angry because Daniel interrupted an earlier conversation between him and his girlfriend [[#Sonia|Sonia]]. Carl and his girlfriend Sonia later appear in the video [[Sing With Me]] as apparently brainwashed members of the [[Hymn of One]], and they appear at the [[It's A Cult|Hymn of One seminar]]. Carl later appears with [[Bree]] in [[FOLLOW YOUR HAPPINESS]].<br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:PartyGuestsCarl.jpg|thumb|Let me know when you have a girlfriend so I can interrupt you.]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Finn (the musician)==<br /> Finn is apparently a musician from England. When Daniel tries to start a conversation, Finn shoos him away because Daniel is not familiar with his music. Some think he might be the infamous [[War Pylol]], and others think that he is the musician that [[Gemma]] [[Bad Decisions|went on a few dates with]].<br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:PartyGuestsFinn.jpg|thumb|You don't know my stuff...]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Claudia==<br /> Claudia speaks to Daniel briefly about the correct pronunciation of her name (CLOUD-ee-a) and mentions that she is from Greece. She has a very thick accent.<br /> <br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:0155ClaudiaCLOW.jpg|thumb|I am Clau...]]<br /> |[[Image:0155ClaudiaDEE.jpg|thumb|...di...]]<br /> |[[Image:0155ClaudiaAH.jpg|thumb|...a!]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==Seth==<br /> Very little is known about Seth beyond his name. The few times he is seen, he is talking to Will, so they may be friends.<br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:PartyGuestsSeth.jpg|thumb|Seth]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> ==[[Sonia]]==<br /> Sonia is Carl's girlfriend and a friend of Alex. She is apparently drunk while talking to Daniel. Daniel interrupts a conversation between her and Carl, which Carl gets very angry about, though Sonia insists it is fine. Sonia and her boyfriend Carl later appear in the video [[Sing With Me]] as apparently brainwashed members of the [[Hymn of One]], and at the [[It's A Cult|seminar]].<br /> {|<br /> |[[Image:Sonia.jpg|thumb|Alex has told me about you.]]<br /> |[[Image:Sonya2.jpg|thumb|Hi, I'm Sonia.]]<br /> |}<br /> <br /> [[Category:Seen characters]]</div>

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