LGPedia - User contributions [en]

Verdus Pharmaceuticals

2008-08-20T16:48:08Z

69.84.124.209: /* End */

{{Locations
| name = Verdus Pharmaceuticals
| image = VerdusLogo.jpg
| appearances=
*[[Evil Drug Company Exposed!]] - {{init|Jonas}}
*[[Germ Warfare Attack]] - {{init|Daniel}}
*[[Looking For A Date]] - {{init|Sarah}}
*[[Her Body, Her Blood]] - {{init|Dr. Hart}}
*[[Coming For You]] - {{init|Shadow}}
*[[Bree's Mom]] - {{init|Daniel}}
}}
'''Verdus Pharmaceuticals''' is a [[Connections|"mega-huge drug company" ]] that recently [[What's Going on?|announced]] a partnership for a new project called the [[Lullaby Project]] with the [[Wyman Foundation]] and the [[Hymn of One]].

==The Website==
"Verdus is a leading pharmaceutical company dedicated to making healthier people on a healthier planet. We began this simple mission back in 1984 when Thomas Verdus returned from a year long trek around the globe. It was as clear to Thomas then, as it is to our company today, the way to make healthier people is to find the many ways we can all live longer and stronger. How do we accomplish this task? From day one Verdus has been leading the way to this new frontier. Where is this new frontier? Look in the mirror. The new frontier begins with you. This new frontier can be found in each and every one of us. You are our partner along this path to living longer and stronger. Although our researchers are exploring and discovering unprecedented treatments and cures everyday, the path to living stronger and longer starts with each of us taking the first few steps. Good nutrition, robust exercise, and a clean environment will help all of us make those first few steps toward this new frontier. Verdus is very committed to making our medicines and supplements available to the entire world community. We do this by partnering with local clinics and community groups. And our commitment does not stop there. We feel it is our responsibility, as health care practioners, to educate, enrich, and enhance the lives of all the people we touch. Together, we can all make this planet a healthier and happier place." [http://www.verduspharma.com]

[[Image:Verdus Team.jpg|thumb|right|285px|[[Dr. Calvin Hart]]; second row, center]]
Under press:

"San Francisco, CA, October. 19, 2007 - Verdus today announced that their esteemed life extension researcher, Dr. Calvin Hart, will be hosting a panel this evening at the "This Life" medical conference being held in Pasadena. Dr. Hart is currently involved with Verdus' "Live Longer and Stronger" research group based in Los Angeles. A graduate of Columbia University and Cornell, Dr. Hart has been a part of the Verdus global clinical research team for the last twenty-two years. Dr. Hart's work encourages the use of nature based nutraceuticals, restorative hormones, and cutting edge pharmaceuticals created by Verdus." [http://www.verduspharma.com/press/]

==What Is It, Really?==
In [[Connections]], Jonas was able to conclude that Verdus Pharmaceuticals was merely another front for the Order, and would be working to help the [[Elder]]s obtain the [[the Ceremony|eternal life]] they so desperately desire.

In the Bloodlines finale we found out that Verdus Pharmaceuticals had a [[Hart Study|secret project]] that involved creating trait positive girls for the Order. They took two girls from Russia, one went to an American family, the other was a girl called [[Gina]], who they used as the control for this experiment

In [[Stock Options]], it was revealed that [[Elizabeth Avery]] is the Chairman of the Board of the company. It was also revealed that the board meets on the third Friday of every month.

==Location==
The Verdus Pharmaceuticals location was first seen in [[Evil Drug Company Exposed!]]. In [[Germ Warfare Attack]], Verdus Pharmaceuticals lab was revealed as a large office building.

==End==
In [[Bloodlines: Part 4]], Dr. Hart claims that Verdus will come to an end with the death of William Porter. However, this does not seem to be the case, as it was revealed in [[Stock Options]] that they still hold regular Board meetings.

==Press Release==

VERDUS PHARMACEUTICALS FILES LAWSUIT AGAINST FORMER DIVISION

For Immediate Release

August 6 2008. – Los Angeles, CA – Verdus Pharmaceuticals has filed suit against LifesBlood LLC, a former “experimental” sub-division of its research and development department. Verdus is charging LBL with copyright infringement and corporate espionage for a substantial, but undisclosed sum.

Verdus co-chair Ted McKinley alleges that Dr. Leonard J. Alderman, along with several other LBL employees, have stolen several unique patents to claim as their own, when in fact they were developed by the former parent company.

“It deeply saddens me a respected colleague such as Len would stoop so low as to make off with our combined efforts,” McKinley said. Verdus believes LifesBlood LLC has plans to market future “life enhancement” drugs and technologies for the sole purpose of obtaining a greater, more insulated profit.

Earlier today, McKinley stated: “What Alderman and his staff fail to realize is that what we do here at Verdus – what we’ve always done – has nothing to do with money. It is about enriching and expanding the lives of people across the world.”

Verdus’s suit demands records of all correspondence, email, or other communications between Alderman and his staff, and asks the court to order LBL to immediately process the documents for release.

CORPORATE INFORMATION

Verdus is a leading pharmaceutical company dedicated to making healthier people on a healthier planet. It was born in 1984 after philanthropist Thomas Verdus returned from a year long trek around the globe. After witnessing poor living standards in multiple third world countries, Verdus used his wealth to accrue a team of the nation’s foremost scientists and doctors. These talented individuals combined to realize Verdus’s noble intention of rectifying a world mired in various health crises. The company’s recent partnerships with smaller initiatives, such as the Lullaby Project and Wyman Foundation, have led to significant advances in the fields of pre-natal care and neurobiology. In 2007, Verdus’s “Live Longer and Stronger” research group, spearheaded by life extension researcher Dr. Calvin Hart, earned the company accolades from medical communities around the globe.

==Gallery==
<gallery>
Image:0369-VerdusPharmaceuticalsLab.jpg|Outside of the Building
Image:0362-VerdusInside.jpg|Inside, presumably an office
</gallery>

{{The Order}}

{{location index}}

[[Category:The Order]]
[[Category:Covers for the Order]]

The Samsaran Doctrine

2008-08-20T16:06:26Z

69.84.124.209: Redirecting to Willow Wood Auctioneers

#redirect [[Willow Wood Auctioneers]]

Talk:The Deacons (commenter)

2008-06-14T05:05:07Z

69.84.124.209: /* Reversion */

are "the deacons" aware that many people are watching? and if so many people are watching, why are the deacons so unashamed of publicly tormenting a tennage girl and her family? - platypusrex256

Perhaps because she is so important to their belief.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 03:07, 18 November 2006 (PST)

:"Since anyone can post under the name The Deacons..." Isn't this now out of date as a result of the server upgrade?--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]]

== screen caps? ==

Why are we posting screen caps instead of copying and pasting the text? --[[User:Brucker|Brucker]] 11:47, 22 November 2006 (CST)

:Valid point, however it might be a good thing to keep the screencaps. Older computers/browsers or computers who do not have the proper language installed may not be able to see the non-English text and will instead see a bunch of question marks. --[[User:TheNunOwnedGoat|Andy]] 11:57, 22 November 2006 (CST)

The reason that i have used screen captures is because text is just too easy to modify. Yes, I could modifty the screen capture but that would take more work and show up under forensic analysis. I also provide a link to the original source material so that allows users to copy the actual text if they want to do their own research. I believe this is the most accurate way to document that this was information taken directly from the chat and not some fake or modified text that was added to the LGpedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 12:45, 22 November 2006 (CST)

== From deleted Grigori page ==

According to Wikipedia, Grigori "are a group of fallen angels told of in Biblical apocrypha who mated with mortal women, giving rise to a race of giants known as the Nephilim. Also known as "Watchers" (from Greek egrḗgoroi), the Grigori appear in the booksEnoch and Jubilees". Book of Enoch is an Angelic teaching which also equals the storyline.

The Deacons (commenter) (aka Deacons (commenter)) have now made several references to Grigori. This seem to tied in with what Gemma described as a Watcher.

== From deleted Samyaza page ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyaza According to Wikipedia], "Samyaza (Aramaic: שמיחזה, Greek: Σεμιαζά) also Shemyazaz, Sêmîazâz, Semjâzâ, Shemyaza, Samyaza, Shemhazai, and Amezarak (Ethiopic corruption)) is a fallen angel of Christian tradition that ranked in the heavenly hierarchy as one of the Grigori (meaning "[[Watcher]]s" in Greek"). The term was used by [[The Deacons (commenter)]] after [[Fleeing The Watcher]].

==Regarding deletion==
The Deacons are fanfiction, but I find it irritating how much credit people give them on the comments boards. Some ''genuinely'' think they are canon. Their own breed of fanfiction is, well, original, and this poster is very prolific. However, the article is pathetically out-of-date since it tries to include all their comments. Perhaps rather than deleting it needs to be rewritten as a fanfiction piece, without giving such great emphasis on the speculation that they are canon. Now if Bree went and said "Well Deacons, I've been reading your posts and..." then of course we'd give them credit. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 19:08, 16 January 2007 (CST)

I think it should really be taken out of the religion section on the template. Stick it in fanfiction where it belongs...and axe umin thummin or whatever --[[User:Tannhaus|Tannhaus]] 19:49, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:LOL, how sly. It's on the template, but the template is not on the article. The Bree's religion template as a whole needs a cleanup. I'll just remove the commenters for now. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 19:56, 16 January 2007 (CST)

::Ok, took out commenters and Urim thing. Interesting, I hadn't even noticed Urim was there. Isn't that page a redirect to The Deacons (commenter) anyway? Oh well, gone now. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 19:58, 16 January 2007 (CST)

:::I don't agree with all these pictures uploaded to show those lame umim and thummim posts. I really don't even like calling main page comments from an anonymous person fanfic either. Back then anyone could post with any name, and they didn't have to do a thing to create that but type. Umim+Th don't belong anywhere, and I'd rather The Deacons (commenter) not be on here either. It's long past anyway, as The Deacons have gone into hiding now that they'd actually have to sign up to make their "fanfic" posts. -lord grey?

::::I agree on a deltion ---Iris2009

:I don't see any reason to delete the page entirely. But I agree we can dump the enormous screen captures of the quotes, and condense it to a reasonable length. I don't have a problem with pages on fan-fiction as long as they quickly and clearly identify themselves as fan-fiction.--[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 21:48, 16 January 2007 (CST)

::I might not get around to it right now, but I'll see what I can do to reword it, summarize it, and bring it up to date. People think they're gone bc the page is out-of-date, but they've been posting as "Deacons", even so recently as to scold Bree after the "Bree And I Hooked Up" video. I'm not a big fan of them either, but we should still cover them because many fans at the comment boards LOVE them and they cheer when a new post comes up and analyze it painstakingly. I swear I'm not making this up... see for yourself. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 23:44, 16 January 2007 (CST)

::: The Deacons are a fanfic if nothing else. they are fans playing along with the story, just by words on the comment page instead of a video. theyre differant, thats all. prehaps the page needs to be edited but the posts should stay here, i think they may be relevant in the future and alot of people find them interesting.[[User:Abba12|Abba12]] 05:19, 17 January 2007 (CST)

==Reconstruction==
I'm making an effort to see if I can turn this page into something that might be useful to fans. The way it is now, it's better off deleted than here, but I think that as fanfic, it might have a place.
In case anyone wants to help out, here is sort of the order in which I'd like to make improvements
#Look for their posts following Life's Not Fair and add links and (reasonably sized) screencaps to articles as well as links to the comments (so we don't have to go fishing for them again). We can decide later what screencaps to keep or toss.
#After each screencap, list the key terms from the post (e.g. Urim and Thummin, Grigori, etc.)
#Give a short definition of these terms and provide reference to wikipedia article or something of the sort. We will not expend too much space defining these terms or speculatively tying them in to justify them as canon.
#When we've gathered all the info, we'll write in additional commentary that might be useful.
#I'd like to have a section on "parodies" of the deacons on the comments board, because some of them are quite funny. But that's definitely not high priority.
Anyone who feels like pitching in, your help is welcome! If you have any questions, just let me know. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 03:18, 18 January 2007 (CST)

:Thanks for getting the links to the latest posts, JayHenry! Biggest waste of my life too, lol... I should have kept things simpler. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 03:49, 19 January 2007 (CST)

== Screencaps and links ==

Ok, now all the Deacons posts that we know of have a screencap and a link in this article. I briefly considered leaving the screencaps out, mainly to save myself the trouble, but when I clicked the links JayHenry provided, they no longer worked! I think this is a byproduct of the new comments board layout. Basically if you click the link to the comment you get directed to the appropriate page, but not to the comment itself. I don't know if/when this will be fixed, but I hope someone takes care of it soon. We have other articles on LGpedia that link to comments (such as those left by Danielbeast), and it would be a shame if those didn't work anymore either. In the meantime... if anyone doesn't like the screencaps... well that's why they're there. And because doing them as text would have been a pain, what with the special characters and stuff. [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]] 14:08, 21 January 2007 (CST)

==Reversion==
This page is an important part of comments board history and should stay pretty much as it stands. It is actually a condensed version of many pages that once existed and the links were accumulated here. It is therefore very well researched and a good representation of what happened. The Deacons were very important because they played a vital role in the development of the comment board community and were responsible for a large amount of the social bonding that the Creators have openly talked about being important for Lonelygirl15.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 07:03, 9 June 2008 (CDT)
:MM, I see the reasoning behind the revert, but if you're going to do it, could you go through everything a second time? All of the links to the comment boards (at least when I checked before) no longer work, so those should probably be removed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:55, 10 June 2008 (CDT)
::I'll go through it now so it'll be mostly done. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:00, 10 June 2008 (CDT)
::::The links probably went bad when LG15 decided to change their url structure. I though the bot had corrected all of that stuff, but perhaps not. This page is primarily of historical significance and hence it has not had a lot of attention recently.--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 00:05, 14 June 2008 (CDT)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-05-13T22:22:28Z

69.84.124.209: /* Dreams from the Breeniverse */

:'''''Phase 2 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is currently in progress. Please do <u>not</u> initiate any further discussion - any late concerns with the current Tier listing can be addressed in later requests for re-evaluation.''' Click [[#Schedule|here]] for further information on the process.''

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
*[[The 707 clique]]
*[[Aaronbeast]]
*[[Acrowleyorder]]
*[[ApotheosisAZ]]
*[[Breeiswaiting]]
*[[Brucker]]
*[[Bubbleteagirl]]
*[[Cassie UGC]]
**[[Cassieiswatching]]
**[[itscassie]]
**[[breeiswaiting]]
**[[cassieresurrection]]
**[[frankiswaking]]
**[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]
*[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]
*[[Deemontreal]]
*[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]
*[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]
*[[The Flock]]
*[[Fourthface]]
*[[GuillotineCalamity]]
*[[HOOBS]]
*[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]
*[[Immant]]
*[[Iris2009]]
*[[Iris network|The Iris Network]]
*[[Itscassie]]
*[[Kelseygirl15]]
*[[TheLadyLazarus]]
*[[Lonelydude15]]
*[[lonelygirl362436]]
*[[LonelyJew15]]
*[[LonesomeOctober]]
*[[LordGreystoke422]]
*[[Maccaboy17]]
*[[Maddison Atkins]]
*[[Marbella]]
*[[Masonishappy]]
*[[MessyNessy89]]
*[[Mission Anchor Cove]]
*[[MsBlackBetty]]
*[[N3ural N3t]]
*[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]
*[[OpAphid]]
*[[OpScorn]]
*[[Paulmark18]]
*[[ProjectStatic]]
*[[Redearth88]]
*[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]
*[[Sarahsnotebook]]
*[[StormFaction]]
*[[Scdgoofy]]
*[[Tannhaus]]
*[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]
*[[Xeniph]]

==Suggested Tiers==
:''Please see [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List]]. Do not edit that page, though.''

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Schedule==
Almost exactly three months after this project has come to life, there now seems to be a large consent on the initial Tier listing; while there are still minor details to wait for until we can finalize the Tier 3/4 listing, Tiers 1 and 2 are finalized, and, as such, the Phases only related to these Tiers can begin.

'''As of Tuesday, April 1st, 2008, 03:26 GMT, Phase {{color|red|2}} of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is running.''' See below for details.

*The Revamp will proceed as follows
**{{color|green|'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.}}
**{{color|red|'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.}}
**'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
**'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.
**'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.
**'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]].

===Page-list===
*Central portal
*List of videos
*Templates:
**Bottom index
**Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
*Character pages
*Actor pages
*Categories to group it all together

==Flock Regulations==
The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page.<br>
Reasons for revocation can be:
*Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
*Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
*The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
*New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
*The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
*The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
*Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

''NOTE: An extension will be granted for characters who have suddenly become canon. Obviously updating under these circumstances will take longer than normal.''

Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.

==Discussion==
====The Coalition====
They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
:I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:No, in my opinion, for the following reasons:
:#HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
:#Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
:#And this is the most important one, in my opinion: ''Everyone'' can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.
:Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page ''we'' will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.
:(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)
:(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)
::On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on [[The Coalition]] page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.
:::God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

::::I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition. But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.
:::::(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements? Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure. You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence. How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Anyone?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.
:::I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::There are 4 series so they each should have a page. The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series. As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory. The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::"The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them. I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.
:::::::# The Coalition is set up similar to RE88. RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in. The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in.
:::::::# The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.
:::::::# They have a forum presence.
:::::::# FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.
:::::::# They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation) It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.
:::::::# It features immersive interaction with members of the community.
:::::::# There are a high number of characters including live action characters.
:::::::# Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.

:::::::It meets just about every criteria set forth. My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump? But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page. If you can, more power to you. I look forward to the end result.

:::::::Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::: Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured. I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure. There are always elements that are "up in the air" but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?
:::::::Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages ''because'' The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.
:::::::The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and "hits" on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, ''The Flock'' all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth ''nothing'' if no one comes to eat.
:::::::You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, ''nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia''. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?
:::::::I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.
:::::::The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?
:::::::Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock ''alone'' has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, ''nobody cares''.
:::::::Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it ''would'' place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there ''is'' a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages ''at all''. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?
----
:::::::In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of "identity crisis" problem - are these series all together one complex "The Coalition", or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will-O-Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate "List of Facility J links" or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.

:::::::So, especially ''because'' your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:
:::::::#Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.
:::::::#Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?
:::::::#Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)
:::::::#Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we ''will'' need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.

:::::::Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of "Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention." does not need 200 pages.
:::::::Just one.
:::::::If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::<small>Not proofread.</small>

:::::::::<li>At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.
:::::::::<li>There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.
:::::::::<li>There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.
:::::::::<li>You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list.
:::::::::<li>I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.
::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.}}
::::::::::Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, "Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?" They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.
::::::::::The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.}}
::::::::::Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will ''all'' have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point ''for'' bumping up.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.}}
::::::::::Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.}}
::::::::::As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...''however'' - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, ''and'' there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.
::::::::::If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, ''and'' we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.
::::::::::However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.
::::::::::The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an "Other series within the Coalition universe" section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.

::::::::::Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean "so notable it needs multiple pages". All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page." - so even ''if'' somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?
::::::::::I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a "whole", and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.
:::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::I do not think we are talking about 200 pages. We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition. Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit. For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now. The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia. The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::::Immo said "The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos." - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.
::::::::::::As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.}}
::::::::::::I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: ''What historicaly record?'' Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically ''nothing''. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only ''16'' are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are [[Everything You Need To Play Facility J]], last updated on 30 October 2007, [[Mysterious Young Lady]], [[WalterDW]] and [[TravelerJ19]], all of whose ''content'' was last updated '''''11 months ago''''' (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).
::::::::::::Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. ''That'' is the "historical record" we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few "almost" there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for ''almost a year'' is the greatest argument ''for'' collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.}}
::::::::::::Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're ''actually'' talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of "modelmotion no like teh revamp", please open a "Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp" section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we ''will not'' be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We '''will not''' have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by ''discussion'' and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you ''admittedly ignored'', that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our ''opinion'' and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's "THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!" posts and not helping this discussion.
----
::Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: ''Been said.'' Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.
::Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::: Let's start the fuckin' revamp already! This is insane. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Milo...[[User talk:Zoey|click here]], try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now. Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages. Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages so it would essentially become a portal for the "coalition territory". This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery. It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your "reasonable approach" - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it "revamp" because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these "historic records" you keep talking about - the only thing "historic" about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.
:::::::::As for "putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery" - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.
:::::::::Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're ''actually'' interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.

:::::::::Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said "fuck it" and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.
:::::::::You want ''us'' to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, ''why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?''
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::::To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history. Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your "history" shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.
::::::::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::<small>Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.</small>

:::::::::I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Let us face reality here. Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site. It is going to take time to rebuild. That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:
#If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?
#The portal quite clearly says "The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series" - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)

::That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.
::Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like [[Cassieresurrection]] all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.
::I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to ''The Coalition'', the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.
::::It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.
::::The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:24 March 21 (EST)
:::::As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia. In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem. Perhaps we could consider it as "Tier 5 Lite" where fans of the series would have an "option" to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration. I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level. Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series. Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the "ability" to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said "'''I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.'''" I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when ''some'' people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole. From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4. I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: ''Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some '''subjective''' or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)'' If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.

:::::::From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness. So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of "the Coaltion," and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series. One word, ''"Wha?"'') Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow '''four''' basic pages -- one for each series. This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and '''the info that they are related to the other three series''' under a greater "Coalition" universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the "Red Territory" as well). It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering ''have said multiple times'' that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point. If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).

:::::::If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over. If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I ''also'' see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to "the Coalition" as a whole. For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.

:::::::'''Oh, side note:''' I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier. If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that ''all'' TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense. But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors). Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to ''another'' lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).
::::::::Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant. It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the "homepage." Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia? It has been a very difficult year for "community videos" but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn. I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages. Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together. The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion. Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe. The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
:Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine. I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.

:Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).
:'''virginian:''' "I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far." - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would ''still'' be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 "real" views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.
:Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?
:'''model:''' "Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia." - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.
:Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:
:[[Image:Coalition system.png|800px|none|thumb|Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.]]
:Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify ''why'' that should be the case with hard facts.
:Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post. There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months. Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the "community videos" fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.
::::As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.
::::I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:25, 22 March (EST)

:::::Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.
:::::"The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole." - thus, ''by your very own definition'', the 4 subparts of The Coalition are ''not'' independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore ''not'' eligible for independent listings as series.

:::::The description you give is valid for ''any'' vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.
:::::(And before you contest with "multiple characters" - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)

:::::Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)

:::::@model: {{quote|up there|The Coalition<br><br>They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)}}
:::::Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::It is not a like to tell the truth. All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened. If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so. Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how ''you'' ask for "something productive", but meh, whatever.
:::::::::Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier ''4''. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.
:::::::::So, should virginian ''not'' insist to object, and should third parties ''not'' override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --[[User:FH14]] 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)
::I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence. I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic. Only then can we have a viable discussion. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't "get it". Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.
::::::Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.
::::::Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?
::::::''If'' the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:
::::::#They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.
::::::#The viewers and producers ''just don't care'' for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are? If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question. The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on. No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure. That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning . The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.
:::::::::::#It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about ''no one else coming, either''. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the ''official blog'' of LG15 ''and'' LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, ''still'' no one else edited it. It very much looks like ''nobody cares''.
:::::::::::#We will not "simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on", because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?
:::::::::::#It is absolutely and 100% ''insane'' to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state "we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!", please do so - it'd help me a lot.)
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on. Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site. It is clear from their video series. And they even have community video spin offs from within their series. I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5. So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck. So Tier 5 it is.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::If it is "clear" from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?
:::::::Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?

:::::::I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is ''not'' independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.

:::::::So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing ''you'' posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that ''your personal opinion'' is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.
:::::::It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was ''your'' decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous "Are you blind?" posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.
:::::::iow, the discussion would be over.
:::::::If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual "you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind" tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely ''not'' "obvious", and you don't have ''any'' facts to support your opinion.
----
:::::::To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.
:::::::The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is.
:::::::::It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 21:51, 23 March (EST)
::::::::::Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak. I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions. I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the "right" one. You just keep insisting it's "obvious", that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.
:::::::::::We got your opinion. Now bring ''facts''.
:::::::::::As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, ''and'' had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.
:::::::::::Now add one and one together.

:::::::::::@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.
:::::::::::So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.
:::::::::::And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition''', with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition characters''', again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition videos''', listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition interaction''' - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is ''not'' going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my "Tier 5 Lite" suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.
:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.
:::I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.
:::I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments ''I'' made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.
:::It's not gonna work.
:::Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am ''not'' the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.
:::Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is "obvious" and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.
:::This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.
:::With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.
:::''Everybody is happy. Except for you.''
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Actually to the contrary. As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is "Tier 5 lite" just like I suggested.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::If this is the "Tier 5 lite" you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as "project leader" here. I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground. You just fail to read what is written.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing ''"[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution."'' from ''"It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."'' and ''"Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening."'' from ''"Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page."''
:::The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted "Tier 5 lite", with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a "Tier 3 Deluxe", where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.
:::And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:
::::''Ren, your persistent insults'' --> unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.
::::''are just incompatible with your role as'' --> unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.
::::''"project leader" here.'' --> attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.
::::''I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.'' --> non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."; your new statement does ''not'' contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, ''different'' fact: That your idea of "Tier 5 lite" admittedly was ''not'' equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just "a lot of common ground". It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of "common ground", but as per your own statement, right there, it was ''not'' "just like [you] suggested".

:::Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in "Tier 5 lite" was long gone anyway:
:::*''Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.''
:::*''The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.''
:::*''It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.''

:::Tier 4 is ''not'' equal to "Tier 5 lite". Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.
:::The truth is, the "magic moment" was one day ''before'' you suggested "Tier 5 lite" - when Immo's suggestion of ''"You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]"'' was answered, quite clearly, by me with ''"As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance."''
:::As of that point, ''four days ago'', it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.
:::I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done ''nothing'' to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.
:::''You'' and ''you alone'' are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a "fine solution", FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we ''did'' have a factual discussion, I ''did'' accept the facts and Immo ''did'' convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his "Tier 5! Tier 5!" cries with condescendence and insults is ''you''.
:::''You'' are the one who dragged out this discussion, and ''you'' are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::What was your point?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
::::::::Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy? It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.--[[User:------|------]] 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::[Head explodes] ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry] [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::I like applesauce.--[[User:------|------]] 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::::If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself. Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Agreed. Also, seeing as this discussion is quite lengthy, it might be a good idea if it was moved to the archive --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:07 24 March 2008 (EST)

:::::::Exactly that, model.
::::::::::::Milo, I liked your previous posts, but this one went way, way too far. Do ''not'' pose as another user again. Period. It may be obvious to you, but it's not to everyone else. Even ''I'' went "wtf?! I didn't post that!!". It is important that users can trust a comment belongs to the person it was signed as, and a tiny little 4:36 is not hint enough, especially given that no one usually reads the timestamp.
::::::::::::Don't do that again. Ever.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::::Milo, I gotta side with Renegade on this one. I thought it was funny on [[Talk:437]], but that discussion wasn't as heated as this one and you made it much more obvious there. Also, here you impersonated people currently taking part in the discussion, which would only have the effect of confusing those trying to follow it. I apologize for encouraging you on the 437 talk page as impersonating other people (in any form) really is unacceptable. I let it slide because I thought it was funny, but now it's clear that it has the potential to cause major problems, so please, and this applies to everyone, '''never impersonate anyone else anywhere on the pedia'''. Anyone who does this will be warned and if they continue they may have their account blocked. Again, I apologize for encouraging it, but Ren is absolutely right, so let's just not do it.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 15:03, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::OK, I agree I crossed the line that time. I am sorry and promise not to do that again. The debate had gotten so far out of hand that I was driven temporarily insane. There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on, not that my attempt at humor helped at all. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 21:35, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I got the PM I was waiting for, but it was not as clear as I hoped. Please stand by while this is sorted out.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:41, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

====Dreams from the Breeniverse====
Whether it is labeled 'tier 2' or 'tier 3' the page for this particular series should include a concise list of links to the videos, possibly with a short description and thumbnail for each. The videos are fairly independent creations usually focusing on one character each, not so much a single narrative, so a lumped summary will not really cover them very well. Also, linking just to the account the videos are provided on (jerrypwjr on YouTube) does not really work because they are mixed in with other videos by the same creator on that account. Note: there is a playlist available on that account for the Dreams series which could be linked to, but a listing on the page would make it easier to find an individual video. The lgpedia page should be as useful as possible. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:08, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

:Playlist, sure. (This can, and most likely will, be put under the External Links section.) Listing, maybe (I'm generally against any straight-out listing of videos, though.) As for pictures...Why? The dreams are chaotic, and it's not like one picture is going to give you an idea of what a particular video was about. Descriptions I'm against solely because the idea here is to cut down on content. Couldn't you give descriptions of the videos without just flat-out giving things the format of Here's What Happens in Video 1:, etc. etc.?
:BTW, Q, no one's checking this page anymore. The revamp is already in progress, and as you can see, the Dreams page needs work. It would be better to just go to it rather than saying what other people should do, you know? Thanks, though! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:54, 11 May 2008 (CDT)

::"''It would be better to just go to it rather than saying what other people should do, you know?''" ... Really? This whole revamp discourages contribution to the LGPedia by a larger group. You wiped out the attractive custom page Luminous had in place for the series, and now I should go add something new, only to have it deleted or piecemeal edited by your arbitrary standards?
::"''The idea here is to cut down on content.''" If anything, the idea should be to organize content and make it more accessible or possibly easier to maintain. But I personally think it is misguided to aim to "cut down on content" or to standardize everything. Actually, it's boring.
::The way this revamp is organized is misguided in my view. A much simpler solution would have been to list all the series, and then add a single summary page (akin to the video pages on the LGPedia) for every series, no matter how big or how small, with a single master "UGC Index" listing page that points to these individual summary pages.
::An indication of associated series (i.e. theCoalition) could be given in the "UGC Index." Then, for a given series, a list of links could be provided from the single summary page to all related pages, with little or no tight control over what those might be - let them be unique and a little chaotic and fun and as informative as possible. Add some organizing pages, and then let people work on revamping/improving the content pages on a series by series basis, that's sensible, but quit trying to control every little thing. It's ruining the spirit of the LGPedia and discourages community involvement. Fight the Order. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 13:30, 13 May 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::"Descriptions I'm against solely because the idea here is to cut down on content." ~ I think that statement requires an explanation. Exactly why is "content" the enemy? Has anyone actually defined the parameters needed to allow the LGPedia admins the ability to better manage the community videos area? Surely content is not the enemy here. I think individuality is important to any series so the goal should be to balance creative needs against administrative needs.--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 17:22, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

==See also==
*Related discussions:
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]

{{UGCpages}}

User:Modelmotion/exp/Content

2008-04-22T09:45:50Z

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<h3 style="background-color: #9453A4; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; font-size:120%; border-bottom: 1px solid #FFFFFF; color:#fff;">{{link|link=KateModern|text=KateModern Universe|color=#FFFFFF}}</h3>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;">
Contains everything that is considered "real" within Kate's universe.
; [[KateModern characters|Characters]] : Read about the people who make up Kate's world.
; [[KateModern locations|Locations]] : See all those places our favorite characters have been.
; [[KateModern The Story So Far...|The Story So Far...]] : Find out on how the story is unfolding in London.
; [[Theories_About_Characters#KateModern|Theories and Speculation]] : Learn about the sinister plots that may be taking place on KateModern.
; [[KateModern notable details|Notable Details]] : Check out the little important details you may have otherwise missed in the videos.
; [[KateModern relationships|Relationships]] : Read about the relationships in Kate's world.
; [[KateModern puzzles|Puzzles]] : Read about the puzzles that have occured on the KateModern show.
; {{bebo-acct|katemodern|KateModern on Bebo}} : View KateModern on Bebo.
</div>
</div>

<div style="background-color: #BF8FCD; margin-bottom: 1.5em;">
<h3 style="background-color: #9453A4; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; font-size:120%; border-bottom: 1px solid #FFFFFF; color:#fff;">{{link|link=KateModern behind the scenes|text=Behind The Scenes|color=#FFFFFF}}</h3>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;">
The cast, crew, and more news from kateworld.
; [[Bebo]] : Learn about the social networking site that KateModern is hosted on.
; [[KateModern product placement|Product Placement]] : Learn about the sponsors whose products are featured in KateModern videos.
; [[KateModern Soundtrack]] : Learn about the music featured in the KateModern videos.
</div>
</div>

<div style="background-color: #BF8FCD; margin-bottom: 1.5em;">
<h3 style="background-color: #9453A4; margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; font-size:120%; border-bottom: 1px solid #FFFFFF; color:#fff;">Other Series & Content</h3>
<div style="margin: 0px; padding: 0.3em 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em;">
;[[Main Page]]
;[[Portal:Lonelygirl15]]
;[[LG15 Spin-offs|Unofficial Spinoffs]]
;[[List of notable non-series UGC|Fan Videos]]
</div>
</div>

User:Modelmotion/exp/content

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{|style="background-color: transparent;" align="right"
|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
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|image = S2 Icon - Charlie.jpg
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|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
|char = Gavin
|image = S2 Icon - Gavin.jpg
}}
|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
|char = Julia
|image = S2 Icon - Julia.jpg
}}
|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
|char = Steve
|image = S2 Icon - Steve.jpg
}}
|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
|char = Lee
|image = S2 Icon - Lee.jpg
}}
|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
|char = Lauren
|image = S2 Icon - Lauren.jpg
}}
|{{User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row/CharBox
|char = Kate
|image = S2 Icon - Kate.jpg
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|}<includeonly></div></includeonly>

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User:Modelmotion/exp

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Creature, Inc

2008-04-22T04:41:38Z

69.84.124.209: /* Summary */

{{Show
|name = Creature, Inc,
|image = CreatureInc.jpg

|bgcolor =
|headercolor = #FF6600
|headerfont = #fff
|fontcolor =
|bordercolor = #FF6600
}}
Creature, INC is an Alternate Reality Interactive [[Web Series]] that centers around a world where our government has been essentially 'sold' to the most powerful and corrupt corporations of our time. Economic conditions resulted in a cataclysmic downward spiral of America to the point where corporate America was able to seize control of a government that had decayed close to the point of bankruptcy. Our civil rights are being slowly removed from us, our laws have become flexible to the will of those in power, and corporate sponsored mind control is on the verge of being instituted forcefully.

Creature, INC takes place within [[The Coalition]] extended region of the [[Red Territory]]. Viewers and players of the series are encouraged to create characters of their own, and to participate in the series itself. Not only does their help support the Alternate Reality aspect of this series, it may in fact be crucial to the survival of the world itself.

The hour of revolution is at hand.

Which side will you choose?

==Summary==
The first video in the web series is '''"War Cry"''' which comes from Infrastruck. The video contains a rather cryptic poem with the general theme "''I keep dreaming about my past''". In this video we also see the introduction of the first ARG clue.

In "'''Eve of Destruction"''' Infrastruck talks about having memories that are not his own. His old friend genocideinmymind asked for his help and since then his brain has been "fryi'''ng". One of his friends in Kentucky, Jason, has committed suicide but Infrastruck thinks he killed him and burried him in the woods. Infrastruck decides to fly back for the funeral and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhume exhume] the grave.

'''In "Misfortunato"''' we see Infrastruck covered in mud. He appears to have returned from digging in the woods but has no recollection of the events that passed. He does however have a "disk" which contained video that Jason left for him.

'''"Jasons Suicide Note"''' contains video of the suicide note that was found in the suicide video by community members Heyaja, [[Jenni Powell]], and CherShayToute.

'''"Lucidity Toxicity"''' is the first video in the web series from the [[Greg Gallows]] YouTube account. Greg appears to be a "replicate" of the Infrastruck, or perhaps just suffering from a''' mental condition. Greg has been talking to [[FacilityJ]] members who tell him that he has been asleep and is just now wakening.

'''"A Specter is Haunting"''' GenoicideInMyMind introduces herself and shows sympathy towards Infra's mental problems as of late.

'''"Final Warning"''' is the first video from the Creature, Inc [[YouTube]] account. The video carried the description "Wars teach us not to love our enemies, but to hate our allies" and appears to contain surveillance video of Infrastruck. This suggests that Creature, Inc is monitoring Infrastruck's behavior for some reason.

'''"My Grief Observed"''' JennersRevenge, a close ally from Infra's past, makes her first appearance, warning Creature INC that she will pay back any harm that they cause to Infra.

'''"Spherical Harmonics"''' Greg acknowledges that he has seen Creature INC's video but cannot find the cameras in his home. He responds to the Facility J character Jay Nineteen, JennersRevenge, and GenocideInMyMind. He falls unconscious on his floor and awakes to see his former friend Jason's roomate, Kim, asking if he is ok.

'''"We Are Watching"''' WatchingOverCInc lets Greg know that the choice of whom to trust is still his.

'''"Duality"''' JennersRevenge talks about her life outside of "zombieville".

'''"I Made a Big Mistake"''' [[Greg Gallows]] is with Kim who found him knocked out. He recaps recent events to Kim, and she demands to see the videos that have brainwashed Greg and Jason. After watching the videos she goes insane, attacks Greg, and flees her house.

'''"Suggestions for Survival"''' ManufacturedDestiny warns Greg to put his dreams behind him and "Leave them to us."

'''"Gregory's Mess"''' CreatureINC shows security camera footage of Kim killing one of his agents as he attempts to apprehend her. James Creature states in the video that Kim stole the agents PDA and that they will track her by that and it is only a matter of time.

'''"When jokes go to far"''' ManufacturedDestiny suggests that Greg is merely delusional and warns others not to be sucked in.

'''"Please Help"''' Greg shows a video Kim sent to him, with a puzzle leading to her location.

'''"Fair Warnings"''' Watching over CInc send an update to C.INC warning him that there may be events he did not forsee.

'''"Infrastruck?"''' Tinny09 introduces his character into the story and requests a mission to assist and or monitor Infrastruck.

'''"Rescuing Kim"''' Greg rescues Kim thanks to the hard work of all the puzzle crackers.

'''"Awakened Memories?"''' Nix introduces himself and says that he will protect Greg and Kim until the end.

'''"Trust"''' ManufacturedDestiny tells us all that he used to have nightmares and memory problems similar to Gregs, but that Creature INC took those problems away from him. He suggests that Greg let Creature INC do the same for him.

'''"Instincts Maternal"''' JennersRevenge ponders on children, her desire to have them, and what she saw hiding behind Infra's eyes.

'''"Kim's First Vlog"''' Kim introduces herself to the online community.

'''"Observations"''' Creature INC tests out their new cameras that have been installed in Kim's home.

'''"After Dark"''' Nix explains that he has been having roccuring nightmares about a girl who he cannot save as well as about Kim and Greg.

'''"Survivalism"''' Greg Destroys I his hard drive that contains a copy of the mind altering videos, leaving only 4 copies in known existance.

'''"A Titanic Tank Shots"''' Misteeq introduces herself as a friend of Greg's and asks Jenni to come visit her so that she can help her get over her emotional issues.

'''"Metamorphasis"''' Jenners says that she is no longer helping Infra, and that she wants to go after the larger forces behind everything.

'''"Destruction"''' Greg destroys the copy of the mind controlling videos that is in his posession, leaving only 3 copies in known existence.

'''"Leaving On a Jet Plane"''' Jenners states that she is going to visit Misteeq.

'''"Welcome To My World"''' James shows us a bit of his world, and also a letter he has drafted to Carmine Terrine.

'''"WTF?!?!?"''' Ziola explains that her house was broken into and a video from The Janitor Of Oxford was stolen.

'''"The Fourth Circle"''' James releases the video that was stolen from Ziola.

'''"Off To Grandmas House"''' Misteeq posts a video stating that Jenni is on her way and she is awaiting further instructions about what to do when she arrives.

'''"Soully Becoming One"''' Nix explains that he has seen the bigger players emerge and hold back the information that they have about what is goin on, and he states that he is not afraid to jump into the unknown.

'''"Home"''' Ziola says she will take vengance on James for breaking into her home.

'''"New Job"''' Jessica, James's assistant, states that she has a new job and that she loves it. She also says that she believes her boss may be able to help her sister with her ailment.

'''"An Offering"''' James gives Misteeq the go ahead to tell the players that they have 48 hours to turn Kim and Greg in, or Jenni will die. He also re-extends his job offer to Ziola.

'''"Something You Want"''' Misteeq shows a video of herself torturing Jenni, and informs the players that they have to decide between turning in greg and Kim or letting Jenni die.

'''"In a word ..."''' Ziola rejects James's job offer again, stating thatshe has found a better one.

'''"Always a Third"''' Nix confronts the players about their decisions as of late.

'''"Praying For Death"''' Greg shows the withdrawal he is going through from the videos, and begs for help in figuring out what to do about Jenners kidnapping.

'''"You Reached a Decision"''' Because of the players decision not to turn Greg and Kim in, Misteeq posts a video of her killing Jenners.

'''"The Arrival"''' Jessica states that her sister has started treatment with James Creature.

On April 21, 2008 it was reported that Creature, Inc has been working with Homeland Security in the USA to install certain "black box technology" in Internet access points.[http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2008/04/manhattan-project.html]

==Character Descriptions==
''This section is still in the development phase.''
----
*Infrastruck: the central character in the show.
*Greg: has the same physical characteristics to Infrastuck, but different memories.
*James Creature : CEO of Creature INC.
*Genocide: a friend of Infrastruck.
*Jason (deceased): A friend of Greg and Kim's who committed suicide because of mind control.
*Kim: Jason's former roomate
*Jenners: A former ally of Greg's
*WatchingOverCINC: Unknown person who monitors Greg and C.INC
*ManufacturedDestiny: Unknown person who communicates to Greg
*Nix: Protector of Kim and Greg
*Tinny09: An agent who requests a mission to aide or monitor Greg
*MsMisteeq: James's assassin who kills Jenners
*TheJanitorOfOXford: A character from the Worldfiles series
*Ziola: A person who is being educated on hell by TheJanitorOfOxford
*JessicaMorning: The loyal assistant of James Creature.

==Character accounts==
*{{youtube-user|creatureinc}}
*{{youtube-user|greggallows}}
*{{youtube-user|infrastruck}}
*{{youtube-user|genocideinmymind}}
*{{youtube-user|jennersrevenge}}
*{{youtube-user|WatchingOverCInc}}
*{{youtube-user|ManufacturedDestiny}}
*{{youtube-user|Nixmix9}}
*{{youtube-user|MsMisteeq}}

==Playlist==
*[http://youtube.com/view_play_list?p=59D03099E14F70D3 Creature, Inc]

==In Character Response Videos==
*filiascientis: {{youtube|fZ-FrmNkmQ8|dream a little dream of me}} (filiascientis is a character account for Sandi in the [[FacilityJ]] component series of the [[The Coalition]].
*alcon835: {{youtube|p9_kJ603i_A|Re: I Dream Of Demons}}
*tinny09: {{youtube|PsF1ZMq6E80|Infrastruck?}}
*CarmineTerrine: {{youtube|F91TnDFLKEo|Lesson 1: Getting Screwed}} Carmine welcomes James, as to what he is welcoming him into is unknown.

==Creature, Inc Logo and Endtag==
The creation and design of the logo for the Creature, Inc is credited to community member Saffryn.

The creation and design of the end tag for the Creature, Inc videos is credited to community member MasonIsHappy.

==External Links==
*[http://infrastruck.blogspot.com Infrastruck blog]
*[http://www.thecoalition.tv The Coalition web site]
*[http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=161&sid=cefe2822f4d5ad6572724bb2063a7284 Discussion on LG15.com]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborative_fiction Collaborative fiction on Wikipedia]
*[http://lg15today.blogspot.com/2008/03/dynamic-story-telling.html Dynamic Story Telling]
*[http://inside.lg15.com/2008/03/28/creature-inc Creature, Inc article on insideLG15]
*[http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25030, Creature INC on Unfiction]

[[Category:User Generated Content]]
[[Category:Red Territory]]

James R. Sterling

2008-04-19T21:48:08Z

69.84.124.209: New page: Senior Vice President, Business Affairs and Operations James R. Sterling joined EQAL in 2008 as its Senior Vice President, Business Affairs and Operations. Prior to joining the compan...

Senior Vice President, Business Affairs and Operations

James R. Sterling joined [[EQAL]] in 2008 as its Senior Vice President, Business Affairs and Operations. Prior to joining the company, James spent over three years at Mark Burnett Productions in Business and Legal Affairs, where he oversaw all business and legal related matters for The Apprentice (NBC), Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader? (FOX), The Contender (ESPN), On The Lot (FOX), Amnesia (NBC), RockStar (CBS), Gold Rush (AOL), Flushed Away: Underground Adventure (AOL), and Wedding Day (pilot) (TNT). James negotiated and closed over thirty brand integration deals for “The Apprentice,” working with companies such as Toyota, Kodak, Dial, Norwegian Cruise Lines, and XM Radio. James regularly negotiated above the line and talent agreements, domestic distribution agreements, indemnity agreements, and casting documents. In addition, James managed day-to-day production and clearance matters, worked with and guided outside counsel on all intellectual property, employment, and litigation matters, and regularly provided counsel on corporate related matters.

Prior to joining Mark Burnett Productions, James spent five years as a litigator at Lavely and Singer, P.C. where he handled all aspects of entertainment and intellectual property law. Practice areas included contracts, talent agency regulation, rights of privacy and publicity, free speech, defamation and employment law.

James received a B.A. in History and Public Policy from the University of California, Los Angeles and a J.D. from the University of Southern California.

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp

2008-03-17T19:29:03Z

69.84.124.209:

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.

==Glossary==
{|width="50%"
!style="width: 6em;" valign="top"|Tier 1
|Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 2
|Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 3
|Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 4
|Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
|-
!valign="top"|Tier 5
|Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.
|}

==Criteria==
The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:
*Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
*Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
*How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
*How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
*How many episodes does the series have?
*How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
*How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
*''[Please expand this list]''

==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
*[[The 707 clique]]
*[[Aaronbeast]]
*[[Acrowleyorder]]
*[[ApotheosisAZ]]
*[[Breeiswaiting]]
*[[Brucker]]
*[[Bubbleteagirl]]
*[[Cassieiswatching]]
*[[Cassieresurrection]]
*[[Cassie UGC]]
**[[Cassieiswatching]]
**[[itscassie]]
**[[breeiswaiting]]
**[[cassieresurrection]]
**[[frankiswaking]]
**[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]
*[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]
*[[Deemontreal]]
*[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]
*[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]
*[[The Flock]]
*[[Fourthface]]
*[[GuillotineCalamity]]
*[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]
*[[Immant]]
*[[Iris2009]]
*[[Iris network|The Iris Network]]
*[[Itscassie]]
*[[Kelseygirl15]]
*[[TheLadyLazarus]]
*[[Lonelydude15]]
*[[lonelygirl362436]]
*[[LonelyJew15]]
*[[LonesomeOctober]]
*[[LordGreystoke422]]
*[[Maccaboy17]]
*[[Maddison Atkins]]
*[[Marbella]]
*[[Masonishappy]]
*[[MessyNessy89]]
*[[Mission Anchor Cove]]
*[[MsBlackBetty]]
*[[N3ural N3t]]
*[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]
*[[OpAphid]]
*[[OpScorn]]
*[[Paulmark18]]
*[[ProjectStatic]]
*[[Redearth88]]
*[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]
*[[Sarahsnotebook]]
*[[StormFaction]]
*[[Scdgoofy]]
*[[TWJaniak]]
*[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]
*[[Xeniph]]

==Suggested Tiers==
===Tier 1===
[[The 707 clique]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris network|The Iris Network]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]

===Tier 2===
[[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[Iris2009]], [[masonishappy]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

===Tier 3===
[[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]], [[The Flock]]

===Tier 4===
[[lonelygirl362436]], [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]

===Tier 5===
[[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]

==Mission==
We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

==Free for all comment space==
Add your comments and opinions below this line.

===Starting Fresh, Perhaps===
So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)

Anywho, the listings:

'''Tier 1:''' [[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]

'''Tier 2:''' [[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[masonishappy]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

'''Tier 3:''' [[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]]

'''Tier 4:''' [[lonelygirl362436]], [[The Flock]] (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]

'''Tier 5:''' [[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]

Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think they are more fair. Definitely a better starting point for discussion. I have no objections.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:No objections, Zoey. Let's do it!! --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 28:54, 26 February 2008 (EST)
:I concur. Although, some of the Tier 3 listings are currently being upkept as Tier 2s... Are they going to be expanded more? I still maintain my opinion that only Tier 5 videos should have transcripts, but since I seem to be the voice of the minority, I suppose we can expand it to two. (We do need to set a firm line, though.)
:I will also say that anything Tier 3 or above should get some actual content regarding the SERIES, and not solely the videos. I think if we can't get that together, it should bump it down a bit in the rankings.
::''Also, I think I should add, as I explained in the chat (and apparently neglected to do so above) my earlier listing was not meant to be definitive in any way, and was simply thrown together based on what little I knew of the series, and what content was available. I just wanted to put them out there for discussion.''
:Once the tiers get hashed out, we should archive the discussion and go on to discussions on how exactly to change each series page for the better. They '''all''' could stand some serious work. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:00, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:#When you say "consisting of...", does that mean we'll unify all sub-series on one page? i.e., have only one Cassie UGC page then, not separate *cassie* pages?
:#Have you checked whether any series has something special that'd bump them up, being featured in the Community Appreciation Week or something, for example?
:#Will we make The Flock Deal a general offer?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:24, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think Zoey's proposal is proably the fairest one I've seen so far. As someone who spends a lot of their time on the fanfic area of the LGPedia, and as a fan of many of the UGC series out there. I will say this: I think every three months or so there should be a place where people can state their case for why something should change tiers or not. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 27 February 2008 (EST)
:No objections on my end, Zoey. :) And I really like that idea, FH14 -- who's to say every show is going to be the same forevermore?? -- --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 11:55, 27 February 2008 (CST)
:well, i wanted to try to get iris2009 page into tier 2, no admin besides Jay and Owen and TWj have ever touched it, my fans along with me have cared for the page..all i ask is to keep the 1 page...--[[User:Iris2009|TJ Marsh]] 21:38, 28 February 2008 (CST)
::I can see the reasoning behind a bump-up, especially since the Iris page hasn't gotten horribly over-blown. I can also see an argument for making it Tier 1. I dunno, I could go either way on this, to be honest. (If it does get bumped to Tier 2, I think the page is going to need some rearranging or something; half of the stuff in the introduction isn't really "intro".) I'll wait to see what other people think. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:03, 28 February 2008 (CST)
:::if its not too late, i would vote for iris2009 to be tier 2. to be honest, though, there are a number of series currently listed in tier 1 that i would favor leaving a separate page for. Those would probably be: [[Aaronbeast]] (he did multiple videos, and has been referenced by the creators in public talks), [[Breeiswaiting]] (this video was created by the creators, i am 99% sure), [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]] (because its a story of its own), [[Iris2009]] (multiple videos, subject of controversy over time), [[Kelseygirl15]] (possibly. these are mostly spoofs, but there are a number of them), [[TWJaniak]] (because he is TWJ and a god of lg15 history). Of the others i either didn't follow them and can't comment, or I believe the tier 1 designation is correct. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)
::::Can you back any of this up or elaborate on it?
::::Why do you want Iris on Tier 2, even though he himself wanted it deleted just last week? (Multiple videos is true for ''all'' series - otherwise, they wouldn't be series. And what is this controversy you reference, other than his constant claims to and attempts to become canon?
::::Where/when did the Creators reference Aaronbeast?
::::Can you prove Breeiswaiting was done by the Creators, or at least show us your evidence?
::::How is "a story of its own" notable, given that that is true for most fanfic?
::::Although I like Kelsey, the ground rules specifically state that singular videos without a connecting story arc do not count as fanfic series. There are plans for a "Notable fan videos" page where Kelsey's videos might find a place.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:18, 5 March 2008 (CST)

:::::Renegade: I'll try.
:::::1. Iris shouldn't be the judge of where he should be, though his opinion should be considered. Does he want to be deleted now, or just want one page? And by controversy, yes, I mean his continuing attempts to claim canonhood. Evidence of that is all over the Breeniverse, its noteworthy in my head for that. People say lg15 was a "new art form," but iris is to me. I know others might disagree. Plus, I just like the guy. Sue me.
:::::2. In the FITC talk the creators gave in Toronto in April 2007, they referenced "the fan" who has created a series of videos as Daniel's brother. I remember that one because I watched it for the first time recently. I believe they mentioned that same basic thing at other conferences. Does that along make Aaronbeast deserve his own page? Maybe not, but I put it out there.
:::::3. Breeiswaiting. The breeiswaiting video was the first video response posted and accepted for "The Ceremony," (just a few hours later), and clearly shows where the ceremony was. When Nikki Bower debuted a few weeks later, she made a number of attempts (there are forum posts) to get people to watch the Breeiswaiting video and suggested there was something at the ceremony location to find. Then, when no one went, she went herself and found the box with the Watcher symbol and made a video about it. She credited the breeiswaiting video for helping her find it on the forum. It was only discovered a few months later that Nikki was being done in connection with Amanda. I have never directly asked the C's if they created it. Maybe if you or Zoey asked, they would confirm (or at least not deny it).
:::::4. On the Deacons, I guess I meant it has enough meat to it be its own page. Plus, it was fanfic told thru the comments board, which was unique. (And though it seemed obvious to me it wasn't canon, lots of people thought it might be)
:::::5. Your suggestion as to Kelsey makes sense.
:::::If no one agrees with my suggestions, I'm happy to go with the flow, I just wanted to weigh in.
:::::--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 14:20, 5 March 2008 (CST)

:::::# Hmm. I guess a Tier 2 page could be used to warn the community about him not actually being canon xD Although I'm not sure how his other stuff links into Iris2009.
:::::# Well, being used as an example for all LG15 UGC is kinda notable. It'd be helpful if you could link me to video/transcript, but for now, I'd support Tier 2.
:::::# I see what you mean - that does look suspicious. Agreed for now.
:::::# That "plus" is what's notable, imo. It's either the only comment-board-based fanfic, or the only one I've heard of. Either way, not being video-based and yet still getting known is notable, imo.
::::::I'll update the Suggested Tiers list. Thanks for your input and help.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I hate to upset the applecart, but I have an opinion. (Doesn't everyone?) This is about CassieIsWatching, which is currently listed as a Tier 3. I believe that CassieIsWatching is a special exception, and should be Tier 4. It has done the following: achieved over 250,000 views on just 5 videos; inspired a multitude of Cassie fanfic (including ItsCassie, a Tier 4); inspired OpAphid, the former-official ARG of LG15 and current part of RE88 (a Tier 5); provided a launchpad for the aforementioned OpAphid, which 'gamejacked' CiW's mailbox and responded to its videos; attracted attention of a new audience and provided the majority of LG15.com's forum traffic during its run; historically significant; inspired BreeIsWaiting, which is presumed to have connections to the Creators;and finally, it is currently complete, with around 10 pages, and requires little effort to maintain (as it has ended long, long ago). Again, I don't want to upset matters--I'm not a regular LGPedia contributer--but I strongly believe that CiW should be Tier 4. --[[User:Rekidk|Rekidk]] 22:29, 28 February 2008 (CST)
:Sounds reasonable to me...but for the time being, I'm not even sure this will go through...I haven't checked with the propaganda department and the administration yet. (Just came home half an hour ago.)
:Any objections to bumping up CiW should the Revamp go through?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:47, 2 March 2008 (CST)
:::I see no problem with bumping CiW up a notch . . . it wasn't just popular in its time but downright infamous. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 14:33, 2 March 2008 (CST)
:::No objections. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 15:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)
:I think you have a very valid point about CIW, and it is something I struggled with as coming up with my "proposed listings." The reason I personally decided against giving it a tier 4 listing was because I have been told countless times by people who played the game that the information we have is incomplete or inaccurate in many places. In my opinion, I think it would take some work by the people who are familiar with the series to get the pages accurate before we would want to work them into tier 4. It seems a little silly to me to expand upon pages with inaccurate information. HOWEVER, if we can find someone who is knowledgable, or is willing to do the research to become knowledgable enough to correct the inaccuracies and fill in the gaps, I agree, cassieiswatching definitely has a place on tier 4... maybe even tier 5 depending on just how much information we end up getting about it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:08, 2 March 2008 (CST)
: Not to upset matters, either, but if its fairly complete as is, I concur with Rekidk's views that CiW should be tier 4. CiW has been very influential on the development of lg15 --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)

I agree to mantian the iris page myself, and re do what might need to be changed. ----TJ Marsh

:The Flock was listed as Tier 3, has a large number of pages, and was already well-maintained. Iris is listed as Tier 1 and is currently marked for deletetion on your own wish.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 08:27, 3 March 2008 (CST)

====Greg Mason====
I guess we need to have a discussion on Greg Mason (aka [[masonishappy]]). He's new, which is why I decided to flag it as a new subsection. He's growing in popularity, so he deserves a mention, at the very least, but should he get his own page? Discuss. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:39, 6 March 2008 (CST)
:Hmmm . . . I kinda like the idea of him getting his own page with just a list of videos, but no transcripts yet (I forget what Tier that would qualify under). Later, after some time has passed, we can better judge where he should properly go, either up or down the ladder. At least those are my thoughts, and I'm sure there'll be others
::(But one thing's for sure - Greg's going to be good practice on how we decide to treat new fanfictions post-Revamp). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:14, 6 March 2008 (CST)
:::I vote for him getting his own page, at least for now. People should be coming to LGPedia whenever they wonder about a new promising series. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 13:25, 6 March 2008 (CST)
::::Works for me. I just wanted to get people's input on it. We'll have to make sure to put it on the revisit list, but for now I'll add it to Zoey's Tier 2 list, and I just put him on the Spin-offs page. (Obviously, in the unlikely even that he's canon, he'll need to be removed.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:50, 6 March 2008 (CST)

==Schedule==
Since a large part of the previous discussion participants seems to agree with Zoey's listing, and this project has been going on for two months now, I guess it's time to set a schedule for the next phase(s):
*Unless there are no major further objections, I'll create a '''preliminary final listing on February 29th'''. This, if not objected to, will be the master reference list for tier listings.
*If there are no major further objections to the preliminary final listing until '''March 2nd''', then discussion will be be ceased, and we'll commence the Revamp.
'''NOTE: This schedule will be delayed until further notice, as Zoey doesn't want us to do anything until she's back online.''' (Added by Shiori)
*The Revamp will proceed as follows
**'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.
**'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.
**'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
**'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
**'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.
**'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.
**'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]].

===Page-list===
*Central portal
*List of videos
*Templates:
**Bottom index
**Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
*Character pages
*Actor pages
*Categories to group it all together

==Flock Regulations==
The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page.<br>
Reasons for revocation can be:
*Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
*Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
*The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
*New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
*The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
*The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
*The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
*Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.
----
And before you start complaining: These rules are actually quite gracious. It takes less than ten minutes to get a barebones video page up. You have been given three ''days''. It takes less than one minute to add a link to a list. You have been given ''two days''. If your people work as great as you touted, you should be in no danger. But there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that being incapable of doing a ten-minute-job within three days is a very clear sign your section is ''not'' actively being maintained, and since the only reason you have been given the right to create separate pages is that you vouched to keep them maintained, violation of these regulations will lead to the termination of this deal.<br>
In addition, you should be aware that the pedia doesn't sleep, and it doesn't wait for you. Deadlines will not change because you are on vacation or anything. If your pages go unmaintained just because one person cannot contribute, that's just another sign you cannot handle the workload.<br>
As said above, the timeframes you have been given are very gracious, especially considering that you don't even have to care for the whole pedia, but just a very, very small subset of its pages. So take what you can get, and keep your section maintained - any complaints will only lead to a re-evaluation of these timeframes, and might very well lead to the administration deciding that you don't really need two days to put up a single link.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:16, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::1) I do question whether you have the authority on behalf of the administration to impose regulations but in the end it doesn't matter.<br>
::2) That fact that this section takes almost half the page is telling. You've obviously spent a great deal of time looking at Flock page histories to see how long it takes for types of edits to be made. I can only assume that your sheriff of these parts and will be keeping a close eye to insure these regulations are met.</br>
::4) These are fan contributions, no one is running to the lgpedia to read transcripts for current vids. It's about archiving. The one thing this process has ignored from the very beginning is how and why these pags are used. They are used differently than the canon series.<br>
::5) When reading "superfluous content (like the current character placeholders)" is where my needle ticked. We ended season 1 with every character's future uncertain. Since the lgpedia is our only web presence I put the placeholders in to create suspense between seasons and as the season got started as to which characters would return and which new ones would show up. We revealed a new character as recently as last week. You might have a case if I upload new images for this purpose but I used the same image that has been on the page since day one in each case. It just shows that you're looking really hard to find something to complain about and will continue to do so.<br>
::6) The fact that you've named these "Immo's Regulations" suggest that I somehow am getting special treatment. I don't want or need special treatment. I mean if my people are doing the editing doesn't that ease the burden of other editors? Seems like a fair exchange to me.<br>
::7) At the end of the day all this appears to be is a petty pathetic attempt to best me and guess what? You win, tell a friend. Our project is very laid back. I don't hold the girls to a video schedule I'm sure as hell am not going to hold them to your regulations. Whoever has edited the Flockipedia has done so without any prodding from me. They are free to still do so. I won't discourage them but I'd expect they won't. Whether FH14 continues to do so is up to him. I'll take this opportunity to thank him for all his hard work. So however far back you scale the Flock's pages I expect the administration to maintain them at the same level as others in the same tier.
::--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 18:43, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::#Question all you want...I have no fear of it.
::#Actually, I've got better things to do than to police you...I'm four weeks past schedule on the portal redesign, have to fix character icons and whatnot. But I'm sure FH14 will keep an eye on everything.
::#Yeah...you kinda don't have 3. Cheating on the numbers, are we?
::#So? The fact that your users use your pages differently than the canon ones is a reason they should be allowed to make the pedia as a whole look incomplete? ''Transcript missing'' looks like "The pedia is missing a transcript.", not "Immo had a logical reason not to put up a transcript at the moment, and the pedia is not at fault for this.". You may not care if a transcript is missing, but for us, it means the pedia looks incomplete. The fact that you don't seem to grasp that your pages directly represent LGPedia to the readers explains why you don't give a fuck about our needs. I don't care for what reason you put up transcripts, as long as they're there. Nobody is reading Flock pages thinking "oh, these are immo's pages" - they are reading ''the pedia'', and everything they see falls back on ''the pedia''. When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad, not you.
::#Your needle can tick all it wants. The fact that you had to write a whole thick paragraph to explain these placeholders should tell you it's not obvious. For everyone else, it looks like somebody failed at table building. If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something, so the user knows it's meant to be empty, and not just horrible layouting.
::#Ever heard of "Miranda Laws"? You're a precedent, and the only one getting this special bumping so far. Thus, it's named after you. Why should I name it "Tier 4 Exception Regulations" when, technically, Tier 4 already ''is'' the exception? Face it, you're getting special treatment, and you're the only one getting it so far, so it's named after you.<br>And, just for the sake of mentioning it: Once more, your argument can be spun both ways - deleting all but one Flock pages would also ease our burden, and a lot more than still having to patrol what your users do on 50 pages.
::#Oh, I'm sorry, were you out of arguments? Did you find no way to attack me on the subject matter? I don't care if your project is laid back, how you keep your girls or whatever. It's time you finally grasp this is not about you in any way. It's about the pedia as a whole and all of the fanfic. The only reason it's personalized for you is because you're the only creator who got here trying to defend his creation with nonsense, insults, and pulling strings behind the scenes.<br>You were speaking about how stuff was telling. You know what's telling? That in six points you had, you didn't question a single of the regulations I wrote. All your six points were direct attacks at me. First questioning my authority, then insinuating I was unrightfully thinking of myself as a sort of "pedia police", going on to imply that I just don't understand your ways, that I was unfairly pointing out obvious flaws in your design, that I was highlighting you for no apparent reason, and finally, directly saying I'm picking on you, calling me pathetic.<br>You may think you did a great job at undermining my credibility, insulting me, or whatever the hell you tried there. Fact is, this was your response to the regulations, you did not object to them, so they will go in effect as written, unless the administration intervenes.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (CST)

:::::Again in your effort to "win" you miss the most important point which is where I said I will not follow your regulations nor will I ask anyone else to and I concede what that means in terms of whatever tier the administration deems the Flock should go. Could that be the reason I didn'nt object to the them?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 22:56, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::::::Then I guess this deal is void and your pages will be collapsed.
::::::<nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> Less work for us.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:01, 27 February 2008 (CST)
:::Okay, here's my two cents on this whole thing. You can argue back at me if you want or whatever, but I'm just stating what I took from this.
:::Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.
:::And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing? I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad."
:::You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.
:::Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it? So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.
:::And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?
:::<nowiki>*takes a deep breath and closes the window*</nowiki>
:::[[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 01:12, 28 February 2008 (CST)

::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.}}
::::That is what I tried to say - they look nice to ''you'' because you know what they are. For the uninitiated, they look like random crap added by someone who didn't know how to correctly build a table, and had to fill up the remaining cells. I was not suggesting to reveal anything (hence the "or something") - I was merely suggesting to make obvious to ''everyone'' that these images are supposed to be where they are and that they serve a function, and that they aren't just fillers to hold the table together.<br>Immo specifically said he created them to create suspense - would it hurt the suspense to add "New season 2 character?" or something on it? That would give away nothing, have the same effect, and everybody would know it's supposed to be there.<br>But nooooo, instead we add cryptic symbols, expecting everyone to psychically guess their true meaning.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing?}}
::::Zoey.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad."}}
::::And I'm pretty sure Zoey and an armada of KM users were pretty unhappy about it, and said armada did not blame specific, random users, but blamed the general entity "the pedia" for not having transcripts. That's like saying, "I see you already have too many pages to work on, so why do you not want ours to work on, too?" I fail to see your point. (And for the record: I don't watch KM. I am not involved in any KM operation on this site, except for template hardcode fixing. What you say may be true, but I know nothing about it.)
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.}}
::::My statement was not to say that you as a Flock user would go around and check for missing RE transcripts. My point was, the generic user doesn't go "Oh my, FH14 failed to add the second half of transcript XY yet!", but "BAH! The pedia's transcript is incomplete again!". The users don't look at sub-sections or individual users. If a transcript is missing, it's not missing on an episode page of the Flock subsection. It's missing on "the pedia".<br>Thus, any missing transcript gives the pedia as a whole a bad image.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it?}}
::::That was the basis of the deal, yes. The regulations would've caught if you ''didn't'' do that, because then you ''wouldn't'' be self-servicing, and ''would'' require additional help. Had you updated the pages as normal, everything would've been fine, and you'd never have heard of the regulations again.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.}}
::::And that is exactly what's inacceptable. Users don't have a magic page radar that tells them "''Now'' you can come, page's ready!" - they come when they want to look something up. And when the page isn't there, see above - they don't go "Oh damn, Babygurl1853 hasn't added a video page for Flock 64 yet." they go "WTF?? Does the pedia STILL not have a page?? The episode has been out for two weeks!!!".<br>This is what the regulations were for. They set you a certain timeframe. Had you wanted to put the episode links after 10 minutes, ten hours or a day, we wouldn't have cared. We'd just have cared had you not done it within two days, since it's a ten-second-job, after all. You may not care if there is no video page. The readers do. And they blame all of us, not you personally.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?}}
::::It's apparent that you either didn't talk to Immo beforehand, or that Immo intentionally failed to mention certain facts about his live conversations. Rest assured, I know for a fact that this wasn't the first place this deal was suggested, and rest assured I, personally, told him that the volume of pages and their well-maintained condition were greatly speaking for keeping them. (I have logs to prove that, too.)
::::This isn't about me hating Immo. This is about Immo's resistance to respect that the administration of this encyclopedia has to make sure its content is in a reasonable state of maintenance, and that his desire to keep more than 50 pages and more adds to the editing burden we ''all'' have to share. If you don't understand why all of us, ask Immo - I explained it to him multiple times on IRC.
::::As for your last question, if said theoretical fanfic would be eligible for such a deal (i.e. be in Tier 3 and have a reasonable argument to bump up to 4 if it sustains itself), and it agrees to the proposed regulations and accept the consequences should it fail to adhere to the regulations, I'd have no problem with it. It's just that the very fact that you have proven before that you can run the section on your own is what gave Immo the leverage to broker this deal - other fanfics have not shown such self-management capabilities. Nobody, not even me, doubted you could easily stay within the regulations. Especially if you are an active pedia editor, you know exactly that it doesn't take three days to add a main character to the portal. With image upload, with preparations, with extra time for weird bugs, it takes 30 minutes max.
::::And yet, 3 days for a 30 minute task are apparently not good enough for Immo. Whatever. I have proposed the regulations, I can show you countless examples for every task showing that you would've gotten vastly more time then necessary, if that's still not good enough for Immo, that's not my fault. This is not Immo's personal pedia praise party, this is content reorganization. He had fought his way to get his very own special deal, he didn't want it. That's his decision, not mine.
::::In all likelyhood, had Immo agreed, nothing would've have changed for The Flock whatsoever.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:36, 28 February 2008 (CST)
:It looks like this has gotten... ''interesting'' to say the least. I'm going to start out by saying that I have few objections to the regulations Renegade has proposed (''few'' not ''a few'', as in I only have 1 or 2 minor ones. That would be in the case we had a few weeks ago, where a new character is added who has a number of videos that need to be added, in that case, the transcription deadline could be extended while the others remain the same.) I'm not even going to touch on the whole Immo-backdoor-deal-that-he-and-Satan-made-to-bug-Renegade-for-several-weeks thing (I find it amusing how you two can both accuse the other of being rude in the most civil way possible. :P) A way to ease the whole "incomplete" transcripts make the lgpedia look bad would be to make the '''!!!Transcript Incomplete!!!''' less obvious looking on all the pages where that template is used. (Please note, I am not trying to sound mean or demanding, and I apologize if I come across that way, also, I changed "Immo Regulations" to "Flock Regulations" to kill any arguments over that). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 20:12, 3 March 2008 (EST)
:I have nothing else to add...Other than to point at the latest Flock video, which had page, image, transcript, and character background added and updated before even immo saw the video :D *is a good girl* [[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 19:51, 2 March 2008 (CST)

:::Has a final decision been made? After reading all this i don't actually see a clear meeting of the minds as to how the plan will be implemented. However if a final decision has been made it should be announced. Personally I think the final decision should be a set of voluntary guidelines rather than "regulations". It should be up to the users to decide how they are implemented, but it would give the admins a blueprint to "nudge" users in a helpful direction. It would also give the admins the freedom to move things around where there are no clear objections which I think would be the majority of situations.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:30, 6 March 2008 (CST)

::Basically Zoey told us to do nothing except discuss until she manages to get her computer fixed. I'm not sure when that'll happen, either. (I added a note to the schedule.)- [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 15:27, 6 March 2008 (CST)

::: I do not see why there is any need for special time lines because LGPedia already uses a system for tagging pages that are going to be modified. The same system will work fine here without specific regulations. That said, LGPedia admins need to apply the tags in a way that gives users adequate time to respond in the talk page, but I believe that is how they currently operate.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:53, 6 March 2008 (CST)

::::Because the situation is different - normal pages get tagged as normal. This was about pages that wouldn't even exist under normal conditions. Also, the tags are practically open-ended. Just because something is flagged as cleanup doesn't mean anybody actually cleans it up. Yet, the promise that would've been made by the deal was that pages don't need to be worried about in the first place, thus, had it come as far as that we'd actually have to tag a Flock page, they would already have violated the deal.
::::As for whether we will proceed at all - I don't know. Zoey sounded like the Revamp would continue, but specifically said we're not supposed to go forward without her. We're kind of in limbo right now.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I think we need to make sure the voluntary guidelines work for everyone. I also think they need to be flexible enough to cope with all situations without making "deals". We want to ecourage people to build great pages, not force them into timetables. In general its pretty obvious when a page has been abandoned and when it has just not been updated.
Such pages can be tagged and if there is no objection they can be edited/moved as is the normal procedure on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:44, 7 March 2008 (CST)

:I don't quite see the point of that. The reason for those "guidelines" was that they were ''not'' voluntary - that they were necessary control mechanisms to make sure Immo kept his part of the deal. Since Immo has no interest in the deal with them, they're more or less irrelevant anyway. (Not to mention that, as ''any'' pedian can confirm to you, that "forcing into timetables" was set up very generously - just ask Shi how or Babygurl how long they usually need to add a transcript, and then compare that to the week of slack allowed.)
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:29, 7 March 2008 (CST)
:I simply do not see a need for "rules" to implement the "Tier System". The discussion on this page demonstrates that the normal wiki process works and voluntary guidelines for the entire "Tier System" are more in keeping with the philosophy of an entertainment wiki. I think that gives users the most freedom to be creative in their approach while allowing the pedia to retain the sense of order needed. The pages that have been tagged with the link to this discussion have had ample time to discuss their concerns and where those have been fully resolved I think its fair to proceed under the basis of voluntary guidelines. However where fans and series producers have concerns those should be discussed and resolved as is normal wiki procedure.--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 14:29, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

==See also==
*Related discussions:
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]
**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]

Zoey

2008-01-20T17:39:04Z

69.84.124.209: /* Juggling For World Peace */

{{one other use|the LGPedia administrator|the Redearth88 character|Zoey (Redearth88 character)}}
[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] has been watching LG15 since the summer of 2006, and currently serves as the head administrator of the [[LGPedia]].

===LGPedia===
Starting out as just another lowly user and editor of the LGPedia, Zoey's dedication and talent soon became apparent, and she quickly rose to the position of head administrator of LGPedia, a title she has held since May 2007. Zoey is currently the only LGPedia user to to have made [[:Category:Members of LGPedia Nirvana|more than 10,000 edits]], a truly noteworthy feat.

===Juggling For World Peace===
Zoey is also the founder of the [http://jugglingforworldpeace.blogspot.com Juggling for World Peace Movement]. The idea behind the project is to have fans create videos where they juggle and then post them in response to her [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecm0NxpdqU original video]. In fact, [[Daniel|Danielbeast]] himself made an official LG15 video ([[Living with Girls]] (Sept. 18, 2007)) wherein he juggled. [[Yousef Abu-Taleb|Yousef]] later [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgc2-GpjSbc confirmed] on [[F.O.B. Life]] that was he was indeed "Juggling For World Peace".

[[Juggling For World Peace]] was also referenced in the [[KateModern]] video, "[[War is Over]]", where [[Steve]] gave [[Gavin]] juggling balls for Christmas.

On December 30, 2007 [[Greg Gallows|GregGallows]] released a video called "Juggling For World Peace Trailer (Happy Birthday Zoey!)" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVaXYAyvkW8] on behalf of the fan community to celebrate the occasion of Zoey's 20th birthday. The video can also be seen at the Bebo "Juggling For World Peace" group page where members also created a "Zoey Birthday Wall" in a collaborative fan project [http://www.bebo.com/Juggling4WorldPeace].

[[Image:Juggling For World Peace 3.jpg]]

On January 11, 2008 Daniel made his second reference to juggling in the video [[Looking For A Date]].

===RedEarth88===
[[Rachel]]'s, a main character in [[Redearth88]], video, [[2 Girls 1 Dwelling]], contained a shout-out to [[Zoey (Redearth88 character)|Zoey]].

===LG15 IRC Chat===
Zoey is also a longtime IRC user, and has been an operator in the [http://java.freenode.net//index.php?channel=LG15chat LG15 IRC chat room] since its inception in November of 2007.

[[Category:Notable fans]]

Zoey

2008-01-20T17:38:44Z

69.84.124.209: /* Juggling For World Peace */

{{one other use|the LGPedia administrator|the Redearth88 character|Zoey (Redearth88 character)}}
[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] has been watching LG15 since the summer of 2006, and currently serves as the head administrator of the [[LGPedia]].

===LGPedia===
Starting out as just another lowly user and editor of the LGPedia, Zoey's dedication and talent soon became apparent, and she quickly rose to the position of head administrator of LGPedia, a title she has held since May 2007. Zoey is currently the only LGPedia user to to have made [[:Category:Members of LGPedia Nirvana|more than 10,000 edits]], a truly noteworthy feat.

===Juggling For World Peace===
Zoey is also the founder of the [http://jugglingforworldpeace.blogspot.com Juggling for World Peace Movement]. The idea behind the project is to have fans create videos where they juggle and then post them in response to her [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ecm0NxpdqU original video]. In fact, [[Daniel|Danielbeast]] himself made an official LG15 video ([[Living with Girls]] (Sept. 18, 2007)) wherein he juggled. [[Yousef Abu-Taleb|Yousef]] later [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgc2-GpjSbc confirmed] on [[F.O.B. Life]] that was he was indeed "Juggling For World Peace".

[[Juggling for World Peace]] was also referenced in the [[KateModern]] video, "[[War is Over]]", where [[Steve]] gave [[Gavin]] juggling balls for Christmas.

On December 30, 2007 [[Greg Gallows|GregGallows]] released a video called "Juggling For World Peace Trailer (Happy Birthday Zoey!)" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVaXYAyvkW8] on behalf of the fan community to celebrate the occasion of Zoey's 20th birthday. The video can also be seen at the Bebo "Juggling For World Peace" group page where members also created a "Zoey Birthday Wall" in a collaborative fan project [http://www.bebo.com/Juggling4WorldPeace].

[[Image:Juggling For World Peace 3.jpg]]

On January 11, 2008 Daniel made his second reference to juggling in the video [[Looking For A Date]].

===RedEarth88===
[[Rachel]]'s, a main character in [[Redearth88]], video, [[2 Girls 1 Dwelling]], contained a shout-out to [[Zoey (Redearth88 character)|Zoey]].

===LG15 IRC Chat===
Zoey is also a longtime IRC user, and has been an operator in the [http://java.freenode.net//index.php?channel=LG15chat LG15 IRC chat room] since its inception in November of 2007.

[[Category:Notable fans]]

Universe

2007-10-15T19:46:56Z

69.84.124.209:

:''In the context of this article the term Universe is used as it relates to a non-fictional video series. For the more conventional use of the term universe see {{wikipedia|Universe|Wikipedia}}.''

Most fictional works take place in the "real world" unless there is a {{wikipedia|Mythology|specific mythology}} for the series, in which case you find niche universes. For example, {{wikipedia|Marvel_Universe|Marvel Universe}}, {{wikipedia|Whedonverse}} and [[Breeniverse]] each take place within their own universe with their own mythology. They exist individually unless there is a crossover. When Marvel Universe overlaps with {{wikipedia|DC_Universe|DC Universe}} there is no new universe created to represent the combined universe.

The description of a universe, its characters and its other elements becomes vitally important when discussing User Generated Content. When a producer selects a universe to create their series in they are not only selecting how their story line might interact with the story line in that universe but they must also consider all facets of the mythology in that universe

One additional area are where this has become important is in understand the [http://www.lg15.com/info/terms/ Terms of Use] provided by [[the Creators]].

The below Venn diagram shows the relationship between "elements" used by the Creators, and UGC creators (fan fiction creators) both in the extended universe and the parallel universes.

==Description of area in the Venn Diagram==
[[Image:Universe.JPG|right|350px]]

'''LG15 Universe (excluding the overlap):''' Elements contained within this region were officially produced by [[the Creators]]. These include those elements in the [[Portal:Lonelygirl15|Lonelygirl15 Universe]] (also known as the [[Breeniverse]]) and the [[Portal:KateModern|KateModern Universe]]. It would also include any unique elments used in any future series created by the Creators within the LG15 Universe. An element in this area would only have been used by the Creators in one of their series and never used by a UGC creator (for instance, [[Alex's house]]).

'''Extended:''' Elements contained within this region were created by fans who are telling a story that exists in the LG15 extended Universe. An element in this area has never been used within the LG15 story line.

'''Overlap between LG15 Universe and Extended:''' Elements contained within this region were originally created by either the Creators or UGC creators but have been used by both. The [[Hymn of One]] would be an example of such an element.

'''Parallel Universe:''' Elements in this area were created by UGC creators who intended to tell their own story using them. They do not include any elements from the LG15 universe. Any number of independent universe could be built from these elements and the use of any subset of elements within this group would be determined by the UGG creators who conceived them.

==Application of the Universe concept to individual video series==
Elements help define a universe, but the entire universe a fan video series exists in must also be examined as a whole. In this context the term universe is used to describe a "world" or "realm" in which a series exists, as opposed to a set of elments, as defined in the previous section. For that purpose the issue must be examined from two perspectives: that of the Creators' and that of UGC creators':

=== LG15 Video Universe ===
The LG15 Universe contains everything that is officially produced by [[the Creators]] including the [[Portal:Lonelygirl15|Lonelygirl15 Universe]] and the [[Portal:KateModern|KateModern Universe]]. These series contain elments that exist within the "LG15 Universe" in the Venn diagram above (including the overlap region). The LG15 Universe will also include any future shows created by the Creators using elements from the same region of the Venn diagram.

=== UGG Video Universe (Fan Video Universe) ===
Fan produced videos can exist either within the Lonelygirl15 Universe/KateModern Universe (or a combination of both) or they can exist in an entirely new universe created by the writers/producers of the fan video series. A fan video can either use elements from the Lonelygirl15 Universe/KateModern Universe (overlap region) and combine those with its own unique elements (extended region) in which case it would be considered part of an LG15 Extended Universe.
If a UGC video uses only elements that are totally unique to its plot (i.e. from the parallel universe region of the Venn diagram) then it would exist in a Parallel Universe.

==External Links==
* Fictional Universe on Wikipeidia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_universe]

[[Category: Meta-discussion]]

__NOTOC__

User talk:69.84.124.209

2007-10-01T23:52:26Z

69.84.124.209: /* Welcome! */

== Welcome! ==

Hi. I just wanted to officially welcome you to LGPedia. I've noticed you've been doing a variety of things, from creating pages for actors to fixing formatting issues. We can always use more people around here and I appreciate your help. If you have any questions about anything, feel free to ask me on my [[User talk:Jonpro|talk page]]. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 19:22, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

::oh crap, I just noticed that I am logged out of LGPedia.......--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 19:36, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

:::Really? What's your username?--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:49, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

::lol....its me!--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 00:10, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

:::"[[User:Modelmotion|Modelmotion]], I presume?" [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 06:24, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

:Maybe I should have a better cloaking device:)--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 18:52, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
----

User talk:69.84.124.209

2007-08-31T05:10:35Z

69.84.124.209: /* Welcome! */

User talk:69.84.124.209

2007-08-28T00:36:00Z

69.84.124.209: /* Welcome! */

User talk:69.84.124.209

2007-08-28T00:34:35Z

69.84.124.209: /* Welcome! */

Katherine Pawlak

2007-08-28T00:17:43Z

69.84.124.209:

Katherine Pawlak

Peter James

2007-08-26T02:06:15Z

69.84.124.209:

Actor who plays Jonas dad.

Brother replies to Tachyon

2007-08-25T23:20:54Z

69.84.124.209:

So, here is what we have so far and the clip number we are missing:

* 1 - 0:03 "Don't Hate Me" by The Get Up Kids
* 2 - 0:06 "Dirty Little Secret" by All-American Rejects
* 3 - 0:09 "Crazy in Love" by Beyonce
* 4 - 0:13 "It Feels Good" by Tony Toni Tone
* 5 - 0:17 "Top Of The World" by Juliana Theory
* 6 - 0:17 "Scenario" by Tribe Called Quest
* 7
* 8 - 0:23 "Am I Ready" by Spitalfield
* 9 - 0:26 ????? (lalalas)
* 10 - 0:26 "If I Could Talk, I'd Tell You" by The Lemonheads
* 11 - 0:30 "All The Things She Said" by T.A.T.U.
* 12 - 0:33 "It's Gonna Be Me" by 'N Sync
* 13 - 0:37 ?????
* 14 - 0:40 "So Help Me God" by DC Talk
* 15 - 0:44 "Work" by Jimmy Eat World
* 16 - 0:46 "$85 bucks an hour" by Twiztid
* 17 - 0:53 "New Beginnings" by Finch
* 18 - 0:59 "Hands Clean" by Alanis Morrisette
* 19 - 1:01 "No Myth" by Michael Penn
* 20 - 1:02 "Same Song" by Tupac/Digital Underground
* 21 - ???
* 22 - 1:08 "Buried Myself Alive" by The Used
* 23 - 1:11 "Torn in Two" by Wax
* 24 - 1:11 "Buried Myself Alive" by The Used (cut at a different place than the previous entry)
* 25 - 1:15 "I'm A Fool" by American Hi-Fi
* 26 - 1:20 "All 4 Love" by Color Me Badd
* 27 - 1:24 "What's My Age Again" by Blink 182
* 28 - 1:28 "Somewhere I Belong" by Linkin Park
* 29 - 1:30 "What Would You Do" by City High
* 30 - 1:34 "No More Questions" by Eazy-e
* 31 - 1:41 "Where Is My Mind" by The Pixies
* 32 - 1:43 "Since You've Been Gone" by Kelly Clarkson
* 33 - 1:49 ?????
* 34 - 1:55 "Fell In Love With A Girl" by The White Stripes
* 35 - 1:57 "Cool It Now" by New Edition
* 36 - 2:01 "It Takes Two" by Rob Base and DJ E-Z Rock
* 37 - 2:02 "Somebody Told Me" by The Killers
* 38 - 2:05 "Danger" by Mystikal
* 39 - 2:07 "All Downhill From Here" by New Found Glory
* 40 - 2:11 "Here's Where The Story Ends" by Tin Tin Out/The Sundays
* 41 - 2:16 "Cruel Summer" by Bananarama
* 42 - 2:20 ?????
* 43
* 44 - 2:26 ???
* 45
* 46 - 2:29 "Where'd You Go" by Mighty Mighty Bosstones
* 47 - 2:34 "Prevent This Tragedy" by Alkaline Trio

Maddison Avenue

2007-08-25T23:18:26Z

69.84.124.209:

{|style="border-spacing:0px;margin:0px -8px"
|class="Header" style="width:800px;border:0px solid white;background-color:white;vertical-align:top;color:white"|
[[Image:MaddisonAvenueHelp.jpg|center]]
|}

{|style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
|class="MainPageBG" style="width:800px;border:1px solid #535353;background-color:#ee6622;vertical-align:top;color:#ee6622"|
{|width="100%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#ee6622"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#ee6622;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:0px;text-align:center;color:#551100">Maddison Atkins (1987-2007) ~ This Is Not A Game</h2>
|}

{|style="border-spacing:8px;margin:0px -8px"
|class="MainPageBG" style="width:395px;border:1px solid #000;background-color:#eeeecc;vertical-align:top;color:#000"|
{|width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#eeeecc"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   Chapter 1 People   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#551100"|
{| border="2" align="center" border-color="#551100"
| style="background:#551100"|[[Image:95px-MaddisonImmerseMyself.jpg|Maddison Atkins]]
| style="background:#551100"|[[Image:95px-AdamHTMLvis.jpg|Adam]]
| style="background:#551100"|[[Image:95px-MaddisonAvenueFinney.jpg|Mr Zipp]]
|-
|align=center style=background:#ee6622| '''[[Maddison Atkins|<span style="color:#eeee77">Maddison</span>]]'''
|align=center style=background:#ee6622| '''[[Adam|<span style="color:#eeee77">Adam</span>]]'''
|align=center style=background:#ee6622| '''[[Mr. Zipp|<span style="color:#eeee77">Mr. Zipp</span>]]'''
|}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   Chapter 1 Videos   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#000"|

*[[What Happened Today Part 1]] ({{revver|232294|watch}})
*[[What Happened Today Part 2]] ({{revver|232346|watch}})
*[[Immerse Myself]] ({{revver|233047|watch}})
*[[A little help from Whiskey]] ({{revver|235300|watch}})
*[[Drop Found!]] ({{revver|236080|watch}})
*[[Pigeon Part II]] ({{revver|238274|watch}})
*[[Making My War Nook (April 18th)]] ({{revver|239684|watch}})
*[[Summary (April 20th)]] ({{revver|241870|watch}})
*[[Final Check. Pigeon Launch (April 21st)]] ({{revver|242609|watch}})
*[[3rd Note - No Pigeon (April 22nd)]] ({{youtube|vCfOSTvn2MI|watch}})
*[[I Heard Pain, Odd Evil Fiction]] by [[War Pylol]] ({{youtube|BNwn2hzC8i4|watch}})
*[[Running (April 25th)]] ({{revver|247300|watch}})
*[[Intense Jihad, If Cubit Dipped]] by [[lofisyndicate|dehteraew]] ({{youtube|J8fwZXPv1JQ|watch}})
*[[Hurry]] by [[lofisyndicate|dehteraew]] ({{youtube|uh_7A1m4br4|watch}})
*[[No More]] ({{revver|252375|watch}})
*[[War]] by [[lofisyndicate|dehteraew]] ({{youtube|p7uO7n4G28I|watch}})

<h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   Chapter 2 People   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#551100"|
{| border="2" align="center" border-color="#551100"
| style="background:#551100"|[[Image:95px-clarastokes.jpg|Clara Stokes]]
| style="background:#551100"|[[Image:Linc-cropped.jpg|95px|Linc]]
| style="background:#551100"|[[Image:Rachel-cropped.jpg|95px|Rachel]]
|-
|align=center style=background:#ee6622| '''[[Clara Stokes|<span style="color:#eeee77">Clara</span>]]'''
|align=center style=background:#ee6622| '''[[Lofisyndicate|<span style="color:#eeee77">Linc</span>]]'''
|align=center style=background:#ee6622| '''[[Redearth|<span style="color:#eeee77">Rachel</span>]]'''
|}

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   Chapter 2 Videos   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#000"|

*[[Thesis Statement]] ({{revver|326907|watch}})
*[[Adam Lamar, Pine Log Editor]] ({{revver|328452|watch}})
*[[Officer Terrell]] ({{revver|330654|watch}})
*[[Gregory Atkins]] ({{revver|331644|watch}})
*[[Lo-Fi Resurgence]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|fl0qOvr1ELc|watch}})
*[[Hello. I am Rachel's first video blog.]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|EKAx7T98_tc|watch}})
*[[I've Got Issues]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|P9lbiVm6UJA|watch}})
*[[Make It Go Away]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|mobaSWH9NMc|watch}})
*[[Joel Frady]] ({{revver|333233|watch}})
*[[Crazy Bitch]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|XXKlQEAOAjE|watch}})
*[[15OVER15]] by [[15over15]] ({{youtube|tIqiqN9cwp8|watch}})
*[[Maddison's Apartment]] ({{revver|335846|watch}})
*[[A Sigh of Relief & Other Random Events]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|-j4QqKTcRdQ|watch}})
*[[Nacogdoches DA]] ({{revver|338708|watch}})
*[[Cynthia Frady]] ({{revver|339082|watch}})
*[[Creepy Stalking 101]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|lBbzvce0utI|watch}})
*[[Missing Tapes]] ({{revver|339157|watch}})
*[[Interrogation + Date = INTERRODATING]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|pGHlbrkfhnc|watch}})
*[[First Date Postmortem]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|mLmDckFwcms|watch}})
*[[Duke Johnson]] ({{revver|339225|watch}})
*[[677 Dickinson Rusk]] ({{revver|339539|watch}})
*[[The Best Deceptions]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|lhNIr7u_9F0|watch}})
*[[Outside The Clinic]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|pmA3siyjlos|watch}})
*[[Text and Voice Messages]] ({{revver|339640|watch}})
*[[Joel is Dead]] ({{revver|340222|watch}})
*[[Inside The Clinic]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|84N4o6IS6DI|watch}})
*[[Waking Up]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|LYLgI-2CWWc|watch}})
*[[Kinda Sorta Lonely]] by [[redearth]] ({{youtube|oZX7mxPiuVw|watch}})
*[[Tide To Revenge Afire]] by [[War Pylol]] ({{youtube|O5mubkymWj8|watch}})
*[[Cut To The Chase]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|X1NlqkkqX24|watch}})
*[[Worth The Wait?]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|Q3lCSLT-V9g|watch}})
*[[Gregory Atkins called us]] ({{revver|352617|watch}})
*[[Remember Me?]] by [[OpAphid]] ({{youtube|PUZL0aYHVUM|watch}})
*[[A Little Help, Perhaps?]] by [[lofisyndicate]] ({{youtube|gquDjRT_3nM|watch}})
*[[This is nothing]] ({{revver|366189|watch}})
*[[Can You Help A Brother Out?]] by [[Brother]] ({{youtube|2PvMk4H0_0w|watch}})

|-

|}
|class="MainPageBG" style="width:395px;border:1px solid #000;background-color:#eeeecc;vertical-align:top"|
{| width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="5" style="vertical-align:top;background-color:#eeeecc"
! <h2 style="margin:0;background:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   Useful Links   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#000"|
* [[Everything You Need To Know About Maddison Atkins]]
* [http://lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewforum.php?f=117 Maddison Atkins Forum]
* [[Following the Clues]]
* [[VM numbers]]
|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   The Puzzles (with solutions)   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#000"|
*[[Pigeon message]]
*[[Pigeon message 2]]
*[[Message on the door knob]]
*[[Rice Vial message]]
*[[Linc's voice mail]]
*[[Joel's voice mail]]
*[[OpAphid Puzzle]]
*[[Brother's voice mail]]
*[[Brother replies to Tachyon]]

|-
! <h2 style="margin:0;background-color:#eeee77;font-size:120%;font-weight:bold;border:1px solid #000;text-align:center;color:#cc5533;padding:0.2em 0.4em;">[[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish1trans.gif]]   The Drops (with solutions)   [[Image:MaddisonAvenueSmallFish2trans.gif]]</h2>
|-
|style="color:#000"|
*[[The Rue B]] April 15th, 2007
*[[The Hurricane]] April 19th, 2007
*[[Marsh Chapel, Boston U]] April 22nd, 2007
*[[Cafe Coco, Nashville]] July 19th, 2007
*[[Ray's Jazz, London]] July 21st, 2007
|-

|}
|}
|}

__NOTOC__ __NOEDITSECTION__
[[Category:Maddison Atkins]]

Brother replies to Tachyon

2007-08-25T23:17:23Z

69.84.124.209:

So, here is what we have so far and the clip number we are missing:

1 - 0:03 "Don't Hate Me" by The Get Up Kids
2 - 0:06 "Dirty Little Secret" by All-American Rejects
3 - 0:09 "Crazy in Love" by Beyonce
4 - 0:13 "It Feels Good" by Tony Toni Tone
5 - 0:17 "Top Of The World" by Juliana Theory
6 - 0:17 "Scenario" by Tribe Called Quest
7
8 - 0:23 "Am I Ready" by Spitalfield
9 - 0:26 ????? (lalalas)
10 - 0:26 "If I Could Talk, I'd Tell You" by The Lemonheads
11 - 0:30 "All The Things She Said" by T.A.T.U.
12 - 0:33 "It's Gonna Be Me" by 'N Sync
13 - 0:37 ?????
14 - 0:40 "So Help Me God" by DC Talk
15 - 0:44 "Work" by Jimmy Eat World
16 - 0:46 "$85 bucks an hour" by Twiztid
17 - 0:53 "New Beginnings" by Finch
18 - 0:59 "Hands Clean" by Alanis Morrisette
19 - 1:01 "No Myth" by Michael Penn
20 - 1:02 "Same Song" by Tupac/Digital Underground
21 - ???
22 - 1:08 "Buried Myself Alive" by The Used
23 - 1:11 "Torn in Two" by Wax
24 - 1:11 "Buried Myself Alive" by The Used (cut at a different place than the previous entry)
25 - 1:15 "I'm A Fool" by American Hi-Fi
26 - 1:20 "All 4 Love" by Color Me Badd
27 - 1:24 "What's My Age Again" by Blink 182
28 - 1:28 "Somewhere I Belong" by Linkin Park
29 - 1:30 "What Would You Do" by City High
30 - 1:34 "No More Questions" by Eazy-e
31 - 1:41 "Where Is My Mind" by The Pixies
32 - 1:43 "Since You've Been Gone" by Kelly Clarkson
33 - 1:49 ?????
34 - 1:55 "Fell In Love With A Girl" by The White Stripes
35 - 1:57 "Cool It Now" by New Edition
36 - 2:01 "It Takes Two" by Rob Base and DJ E-Z Rock
37 - 2:02 "Somebody Told Me" by The Killers
38 - 2:05 "Danger" by Mystikal
39 - 2:07 "All Downhill From Here" by New Found Glory
40 - 2:11 "Here's Where The Story Ends" by Tin Tin Out/The Sundays
41 - 2:16 "Cruel Summer" by Bananarama
42 - 2:20 ?????
43
44 - 2:26 ???
45
46 - 2:29 "Where'd You Go" by Mighty Mighty Bosstones
47 - 2:34 "Prevent This Tragedy" by Alkaline Trio

Emma

2007-08-25T06:55:06Z

69.84.124.209: /* Notes */

{{Person
| name = Emma
| image =
| age = ?? - ??
| birthday =
| youtube =
| revver =
| myspace =
| actor =
| first = [[A Family Affair]]
| last = [[[A Family Affair]]
| unseen = no
| color = slategray
}}
Emma is Jonas apparent sister who first appears in the video [[A Family Affair]]

==Notes==
*It is not clear if Emma is the same character that was described as Virginia in the Craiglist casting notice.

==External Links==
*[http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/tfr/386354384.html Craiglist casting notice]

<br clear="all"/>
{{CharIndex}}

[[Category:Unseen characters]]

Emma

2007-08-25T06:53:29Z

69.84.124.209:

{{Person
| name = Emma
| image =
| age = ?? - ??
| birthday =
| youtube =
| revver =
| myspace =
| actor =
| first = [[A Family Affair]]
| last = [[[A Family Affair]]
| unseen = no
| color = slategray
}}
Emma is Jonas apparent sister who first appears in the video [[A Family Affair]]

==Notes==
*It is not clear if Emma is the same character that was described as V in the Craiglist casting notice.

==External Links==
*[http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/tfr/386354384.html Craiglist casting notice]

<br clear="all"/>
{{CharIndex}}

[[Category:Unseen characters]]

A Family Affair

2007-08-25T06:04:17Z

69.84.124.209:

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 0270
| image =
| caption =
| blogger = Jonas
| date = August 23rd, 2007
| url = {{lg15|338}}
| forumid =
| length = 6:56
| description = Thanks to charles phoenix, cbd, and logbox for solving the puzzle in the LaRezisto video. I decided to stop moping around and go see my family. - Jonas Faction: THE RESISTANCE
| faction = The Resistance
| status = Public Video
| location =
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|bree|daniel|danielbeast|jonas|jonastko}}


| execprod =
| producers =
| pa =
| directors =
| camera =
| vidplay =
| story =
| editor =
| music supervisor =

| song = "Shoot to Kill" by Jared Scharff & the Royals
"Black Top" by Caution Cat

"The Hymn" by the Hymn of One
| cast = {{VidChar|Jonas}}

| Previous = Way of the Gun
| Next =

| PreviousB = Hey Dad
| NextB =
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'''{{PAGENAME}}''' is the two-hundred seventieth video in the lonelygirl15 [[List of Lonelygirl15 videos|video series]]. It is also the fourteenth video of season two.

==Transcript==

''(Jonas is filming himself in his truck.)''

'''Jonas:''' (''Jonas is filming himself in his truck.'') Look, I've been-I've been angry lately. When I get angry, I do stupid things. Like, really stupid things. I still can't believe those fuckers came to my house and taped me yesterday. (''Cuts to filming a semi in the reflection of his side mirror.'') Ever since I saw the video, I just can't -- I can't sleep, I can't focus on anything else, and I --- I started thinking about the way my life was, you know, the way it used to be. A long time ago. (''Cuts to blurred shots out car window.'') Before all of this. Don't get me wrong, I do not trust these Resistance people. Not at all. (''Cuts back to Jonas in the vehicle.'') But, I figure if they can find my parents, then-- (''Cuts to shot of the outside of Jonas' parents house.'') What's the harm in me coming to talk to them, right? Oh, um, oh, also, I just really want to thank everyone out there from the bottom of my heart for helping me crack that -- that code from the Resistance video. I wouldn't be here without you. So, thank you.

'''Jonas:''' ''(The front of Jonas' parent's house is seen.)'' Woo. Ok! Ahem. Ok. Ok. I can do this. Woo. Here we go. ''(Jonas enters through the gate.) I can do this. Just gimme a minute. Fuck it. (''Rings doorbell.'') Ok, there's no going back now. Woo. Oh, man. Maybe they're not -- (''Door opens.'') Hi, dad. It's me, it's Jonas.

'''Mother:''' Sweetie, who's there?

'''Father:''' I think he has the wrong adress.

'''Jonas:''' Mom...

'''Mother:''' Is there -- Can we help you with something?

'''Father:''' Just call the police.

'''Mother:''' Uh, can we help you?

'''Jonas:''' They don't remember me. (Cuts to Jonas inside thier house. His parents are whispering to each other behind him.) Nothing. Uh -- Least they ... They invited me in. But, you know what? Here's the weird thing: my mom has this picture of me from when I was a kid. I know that she knows who I am somewhere, somewhere deep down. I know she knows who I am. Even if she doesn't remember exactly. I can just -- I can just feel it. (''Looks behind at his parents who are hugging each other.'') Ha. Ha. This is -- This is incredible.

'''Mother:''' Jonas?

'''Jonas:''' Yeah?

'''Mother:''' There's someone I'd like you to meet.

'''Jonas:''' Uh, kay.

'''Mother:''' Come on. (''She leads him to a room with music blasting from the inside. She knocks.'') Em? Emma? Can I come in?

'''Jonas:''' It's okay.

'''Mother:''' Can -- Can you just wait here a minute?

'''Jonas:''' Yeah, yeah.

'''Mother:''' Just one moment.

'''Jonas:''' Sure.

'''Mother:''' I'll be right back.

'''Jonas:''' I'll be here.

'''Mother:''' Ha, ha. OK.

(''She enters the room. Jonas takes a glance at the camera. The door opens once more.'')

'''Jonas:''' Hey.

'''Mother:''' You can come in now.

'''Jonas:''' Really?

'''Mother:''' Yeah. She's waiting.

'''Jonas:''' Thank you.

'''Mother:''' You're welcome.

'''Jonas:''' (''Laughs.'') Hi.

'''Jonas:''' Hi. I'm -- I'm Jonas.

'''Emma:''' I'm [[Emma]].

'''Jonas:''' Emma, nice to meet you.

'''Emma:''' Nice to meet you.

'''Jonas:''' So ... What?

'''Emma:''' (''Points to camera.'') Well, why do you have a camera?

'''Jonas:''' It's a long story. Uhm, I'll tell you later.

'''Emma:''' Ok. (''They both laugh.'') Um, this is really weird for me. Um, oh my God. I have a brother. Who's holding a camera.

'''Jonas:''' I know! Well, yeah, I know. It's weird. And... I can put it -- I can put it down, if it makes you more feel more comfortable. I don't hafta. 'Cause I just kinda...

'''Emma:''' No! Actually I think it's actually kinda cool.

'''Jonas:''' Really?

'''Emma:''' Yeah, I do.

'''Jonas:''' Oh, me and you are going to get along.

'''Emma:''' Really? Why do you have that with you all the time?

'''Jonas:''' Kinda. yeah. It's like ... I'm going to put the camera down. I think it's ...

'''Emma:''' O --

'''Jonas:''' I'm going to put it down.

'''Emma:''' Ok.

(''The scene changes from Emma's room to her living room. They are playing charades.'')

'''Jonas:''' So, star! Star!

'''Emma:''' Ok.

'''Jonas:''' What's it -- Star second? Number two? Star dancer? (''Emma makes plane sounds.'') Star planes! Star plane, right?

'''Emma:'''No! (''She makes gun sounds.'')

'''Mother:''' Star guns.

'''Jonas:''' Star guns. Star guns. (''They all laugh.'')

'''Emma:''' No!

'''Jonas:''' Star wars! Star wars!

'''Emma:''' Yes! (''They all laugh. Mother and Jonas high Five.'')

'''Jonas:''' Yes!

'''Emma:''' Woo!

'''Jonas:''' That was -- That was great.

'''Mother:''' Yes. That was great.

'''Emma:''' Ok! Um...

'''Mother:''' Aw, I'm sorry, Emma. It's time for bed. (''Emma sighs. Mother laughs and Jonas groans.'')

'''Emma:''' Right.

'''Jonas:''' Well, it was really, really great meeting you. And I had a lot of fun.

'''Emma:''' I had a lot of fun with you too.

'''Jonas:''' Can I get a high five?

'''Emma:''' Aw, come here. (''They hug.'') Ok.

'''Jonas:''' Thanks.

'''Emma:''' Thanks.

'''Jonas:''' Bye.

'''Emma:''' Bye.

'''Mother:''' Bye, honey. Good night, sweetie.

'''Emma:''' Good night. Love you.

'''Mother:''' Sleep tight.

'''Emma:''' Ok. Bye. Good night.

'''Jonas:''' Good night, Emma.

'''Mother:''' Oh, I forgot to tell you: On Fridays we have guests coming over. It's just somethinh that we do. You're welcome to stay.

'''Jonas:''' Really? Can I?

'''Mother:''' Yeah, I'd really like it if you stayed.

'''Jonas:''' I would love to stay.

'''Mother:''' Good. (''There's a knock at the door and the bell rings.'')

'''Jonas:''' Ah.

'''Mother:''' Oh, yeah! That's -- I'll -- I'll be right back.

'''Jonas:''' Ok, I'm going to go -- I'm going to go get ready.

'''Mother:''' Ok.

'''Jonas:''' What should I wear?

'''Mother:''' Exactly what you have on is perfect.

'''Jonas:''' (''They laugh.'') Ok. Perfect.

(''Jonas walks over to the table and sees candles arranged in an orderly fashoin.'')

'''Mother:''' Hey! Come on in. I'd like you to meet someone. Jonas! These are our friends, Carl and Sonia.

'''Jonas:''' Oh my God. This is a joke.

'''Sonia:''' Hi, Jonas.

'''Jonas:''' Mom! This isn't happening! No! This is not happening! This is not happening.

'''Mother:''' Jonas, what's the matter?

'''Jonas:''' This is not happening, this is not happening, this is not happening.

'''Mother:''' Jonas, please.

'''Jonas:''' Trust me, you gotta believe me that these people are not who they say they are. Listen to me! Listen to me!

'''Mother:''' Jonas! It's about --

'''Jonas:''' I know! No! No! No, I know that you just met me and it's confusing everything. But I know these people. I know them! You gotta believe me.

'''Mother:''' The religion of the Hymn of One is -- is about peace and love. Come sing with us. (''Jonas stares at her before getting up and walking toweards the camera.'') Jonas!

'''Jonas:''' I can't do this. I can't do this.

'''Mother:''' Jonas! Wait.

(''The scene changes to Jonas filming from above the stairs and his parents, Sonia and Carl sit around the table holding hands. The Hym of One melody plays.'')

'''Father:''' Each of us holds a part in the universal song within us. Let us gather hands and reach out and sing out.

'''Mother:''' We gather our hands and sing out.

'''Sonia:''' We gather our hands and we sing out.

'''Carl:''' We gather our hands and ---

(''Jonas makes a creaking sound with his camera. All eyes turn to him from below.)

'''Carl:''' Jonas! Gather our hands and sing out.

'''Mother:''' Jonas!

'''Jonas:''' This is not happening!

'''All:''' Jonas, gather our hands and sing out.

(''The camera zooms closer to the floor and the scene becoms black. The Hymn of One music fades out.'')

==Notes==
*Jonas's parents disappeared in 2000. Jonas's sister, despite acting like a child, is clearly no younger than 13. The reason why she and Jonas never knew each other is not addressed in this video. She can't be any older than 7 for Jonas to have presumably not known of her, an age totally ruled out by the actress's appearance (though not necessarily her behavior, and the fact she even has a bed time.) It suggests that since such a 6 or 7 year old actress would be difficult to fit into the current storyline, which perhaps needs her to be older to work, so the Creators took on a plot hole instead of working around it.

Emma

2007-08-25T06:03:28Z

69.84.124.209:

Emma is Jonas apparent sister who first appears in the video [[A Family Affair]]

Emma

2007-08-25T06:02:31Z

69.84.124.209:

Emma is Jonas apparent sister who first appears in the video [[ ]]

Following the Clues

2007-07-25T16:11:34Z

69.84.124.209:

==Grand son==

Scott mentioned an old lady who had a grand son.

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony

2007-07-09T00:48:38Z

69.84.124.209: /* Browser neutrality or Official Browser */

[[Image:GustaveCailbotteThe Balcony1880-Cropped.jpg|left|thumb|150px|A couple of [[LGPedia]] admins ([[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] & [[User:Psmith|Psmith]]) take a breather to admire the view from [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]

[[Image:Lucy's_Balcony.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Your friendly [[LGPedia]] admins, [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]], and [[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] enjoy an unseasonably warm {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} afternoon on [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]

Welcome to '''Lucy's Balcony''', a place to ask questions or discuss general issues about the [[LGPedia]]. This page is intended to be a place where admins and active editors can discuss ongoing issues, ideas and concerns. To start a new thread, [http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=LGPedia:Lucy%27s_Balcony&action=edit&section=new click here]. Please remember to sign your posts by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> at the end.

For old or inactive conversations, visit [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/archive|Lucy's archive]].

[[Image:snowwhitebalcony.jpg|right|thumb|150px|[[User:Zoey|Zoey]], one of your [[LGPedia]] admins, frolics with the doves on [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]

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__TOC__

== Unused images ==

In cleaning up location pages I've orphaned a rather large number of images. The location pages had an unfortunate tendency to just include random screen-shots from videos that had absolutely nothing to do with the location. I've been cutting them out. Do we want to have an unused image assessment of some sort? Use the good ones, and just delete the lousy ones? We really don't need to keep hundreds of unused images laying around. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 11:06, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
:Well I think that you should delete the unused images, that don't look like they can be useful, to add to later articles or updates. Several times I went to an image category to find an image for an article. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 17:40, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

== General deletion/inclusion guidelines ==

As a result of the discussion on [[Template talk:HoverTOC]] and also somewhat on [[LGPedia:Tasks/Completed#LordGreystoke422's videos]], I think it's high time we figured out exactly what our deletion and inclusion policy is here. Currently our [[LGPedia:Deletion Policy|deletion policy]] is rather minimal and very much open to interpretation. There was a discussion about this on [[LGPedia talk:Deletion Policy]] quite a while back, and most of that is probably still applicable, but I have a feeling people will have some new ideas as well. I think the best way to handle the inclusion aspect of this would be to create a list of criteria that are necessary in order for an article to be included here. What we don't want to do is turn into Wikipedia here, but having some generals guidelines wouldn't be a bad idea. Another issue is deletion, which I suppose is very related to inclusion. I guess we could also have a list of reasons for why an article should be deleted, and maybe another list for reasons that ''aren't'' enough for an article to be deleted. Really, this is very open-ended, but I would ''love'' if people would get involved in the discussion here. To put in my two cents, I think a good first point for inclusion would be that it is related to Lonelygirl15 in some way. How closely related it would have to be is a point of discussion I guess, but that's a start at least.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 17:39, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
:Okay, for me, I think that with fan videos, you should kind of look at what the purpose of the videos is, how they tell their stories, and what kind of stories are being told. Like I think videos that seem to be "going somewhere"... like distinctive stories with distinctive arcs may be better with just large summary pages that people can read. It makes it much easier to follow those kinds of stories when things are all laid out in one place. Like, LG422... and GC and such. Those are the kinds of stories I mean. However, with things like say... aaronbeast, where they're kind of... response videos.. or videos that don't really follow a specific story but kind of adapt based on what's going on in the [[Breeniverse]], those should get their own video pages. That's how ''I'' would view it... although I'm not entirely sure that made sense... hopefully it did. :P I'd love people's thoughts please!! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:31, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

:I've gotta say, while I did negatively notice this before, when I was looking through the templates to catalogue them, I was once more reminded how many fan-created series have pages here.
:That is not bad per se, but, without going to sound arrogant or anything...many of them are just not noteworthy.
:Example - chosen randomly, not a personal attack: [[Linsy]]. We have a page on her, three video pages with transcripts, and even [[:Category:Linsybeast's blogs]]. And you know what? I have no idea who the fuck that is.
:Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against fanfic, fan participation, or anything. But I think we should set a certain standard of "noteworthyness" before listing people here, at least on more than one general site. Stuff like HSAO gained a lot of user traction, and Dr. Immant's videos apparently were quite well done and well-received by fans (never seen them) - but we don't have to have entire catalogues of every video every LG15 fan once did, just because they pretend to be in the Breeniverse.
:Another thing is useless occupation of space; example: There is a hardcoded sidebar-template for "GuillotineCalamity", which means that sidebar is fixed for that video series and cannot be used by anyone else. What's it used for? Two pages that contain barely more than "Transcript incomplete". Check out Category:GuillotineCalamity - the five season subcategories are all empty, and GC Seasons does nothing more than link to these empty categories. Apparently, at least according to the main page on that topic, there actually were quite a lot of these videos. Where are they? Why do we need five categories and a sidebar, if all we have on that series other than the main page are two video pages with no information?
:Like I said, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against fan fiction. But what we're currently doing is like accepting every little essay a grade schooler once wrote into the Great Library of Alexandria. We are flooded with pages that, quite frankly, don't interest anyone but the authors...and maybe two or three other people.
:I don't know exactly ''how'' to solve this problem, maybe by requiring a certain amount of hits on a single page, before branching out is allowed or something, but I think the overall quality of this encyclopedia suffers from this. While fan fiction most definitely is an important part of LG15, this is the official encyclopedia on the official site, sometimes visited by The Creators themselves through their Admin account - I think it should focus on important and official stuff first, and ''then'' on fan faction and trivia. Right now, we have some important core pages, like List of Videos, the video pages themselves, List of Characters and the character pages, and a whole lot of crap that is fun to have, but takes focus away from the efficient administration and care for the important pages. Do we really need a page on [[H.P. Lovecraft]]? As far as I'm concerned he has had ''no'' major influence on the canon. He has enjoyed, ''perhaps'' some passing references, but ''that's nothing special''. Hundreds of videos everyday do that. But they link to Wikipedia instead of writing their own page about him. [[Dava Sobel]]. wtf do we need that for? It's a one line note, ''and'' it's been said on the video page for [[Proving Longitude Wrong]]. There is no reason to have that page.
:Okay, I think you got my point here - it's late, so I'll move on.

:Deletions. Yeeees. Zoey has ignored me for the past few days, so I guess it's evident I have quite some strong feelings on this topic. Most of them I have already posted, so let me just sum things up quickly:
:I have nothing against deletions as such. In fact, I myself have given good reason for the deletion of both Template:PageHeader and [[Template:Clr]], after this whole orgy was over - see the respective talk pages. What I was, and still am, annoyed by is the notion that a template should be deleted just because it's currently unused. A template is a convenience thing. A tool. Do you throw away your hammer just because you don't use it at a given point in time, and then get it back out when you actually use it? I think not.
:If a template is useless and will most likely ''never'' be used, fine - kill it. But if it's a useful little thing, why delete it, just because ''right now'' nobody is using it?

:The discussion also revealed a kind of weird view of deletion around here - apparently, it means nothing. The stance here seems to be to delete something if it's currently unwanted, and to restore it if it's wanted again. And that just takes the use and meaning out of it. A deletion should be a strong statement that the page is not wanted anymore. Instead, it's being used for a crude form of giving the appearance of order - similar to a child that gets the order to clean his room, only to shovel all his toys under his bed. Sure, it looks clean, but as soon as he'll need the toys, he'll get them back out.
:I am not against restoring, I said that. But it should be a tool rectify a mistake - not an action as common as opening a page.
:In fact, this stance is probably connected to what I mentioned above - ''we have too much crap lying around here''. If pages were reduced to essentials and semi-essentials, it'd be a much harder decision to delete anything, simply because it'd have a major impact on the information presented. Instead, an admin can delete half the pages here without fear to destroy anything important - 90% of all users would still find exactly what they want.

:It's two o' clock in the morning, so I'll stop here. I know I didn't present any solutions, but maybe it's better to hear your reactions first anyway. Don't be shy, and don't be afraid to use whatever language you might find necessary. Just remember that we're talking about administrative issues here, not friendship or community. This is not, at least from my point of view, about whether or not somebody's feelings might get hurt if his pages are deleted (be it "my" templates, [[Linsy]]'s blogs, or carefully crafted pages over totally insignifcant details), but about how to get a certain sense of order in this thing, and setting a certain standard of quality.
:You cannot accept everything if you want the average to be good. The question is just if you have the balls to turn people down if it's necessary.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:09, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
:<small>*looks up* ...oops. [[Template:Quote]], if anyone is crazy enough to reply.

:BAH, Zoey, out of my line of post! '''[Editing conflict resolved]'''</small>

::@Zoey: Hmm, that's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it would really work. I don't think it would be too fair to say that a certain series shouldn't have video pages just because it has the "story" format that you're talking about. Similarly, there's no reason that a rather minor fanfic video should get its own video page just because it doesn't have that story format. I think the criteria should be something like popularity, connection to LG15, probability of canonicity, etc.

::@Renegade: I think you raise some good issues. Firstly, I agree with you about the problem with notability of videos. I think when the whole [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girl]] thing was going on, every possible "new girl" was given a page, and all of their videos started to be transcribed. This has created a lot of probably-less-than-notable fan blog pages that people may not be that interested in. I think a good solution might be to figure out which ones are actually notable (perhaps page-view count as you suggest or maybe something else), and then determine if we need the transcript pages or just one page for the character that could give a summary of their blogs and general information on them. That way, the notability or important of a fan series is reflected here by how much space, time, effort, etc. we put into it. Again, it might be hard to determine the "notability" factor, but I'm sure we could come up with some method to do so.

::As far as the waste of space, the reason that happens (at least from my point of view) is that we hate to undo someone's work because we either 1) don't want to hurt their feelings (a lame reason really) or 2) think they might come back to it at some point in the future. It's a little similar to the templates you created, Renegade. We see that someone has created something which looks like it could be useful, but isn't really being used yet. We're skeptical about deleting it, and yet it seems like it would help clean up if we do. I think just better communication all around would help solve this problem. We shouldn't be afraid to ask people why they created a certain page, template, category, etc. as long as it's done in a considerate way. If there is a genuine good use for what they have done, then they can explain it. If it was done on a whim or we decide it's not necessary or there's a better way to organize the information, then it can be deleted or reorganized.

::And really, I agree with you about the deleting/restoring thing. What I was trying to say before is that ''if'' a page gets deleted because no one sees a good use for it, then we can ''fix'' the mistake of deleting it by restoring it. I was trying to point that that deletion isn't that big of a deal because it can be undone. Of course, if we think we're going to be restoring something later, then of course we shouldn't delete it. I hope this makes sense, and I'll try to explain better if it doesn't.

::One final word. You're right that we're not talking about friendship or community here, and I agree that people should be free to express their opinions openly. Sometimes, though, this can turn into a war between people rather than between those people's ideas. I encourage everyone to not take anything personally here. As I'm so fond of saying, we're all working toward the same goal, so please remember that and never assume that someone is attacking you personally. Any and all personal attacks here will '''not''' be tolerated, so let's try to not make that an issue. That said, let's continue to have a helpful discussion that will make this place better for everyone.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 12:22, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Okay I just wanted to say, my idea was for how to handle videos once they're already gotten the stamp of approval to be on the page, based on whatever criteria we set. Because like Renegade said, the GC videos and the CIW vidoes all have video pages, but really arent used. So um, if based on our criteria to get something on the site in the first place, they're still good, I think we should look at the things I mentioned before, and perhaps decide that they don't need video pages, only summary pages (like LG422 videos as well). As far as WHAT those criteria are, I don't really know...

And Renegade, I haven't been ignoring you. I've been reading everything you say very closely. The strength of my opinions on these topics, however, doesn't even come close to yours, so it is difficult for me to give you worthy responses. But I am reading what you are saying and just... trying to take a step back and examine all viewpoints before I give any input on what I think should be done for what things. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:46, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Pinging Zoey with 478 bytes of data:
Reply from Zoey: bytes=1006 time=563040000ms TTL=255

:hehehe :D
:Nah, seriously...thanks for replying at all. Although I now feel like a fundamentalist radical on the topic of deletions, it at least gives me the hope I didn't piss you off for good. I do see some irony in the fact that Template:PageHeader still exists, though, given that even I am for its deletion now. :D
:Aaaand that brings us back on topic (ain't I good?): It's dead. Nobody wants to talk, but us. So I propose we do the stuff suggested below, to make people aware of what we're discussing above. Sound like a plan? Good. I'll try to code/design something and ... '''Update:''' I did code something, behold it on [[LGPedia:Participate]]. But now my favorite admistress (or one the other demi-gods) would have to go to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] and add <nowiki>{{LGPedia:Participate}}</nowiki>, as I lack the power to do that. Make sure to add it outside of a block of text though (first thing on the page at best) as everything else fucks it up. Took me three revisions to figure out the template was fine, and the the positioning was to blame. -_- And adjust the top-margin when it's added, I had to guess for now.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:35, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

:: It's looking really good. I think [[:Category:Featured article nominees|featured articles]] and [[:Category:Proposed Merges|proposed merges]] should also be added... and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking of ATM. I'm assuming it doesn't update automatically though? So people will have to really be on top of it. Oh, and also, I think the text under Participate should be bigger... for those of us who are blind *cough*. I'll see about adding it to recent changes, but I generally fail at that kind of stuff anyways, so it might be better to wait for another admin to come along and make it look nice...
::And um, yeah, I'm going to go delete PageHeader now :D --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:12, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

:The fact that "Renegade" does not know "who the fuck" [[Linsy]] is, is pretty unimpressive criteria for deleting anything a fan has taken the trouble to add to LGPedia. I think the opinion as expressed here is incredibly arrogant and hostile to community (comments such as "grade school", "crap", "having balls" etc. do not inspire confidence). My personal opinion is that unless you are running into some hard technical issue such as exceeding storage space (which is usually absurd these days, but possible), there is very little justification to delete contributions made by occasional posters or those outside the core LGPedia group. That is the opposite of what you should be doing. Add structure? Absolutely. Move really random/disconnected items off to an orphanage for lost pages (or equivalent) sure. But don't delete, and leave a link (comprehensive note on a talk page or comment in history or *some* obvious path to finding the moved article without having to contact a staff member - I'm not sure what the best solution there is).

:There are growing and independent circles of fans, who are every bit as invested and involved in their segments of the Lonelygirl15 community as the few LGPedia mainstays, and the vitality of this effort depends on the confidence that time invested in posting here will not be discarded by someone with a different idea of what is important. That kind of editing would be disrespectful and foolish. My contributions here have been minor, and may not even fit in with your concepts (I don't know), but if I put something here and linked to it from off site, and came back later to check for updates, etc. and found my work silently deleted, I would be angry. That kind of move should be made with the utmost care and respect.

:So address the issues, but find a better solution than deleting even relatively trivial contributions from fans. You never know when they will come back to expand on or edit their work, possibly becoming more significant contributors later. You folks have a great thing going here - there is no need to alienate the occasional contributors. First contributions take the most effort sometimes, and should not be undervalued.

:Maybe a better editorial concept is to think of a core set of pages (a trunk and main branches) that are tightly controlled, surrounded by a cloud of satellite pages (twigs and leaves) that are a bit wild and unruly, with a few orphans that fall to the ground, but are still down there somewhere. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 08:15, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

::So wait, let me get this straight...you wait for eight days, to attack a sentence in a post that's almost three weeks old, over a fact that was clearly introduced with "chosen randomly, not a personal attack"?
::Riiiiiight. Were you bored, or just in an aggressive mood?
::Everybody else got fine that it was an example to illustrate the issues with noteworthyness we have here, and the fact that you can only fight it by dragging it down to a personal level and attacking my credibility just proves to me that I raised an undisputable point; you may not like it, but fact is: In all probability, said "Linsy" adds nothing to the Breeniverse.
::Yes, it is nice to have devoted fans, and yes, the fan interaction in and with this series is great - but that does not automatically mean that the official encyclopedia has to include every single video by every user that slightly, remotely connects to the topic. I have nothing against including notable fans on LGPedia. If a video series gained a big viewership, like the several Cassies or HSAO, or some of the OpAphid analyzation vids, fine, include them - they ''are'' important to the community around the series, and, as such, important to the series.

::But, no matter how arrogant you'd like to interpret this, ''reality'' is: The latest vid of that "Linsy" person has 71 views. It has a page with nothing but a sidebar, and it's a shaky video of her or her character's birthday "partay". Okay. Typical YouTube content. Fine to be online. But why the hell does it have to be on LGPedia? Is it of great importance to the canon? Nope, she's not canon. Is it of great importance to the fandom? Nope, it's had 70 views before I just clicked. Is it an exceptionally well-crafted page? Nope, it's one line with a sidebar.
::She may be a nice person, and her videos might even be funny - but, as of this moment, there is nothing exceptionally significant or notable about them that'd require us to list it here. And the positive effect of having ''everything'' listed gets outweighted by the negative effect of having ''almost everything'' look like crap.

::Even if you wish to list each and every tiny little fanvid, what's the use of listing them if their page says nothing? Let's say we let that page stay as it is. What is the great advantage gained by users through this? Is it that, of nineteen videos existing, only four are listed? Or that, of these four, one fourth doesn't have a transcript? Or that they can read a transcript at all?
::Who is, realistically, going to read a transcript of some girl's fanfic blog?

::You can call me arrogant all you want, whoever lives in reality sees I'm not trying to belittle that girl, but to be realistic. It is great she's active in the community, and it takes a great deal of courage to tape a video and put it out there for everyone to see. But the fact that she's a fan with a video alone doesn't make her or her video significant enough to be put up on the official site next to the information on official videos.
::We should focus on information important to the Breeniverse and the fandom. And some girl's birthday party, as nice as she may be, just has nothing to do with. The maximum effect that page will have on unintroduced users will be that they wonder how she is tied into the series, and get all confused.
::'''Added to reply to addition''':
::That may be a nice idea, but the problem is, would care for the twigs and orphans. We'd have hundreds of unmaintained pages laying around, building a "cloud of crap", so to speak, around the important entries. If someone maintained these pages, it'd be a different issue...but people won't. You can hope and dream all you want, a "lowly" fanfic-video-page just isn't gonna get the same editorial attention as an official video page.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 09:12, 24 June 2007 (CDT) '''[Editing conflict resolved]'''
::<small>And for the record, thanks to the new sidebar on recent changes, silent deletions are almost impossible now - unless someone disregards all procedures.</small>

::: This was the most idiotic dispute in the history of the Wiki. Just saying! --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 15:09, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

== "Have your say" page ==

I just had a read of the problems mentioned above (deletions etc.) and thought of an idea that might be of help to both this and other problems that arise from "normal users" scanning the last 50 recent changes to see what has been happening (thereby missing out when there have been lots more changes since they last logged in). I would propose having a LGPedia:Have your say page listed on the right hand column, perhaps under the "Recent changes". This page would then have links to all current discussions and votes that users may be unaware are going on at all, e.g. pic/caption votes, redesign comments, delete-tagged pages. This may help getting more people involved in decisions than at present (because they wouldn't necessarily be logging in as frequently as an admin, nor would they be visiting the various log pages that we know about). In addition, the delete period between tagging and deleting should be increased to 2 weeks (except where an admin is just rectifying a mistake).

This may not completely avoid the situation with deleted templates mentioned above, but if in addition we admins think twice in future before nominating something unused for deletion than that's probably all else we can do.

Having said that, as both [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] and [[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] have respectively pointed out, it is neither a big deal leaving pages that are unused alone until they become useful again, nor accepting that some pages which are deleted through lack of feedback can be restored afterwards. Let us not get heated about this either way. [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 15:27, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

:I like that idea very much, Psmith. Renegade proposed something similar on [[Template talk:HoverTOC]], but I think this would work better. I think people see that column a lot and "Have your say" if a very self-explanatory phrase that should hopefully draw people in to have their say about things. We would have to make sure to keep this page updated or it wouldn't work, but if we can do that, then I think it should work great. As far as extending the deletion period from 1 week to 2, it really doesn't make a difference to me. If people think this would help solve problems with deletions, then I'm all for it. I'd love to hear others' opinions on both of these issues, so please feel free to pipe in with your support or objections.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 12:22, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
::[[Special:Recentchanges|BEHOLD]] what Zoey and I crafted together!
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:07, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
::::Wow! [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 12:45, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

== Addition of KateModern to LGPedia ==

Hi everyone. [[Miles Beckett|Miles]] has requested via email that we make some changes to LGPedia to prepare for [[KateModern]]'s premiere later this month. The details are included in his email which I have included here:

{{quote|Miles|
As you know, KateModern is launching soon and I'd like to give you some information so you can revise the LGPedia accordingly. In our minds, the framework is as follows:

#LG15 is the Universe that includes lonelygirl15 and KateModern and future shows (The LGPedia should track the entire LG15 Universe)
#lonelygirl15 is the US show with the characters we all know and love
#KateModern is the UK show with a new cast and plot

We are redesigning the website to make the interface cleaner and also to display both shows. We're going to provide a link on the lonelygirl15 show page that goes to a lonelygirl15 "portal" in the LGPedia that would look similar to the current homepage of LGPedia. Similarly, we'll provide a link on the KateModern show page that goes to a KateModern "portal in the LGPedia that would look similar to the current homepage but would be all KateModern specific stuff. LGPedia would therefore need a new homepage that would provide links to these sub-page portals for each show, and a lot of the information that is already on the homepage since alot of this is more about the LG15 Universe.

Does that makes sense? I wanted to give you a heads up since KateModern launches in mid-July and we'd love if LGPedia was up to date by then. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks!

Miles}}

My own thoughts on the issue are to not do anything too drastic until we reach a decision about what should be done and it all seems feasible. It looks like we'll need to create [[Portal:Lonelygirl15]] and [[Portal:KateModern]] (or names similar to these) as well as resurrect [[Main Page/redesign]]. I think a good goal would be to try to get this all done within about a week or so that it will be ready for the launch of KateModern. If anyone has any questions for Miles, feel free to post them here or on [[User talk:Jonpro|my talk page]] and I can send them on to him.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 14:54, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

:Hm, wow, this is definately a massive project. Maybe it would be best to have a ''really'' basic homepage that says something like "Chose Your Destination" with links to both of the girls and that be it? Or something very similarly simple. Maybe we can just keep the LG frontpage the same and make a copycat for KM with the links and stuff she needs. I'm kind of confused about how to determine what would be used for both though. I mean, it's not going to take place in [[Bree's bedroom]] or anything, is it? Where do we draw the line for what is LG15 and what is LG15 Universe? Hm, also I guess we could make like.. top categories to help make things easier to classify? Like a Category:KateModern, Category:Lonelygirl15, and a Category:Breeniverse (that contains stuff for both worlds?). I don't know, like I said, I'm having a hard time comprehending just how much of an overlap there will be, so its kind of hard to figure where to draw the line, but those were my intial thoughts at the idea. Let me know what you think...! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:03, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

:::::Zoey I totally agree - I think we should have a splash page, if you will, for the 'pedias. On the front page can be something simple, Kate -enter- and LG -enter- or however you want to present them. This page can be the "fancy" page, if we want, and it can look really good, and different from the 'pedia now if we're looking for something fresh. But the pedia works REALLY well set up as it is. I don't think changing it is a good idea. Not overall. As for the sharing sections, I think that we should just stick to having articles that are accessible to both pedias through common links. Don't get into three different pedias. Asking for trouble, that. Just stick to two pedias outlining two storylines, and the common lines between them will take care of themselves. [[User:MarlaSinger|MarlaSinger]] 17:42, 6 July 2007 (EST)

::I was wondering the same thing about the amount of overlap. If there really isn't going to be any interaction between the series, it makes sense to basically have two sections to the site, kind of like you're saying. I went ahead and sent Miles an email asking him how much overlap there will be, so I'll be sure to let you guys know what he says when I get a response.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 18:46, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

:::Okay, I got an email back from Miles and here it is (I think it's easier to just copy/paste than try to explain it in my own words):

:::{{quote|Miles|The characters "can" communicate with each other but it remains to be seen how much they will. Things like the Order, the Hymn of One, and all of that larger mythology will be in both series to varying degrees. Think of it like, the Order, HOO, the stuff about the blood, the girls, the Elders, etc. etc. are all the same across both shows. But, the characters and plot are different. Happy to answer any other questions. Thanks!}}

:::So I don't think we should try to "split up" LGPedia into two sections or anything, but I think we should definitely do something with the categories like Zoey suggested. Maybe we can go through and add "Category:Lonelygirl15" to at least some (maybe all?) of the pages here, and then start adding "Category:KateModern" to the pages that we create for the KM characters, locations, videos, etc. Other than that, it'd probably be a good idea to focus our energy on the "portal" pages and the Main Page. I think we have a lot of options for the Main Page, and it'd be nice to see something more than just a link to the two "portal" pages. A few ideas I can think of are:
:::#Split the Main Page right down the middle with LG15 stuff on one side and KM stuff on the other side.
:::#Keep the page looking a lot like we have it but add links to KM things as they happen. In other words, update the video list with videos from both series, add links to KM pages to the links list on the left, etc.
:::#Remove all "series-specific" information from the Main Page and put it in the lonelygirl15 portal page. The Main Page would then be about the LG15 universe in general so LG and KM followers could both find only useful information.
:::Now, for all of these, there would still exist the "portal" pages to get more detailed pages about the specific series. I really don't know what's best, and I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts about these ideas and/or other ideas for what to do here. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:00, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
:I don't like the "splitting" simply becuase that'd be a little confusing, IMO. Again, I'm relatively new to wiki-editing, so if what I'm saying doesn't make sense, forgive me. But since it appears that the two shows will interact in ''some'' way, it seems reasonable for now if we simply keep the main page "as is" for the most part but under the "Breenverse" section we simply create two sections: "Lonelygirl15" & "KateModern." (everything currently under there would fit nicely into "Lonelygirl15"). With that huge list redesigned into a list of two, we'd have room to add any KM characters under the current LG15 characters (possibly with a different color to their names, i.e. not blue). Behind the Scenes, Site Features, and Unofficial Spinoffs would remain the same, I imagine. What'd be really cool if we could have the "LG15" in the corner to change to KM whenever you landed on a KM page (again, not sure if that's even doable, but I think itd be cool). Those are my thoughts for now . . . hope what I said didn't sound crazy. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 09:30, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
::Hmm... I was reading through this and I got an idea about splitting up the homepage but keeping all the stuff currently on it. Here's my idea: Move the "latest developments to the left side in between the ENCYCLOPEDIA (which we could change to read "LONELYGIRL15") and the Featured Article. Then, on the right create a "clone" of the left dealing with Kate Modern... I dunno. What do you guys think? -- [[User:FH14|FH14]] 00:20 6 July 2007 (EST)

::: I love this big picture, how do we organize everything sort of stuff. Almost makes me wish I were still around more, but I've been having so much fun at the {{Wikipedia|User:JayHenry|mothership}} that I rarely make it back here (and if any of you are ever looking to get more involved at the mothership, let me know, I'd love to help you find a niche!) So, as I understand it, KateModern will exist entirely within the same [[Breeniverse|universe]] but, just like real teenagers in L.A. and London, they will have little interaction, their lives will not affect each other much -- just like if a guy named Wixy gets some girl pregnant in London; Jay's life in, uh..., Miami, will be unaffected. Similarly, Wixy's bedroom ''exists'' in my universe, but it has no relevance to me whatsoever.
::: I think ideally you'd have Kate and LG15 latest video sections both on the main page somehow. For an idea like the portals, it might be best to have a [[template:Latest LG15 updates]] and a [[template:Latest KM updates]] and have both templates be transcluded on the Main Page and then one each on [[Portal:Lonelygirl15]] and [[Portal:KateModern]] respectively. That'd reduce the amount of redundant work, but I'll admit, I don't have a good idea for how to design the main page with two latest video sections.
::: Just some suggestions as I won't be around to implement any of it. I hope KateModern is a success, it'd be nice to have my interest restored, especially now that {{Wikipedia|Prom_Queen_(internet_series)|Prom Queen}} is over. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 00:09, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
::::Ugh, all you admins are abandoning me! I feel so alooonee </emo>. Haha well, either way it's nice to hear from you Jay... hopefully you'll be around a bit more... maybe? Your ideas sound good.. I'm just so confused about how to impliment them. I guess I'm still trying to wrap my head fully around what we're trying to do, so it's hard to figure out the best way to do it. It sounds like you've got some good ideas though (< To Everyone) and I'm anxious to see what kinds of things people come up with. As for right now, I think I'll just keep reading everyone's ideas until something sparks me.. or someone else, you know, figures it all out. I also made a post on the LGBlogspot directing people to this page, so who knows, we may get some new, fresh contributions soon! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:37, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

:::::I like Jay's idea about using the templates. I will ''try'' to get that done later today if no one else gets it done first, but no promises. I'll also try to get some sample portal pages up today or tomorrow so that we have something to start with and maybe then it will be easier to work from there. As an aside, I really do feel bad about not being here as much, Zoey, but the demands of life are simply making it difficult. I think you're doing a great job considering we all did pretty much abandon you. Oh, by the way, has anyone heard from OiC recently?--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 07:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

::::::Lol yeah, I know. Stupid "real life" taking all the fellow admins away from me! Hrmph! OIC was in the IRC chat the other night, she said she'd be on again soon.. but I haven't seen her since! And thanks! :) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 19:21, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

:I think we should wait and see how KateModern is received before doing much - if it flops in the first week, there's no use redesigning half the encyclopedia.
:After all, LG15 was kind of new back in the day - by now, KateModern is just another internet series.
:(And given how the Creators failed to vary the plot arcs within ''one'' series already, I can very well see how people might recognize this as "Lonelygirl15 UK" and get bored because it's the same thing with different characters.)

:So, as said, I advocate waiting.
:But if you ''don't'' want to wait, I suggest replacing the "Encyclopedia" box on the main page with one LG15-specific and one KM-specific block, while updating the video-list with vids of both series.
:Splitting the page in half by series would look terrible.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 09:09, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

:Lets see, they are in the same universe, lets see, fan fic is gonna blur the line faster then u can say wiki --[[User:Brooklynxman|Bxman]] 11:36, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
::True. The acrowleyorder series has already made references to KateModern, and I'm sure about 50 will follow. Maybe it would be best to divide into three sections instead of Two (One being fanfiction) --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:23 6 July 2007 (EST)

Simple solution:
1) on the left you have character pixs: the new page would have character pixs for both shows
2) below that you have Breeniverse which would stay the same but....
3) each of the items such as Characters would have an LG page and a Kate page (eg characters -lg15 and characters kate, locations-lg15, locations-kate etc (those can grow organically as needed as did the original pedia)
4) then on the right under latest developments videos for both series would be posted as they occur
--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 12:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

:One thing I just realized: We can't include the KateModern Videos on the same list as the LG15 videos because of the way the number formatting works. KateModern Episode #1 would show up as LG15 Episode #230 or something. I like the merging of the "latest updates" but we should have separate video lists to avoid this problem (ex: two links at the bottom of the latest updates: List of all LG15 videos... and List of all KM videos... --[[User:FH14|FH14]]
::Well, they say that the KM vids will be appearing on the LG15 homepage (after appearing on Bebo). If they happen to end up in the same official videolist, then I guess that won't be a problem, FH14. But if they end up elsewhere? Oy. Is there a chance to simply keep the LG video count going, but have the KM videos under KM1, KM2, etc? Again, not sure if that's even wiki-possible, but that's my spiel. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:16, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

::I did some concepting, please state your opinion on [http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainpageredesignok8.png this], everybody.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:32, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
:::I like it. although the Taylor overlap may be a problem. maybe if the info/video boxes were a bit wider? That would also allow more room if there are more than three main characters in KateModern. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:10 6 July 2007 (EST)
::::That layout is 850px wide. We need around 155px for the menu, which brings us to 1005px. That's the very, very maximum for a 1024x768px resolution. So I fear wider is not an option.
::::In a worst case scenario, we'll have to split and wrap the the image rows in the middle of the layout.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:16, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
:::::Are you sure? The current homepage looks wider than the design to me. Of course, when it comes to pixels I'm clueless, so I may be wrong [[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:23 6 July 2007 (EST)
:::Renegade, can you do a design where the Encyclopedia box is split in half horizontally and the rest of the page looking relatively the same? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 15:45, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Ok I know i haven't been around very much lately, but I'm still as opinionated as ever. I think Miles has totally the wrong idea how to structure the website. I think the loneleygirl15, should remain the site for the story about Bree , Katemodern should have It's own domain name. what we are currently calling the Breeniverse needs to have a name that isn't Breecentric, but encompasses KateModern the Order the HymnOfone etc. for the sake of clarity for the moment I'll call it the Dendraverse, though it probnably won't be called that. so this is how I would structure it Dendarverse.com will have have all the meta info about the Dandraverse and be a portal to lonleygirl15.com katemodern.co.uk (or whatever it's called), Hymnofone.org, and any other website within the Dendraverse. it will also have contain the dendraforums which will contain the currentl lonleygirl15 forums, the KateModern, forums. the Dendraverse Fanfic forums, etc. and it will also contain. it will also contain the Dendrapedia. The dendrapedia use the current Wkik, but will have a new main page which acts as a portal into will have a new main page which is a portal into LGpedia, KMPedia, FanficPedia, etc, the current main page will be moved to a new article called LGpedia, and function much the same way as the Aphidpedia page currently does. Similarly we will have an article called KMPedia that looks much the same but used a perhaps a Red color scheme. Except for the Home page all the domain names will operate synonymously using the same Forum and WiKi directories. I hope I explained myself clearly, the idea is pretty straightforward but I'm not sure I communicated it well. I do think this is the most logical way to go. --[[User:Misty|misty]] 02:15, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
:I'm sorry, Misty, but I disagree. I think that if there were two separate websites - lonelygirl15.com and katemodern.com - it would ruin the show. Some (but only a few) fans don't even know about KateModern yet, and if they had to go to katemodern.com to view it, then they would not know! And they would be missing out on a whole "sequel"-ish spin-off to lonelygirl15. And what you said about the Breeniverse not being so Bree-esque, I can understand that. However, I think Miles gave us basically a solution to that problem. Instead of the Breeniverse, we call it the LG15 Universe. Then again, that's still lonelygirl15-esque, but you get the point. We could do the Orderverse, the Hymn of One Universe... I don't know. It's the only way that seems possible to me. Making another whole website, katemodern.com, just seems to complicated to me. Plus making a whole wiki, KMPedia... it would seem so small compared to the LGPedia. My suggestion is that the '''Main Page would be very simple. The centered words "Choose Your Destination" with two arrows pointing to a picture of Bree, with the words "lonelygirl15" under it, and a picture of Kate, with the words "KateModern" under it.''' Then, the picture of Bree would redirect to our current Main Page. The picture of Kate would redirect to a KateModern-esque Main Page. Sure, we'd have to change a few things, like maybe the name of Lucy's Balcony, or the link to the List of Videos on the side. We could have a link to the List of LG15 Videos, and a link to the List of KM Videos. It just seems like lonelygirl15.com is where lonelygirl15 was born, and it should be where KateModern was born. Miles even said that they were in the process of redesigning lonelygirl15.com so that you can view both shows on it. I say we keep the name LGPedia, unless something major comes up, like a complete separation of lonelygirl15 from KateModern. [[User:72.77.92.54|72.77.92.54]] 09:40, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

::Obviousley you didn't understand what I was saying because you are suggesting the same structure. you are just saying that it shoulod all be under the name all under the LG15 name, and that's the point I was objecting to. If you read what i said I wasn't suggesting creating other websites or a new WKI. I was sugessting Creating New domain names. a website can have 1000 domain names if you want. and KMPedia isn't a separate wiki is just a separate article. what I'm saying is that CONCEPTUALLY KM doesn't belong Under LG15, but KM and LG15 belong side by side Under the umbrella of a greater Universe. I called it the the Dendraverse in my example, but could have a different name. but it shouldn't be called the the LG15 universe, because LG15 is Bree eventually Bree will be gone, and if you try to separate LG15 from Bree then it has no meaning. so calling it the LG15 universe makes as much sense as calling it the CMJ24 universe. techincally what i propsed just means moving a few pages and creating a few links. -03:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

For whomever is desiging the pages, we now have a few images of Kate, thanks to her Bebo profile.
[[Image:KateModern Cast.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern1.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern2.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern3.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern4.jpg|thumb|110px|left]]{{Clr}}
--[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:48, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I have to confess i haven't read all the comments her yet, but it seems the easiest and most efficient way to implement miles' directive is to create a main page for kate modern. the main page for the lgpedia and kmpedia (or whatever it gets called) should both include a prominent link to the other. lonelygirl15.com/kmpedia (or whatever its called) she be made sure to redirect (by their webguys, this isn't a wiki thing) to the kmpedia main page. the kmpedia page is not going to have a lot to start, but i would get it in place and go from there. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 00:12, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

: ok, whizzes get to work?!! i think the red color of kate's bebo profile should be used in instead of the lgpedia blue? http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Kmpedia --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 00:26, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
::I played with the new page just a bit, as I know little-to-nothing about the wikicodes and didn't want to mess everything up --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
:::Okay, I took it a little further. We clearly need someone to get the colors looking right.. and we need to crop the images of the cast to the proper size. I didn't really know what to put in the Encyclopedia/Important Links yet, so I just kind of listed some LG pages I thought might be useful. If someone could find like.. Kate's BeBo, or anything else you think would be more important/better suited there, I think it would be great! But generally speaking, I think it's a good start. What do y'all think? (Or are we better going with a layout more similar to [[AphidPedia]]?) Okay, thoughts please! I'm off to bed! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:20, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
::::If we're going to have a seperate KMPedia anyway, I'll try to design something that is like Miles wanted - Two portals and a general universe news main page.
::::I'll update pages when I'm done, and expect your opinions afterwards.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 03:32, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
:::::Cool I was Planning on working on it a little tomorrow, but i think I'll wait till you get started and I'll help you refine it. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 03:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
::::::It's looking much better already! The show debuts on July 16 per the article in today's Sunday Times (UK) (posted at lg15today) --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 08:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Misty, about what you said about the "LG15 Universe." Miles clearly stated in his first quote that the LG15 Universe is the universe that encompasses [[lonelygirl15]] ''and'' [[KateModern]]. I am sorry about not understanding your post. I completely agree with that. I've been thinking, particularly about what Miles wanted, and this is what I've come up with. The C's will do whatever they want with the main lonelygirl15.com page, but they did say that both shows will be viewable from it, and that they would have a link to the lonelygirl15 portal, and the KateModern portal. I think that the KMPedia page right now should actually be the KateModern portal. And that the Main Page right now should be moved to some other name, and it will be the lonelygirl15 portal. The Main Page should be, as Renegade said, a "general universe news main page." I think that that should be on the bottom half of the page, and the "Choose Your Destination" with links to both the lonelygirl15 portal and the KateModern portal will be at the top. I think that maybe we should delete more fan fiction pages (it's overwhelming how much there is) so that we have more room on the wiki for KateModern pages. Those are just my thoughts. Thanks, <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">  '''•Silver•'''  </font>]] <small>[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">Contribs</font>]]</small></span> 10:40, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
Hey guys. I think that the previous comment is accurate. Regardless of the past meanings of things. Here's the current dealio. LG15 is the Universe (HOO, The Order, Watchers, Ceremony Girls, etc.) and there are currently two shows running in that Universe: lonelygirl15 and KateModern. The LGPedia should encompass the whole LG15 Universe and should reflect that on the front page. Things like the video list, cast list, production list, etc. are all SHOW SPECIFIC and would be on those show pages. So, the current LGPedia front page is almost what each of the show pages (lonelygirl15 and KateModern) should look like (but with different logos and color schemes... will get you those soon). IN FACT, you could use that "show template" for the fan created shows as well... but obviously house them in some "fan section" that comes off the new LG15 Universe front page of LGPedia. Things like active shows, "Latest Developments in the LG15 Universe" (like you already have running along the right) could stay on the new portal (maybe you associate a Show Logo and color backdrop kinda like what you are currently doing for the different bloggers who post a video... with each "update" so it's clear which updates come from KM and which come from lonelygirl15). The index to the left would change (since cast, crew, etc. is a show specific thing). Make sense? Thanks everyone!!!!! Miles [[User:Admin|Admin]] 12:13, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

:So what you're saying, Miles, is that we still have the "portal" type of page that we have for lonelygirl15 on the Main Page, except it would be the LG15 Universe Portal. With links to the lonelygirl15 portal (the current Main Page) and the KateModern portal ([[KMPedia]]). Thanks, Miles! [[User:72.77.92.54|72.77.92.54]] 13:35, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

::Essentially, yes. With the caveat that right now the current Main Page has "LG15 Universe" stuff that wouldn't be on the new lonelygirl15 and definitely should be on the new LG15 Main Page. Ditto for the KateModern portal that is evolving on KMPedia. Hope that's clear. Thanks everyone. I am constantly amazed, honoured, and inspired by how much you all love this Universe I created and how much time you spend caring for and developing the LGPedia. THANKS! Miles. [[User:Admin|Admin]] 17:02, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

:::Miles, (And everyone else, I'd love EVERYONES feedback), I went ahead on my sandbox page and tried to create what ''I'' thought you were asking for. [[User:Zoey/sandbox]] has the main page and [[User:Zoey/sandbox/Portal:LGPedia]] is the LGPedia portal while [[User:Zoey/sandbox/Portal:KMPedia]] is the KMPedia portal. Obviously the pages are highly messy at the moment, and could use a good cleanup (I don't pretend to be the best at Wiki-coding, so maybe someone else could come in and give the pages a spruce.), but basically I tried to create what you were asking for, at least as a staring point. I'm not sure whether this is the best idea, or whether we should stick with our current mainpage and just create a prominent link to the KMPedia page and just.. repeat links that apply to both, but I did want to get this up so people could see what they thought. Hopefully this is what you were asking for, and I'd love feedback/suggestions for more links or anything else you thought the pages needed. For now, I'm going to go rest my eyes for a bit -- I've been staring at this wiki for FAR too long :) Good luck with the launch of Kate coming up, and hope to hear your thoughts (and everyone else's!) soon! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:58, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

== Browser neutrality or Official Browser ==

Ok there are some pages ( like the list of videos page ), that have significant differences when rendered in different browsers, and currently anyone can just edit to make the page look good in there own browser, and things don't look quite right in other browsers. I think we need a standard, either we enforce "Browser Neutrality", by not allowing any page design that doesn't look as good in all Browsers, or we declare one Browser the official Browser, and all pages are optimized to look best in that Browser. Realistically there are only 3 Browsers, that we need to concern ourselves with Safari (Webkit), Firefox (Gecko) and Internet Explorer (Trident), since every other Browser uses the same rendering engine as one of them. all of them have pros and cons:

Safari (Webkit) -
*Pros: Renders fonts better than any other Browser, most compliant to WC3 web standards.
*Cons: Windows version is still Beta,
*Other Webkit Browsers: OmniWeb, Swift, Sunrise, Midori, Shiira, Konqueror

Internet Explorer (Trident)
*Pros: Largest market share,
*Cons- Ignores WC3 standards, renders poorly
*Other Trident Browsers: AOL Explorer,Avant, Maxthon

FireFox (Gecko)
*Pros: Good WC3 compliance, best cross-platform support.
*Cons: inconsistent line spacing, adding extra pixels to object heights.
*Other Gecko Browsers: Netscape,Seamonkey, Camino, Galleon, Epiphany, K-Meleon, Flock
. --[[User:Misty|misty]] 14:03, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

:::'''Vote Tally'''
''Browser Neutrality''
# Suppory Enforced Browser Neutrality
## [[User:Zoey|Zoey]]
## [[User:Misty|Misty]]
## [[User:Modelmotion|Modelmotion]]
# Opposed of enforced Browser Neutrality
## [[User:Renegade|Renegade]]
''Official Browser''
# Support Firefox as the Official Browser
## [[User:Renegade|Renegade]]
# Support Safari as the Official Browser
## [[User:Misty|Misty]]
# Support IE as the Official Browser

<br>

:Didn't we reduce the render-difference to different line heights in List of Videos? At least that's the only significant difference I remember and see...
:Of course I'd love Firefox to become the official browser, but unless that happens, I'd prefer neutrality - 'cause I sure as hell won't develop on IE, and I'm not gonna install that buggy apple thing on my machine.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:14, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
:Personally, I vote for browser-neutrality. As web developers, you want your pages to look nice for everyone who views them, not force your viewers to use a certain browser or "tough luck guys". Plus, with something as widely viewed as the LGPedia, I think it's fair to say no matter what browser would be chosen as "official", there will be a LARGE number of viewers who do not use that. So yes, I vote for neutrality. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:52, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
::Ok well if we for browser neutrality the list of videos page need another redesign, sinse the montage to list alignment breaks browser neutrality. so no pages can be designed to need vertical alignment of independent objects. So it looks like so far everyone is agreeable to browser neutrality, I say that if there are no objections by midnight July 10, that we make that official policy, and add it to the style guide -[[User:Misty|Misty]] 02:33, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

:::I think different line height is close enough to not count as "differently looking".
:::After all, the only thing different is how far down the montage extends.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 03:32, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
:::: Yes it certainly counts , in fact that is the ''main issue'' for this whole discussion. We either declare Firefox safari or IE as the official Browser, and align it for that; or we declare Browser Neutrality and the page gets redesigned so vertical alignment doesn't matter. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 03:59, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
:::::If you decide to redesign a perfectly fine layout just because the lines are a little more spaced in one browser, you're doing that alone, missy. :P
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:27, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
:::::: That sounds like a vote againsts enforced browser neutrality. Ok so that things don't get confused I'm going to put a vote tally: Please ad or edit your vote appropriately. -[[User:Misty|Misty]] 11:42, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
::I use all the main browsers with the excepetion of IE (but including Safari and Firefox). As long as pages are readable on a mac I am happy, but please dont make this a mac vs pc issue--[[User:69.84.124.209|69.84.124.209]] 19:48, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony

2007-07-09T00:44:46Z

69.84.124.209: /* Browser neutrality or Official Browser */

The Ceremony

2006-10-30T16:51:33Z

69.84.124.209:

There has been a lot of speculation about [[Bree's religion]].

'''Bree's ritual''' is an unknown ritual which [[Bree]] participated in on the evening of Oct. 12, 2006. She first mentioned the ritual in [[A Change In My Life]], when she revealed that a diet, learning an [[Enochian|ancient language]], and exercises are part of her preparations. In the video [[My Helper]], Bree tells us that [[Lucy]], an acquaintance of her parents and member of Bree's unknown [[Bree's religion|religion]], is helping to prepare her for the ceremony.

In the video [[Bree The Cookie Monster]], as they are rating cookie recipes, [[Purple Monkey|P. Monkey]] holds up the scores "10," "12," and "06." This fueled speculation that Oct. 12 would be the date of the ceremony, as it is the date of [[Aleister Crowley]]'s birthday, known as Crowleymas.

In her video "The Ceremony Is Tomorrow :)" Bree reveals that it will indeed take place on October 12. She also described her preparations in more depth. "Once a week I've been receiving shots. They don't always leave me feeling the best. The diet has been near impossible. I don't know how I did that. Luckily, today they let me have milk and cookies." She also mentions that she has been taking pills and that the ancient language she was studying was Enochian.

In the video [[The Ceremony]] [[Daniel]] follows [[Bree]] to the ceremony but has to leave, after he is spotted.

In the video [[I Completed The Ceremony]] [[Bree]] tells us a little about the ceremony. She has a bandage on her shoulder again, which is odd, since her shots were supposed to be in preparation for the ceremony, which is over.

In [[I Lied To Daniel]], [[Bree]] reveals that there was no ceremony on Oct. 12, 2006 and the entire thing was a fake which had been orchestrated to get rid of [[Daniel]]. After the fake ceremony [[Bree]] continued to prepare for a ceremony but then she changed her mind and told her parents that she no longer wanted to participate.

===External links===
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_of_Light Body of Light] (Wikipedia article)
*[http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/crowley/vision_voice/aetyr18.htm The Cry of the 18th Aethyr]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_Brethren Exclusive Brethren] (Wikipedia article)
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incantation Incantation] (Wikipedia article)
*[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&list_uids=16876443&cmd=Retrieve&indexed=google Barnacles]
*[http://www.sekhetmaat.com/www/html/ritual/times/autumn_bhw.html Autumn Equinox Rite]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enochian Enochian] (Wikipedia article]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Bible The Satanic Bible] (Wikipedia article)
*[http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5577/elder.html GATHERING THE ENOCHIAN ELDERS]
*[http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/gnostic_mass.htm Gnostic Mass]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_XV,_The_Gnostic_Mass The Gnostic Mass] (Wikipedia article]

[[Category:Theories and speculation]]

Quote from "Body of Light" Link... (italics added)

According to Crowley, the Body of Light is more important than simply for astral travel—it is the storehouse of all experiences. From Magick Without Tears (Ch. 81):

In Magick, on the contrary, one passes through the veil of the exterior world (which, as in Yoga, but in another sense, becomes "unreal" by comparison as one passes beyond) one creates a subtle body (instrument is a better term) called the body of Light; this one develops and controls; ''It gains new powers as one progresses, usually by means of what is called "initiation:"'' finally, one carries on almost one's whole life in this Body of Light, and achieves in its own way the mastery of the Universe.

Gemma's flat

2006-10-30T16:48:28Z

69.84.124.209:

[[Gemmers19]] posts her videos from her apartment in London. The background on her wall is decorated as a cityscape. The full-wall cityscape is a strong contrast to the lone picture of a house in [[Bree's bedroom]].

Some fans have compared this effect to that of the wall of a Subway sandwich shop. The image also prompted some fans to speculate that the videos were shot in front of a blue screen with a London background. This is obviously not the case as Gemma wears blue clothing in her videos, and if this were a blue screen her clothing would disappear. However it should be noted that the blue screen technique is often used with other colors such as green so they they do not conflict with cothing. Furthermore, a house plant is clearly visible next to the wall.