LGPedia - User contributions [en]

User talk:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15

2008-04-23T23:55:28Z

71.187.29.212: /* Comments */

''Issues currently being discussed:''
*Lack of indication that the character images are links. ([[#Solutions|Current Discussion]])
{{clr}}

==Comments==
:I love this new version it sick [[User:OldOak7]]
:I think it looks great! [[User:nnnik]]
:I have no criticism at all. Maybe it's that I'm not good at this stuff, so I think it looks perfect. Either way LOVE IT!!!! Can't wait to see the finished product. --Greenie [[User:138.210.216.82|138.210.216.82]] 12:17, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
:I love this redesign! You do a nice job, Renegade!- [[User:AzukiLotus]]12 April 2008
::Ditto. This "living room" for the LGPedia "house" feels less like an information overload, and more like a "welcome! won't you come on in?" ;-) --[[user:Nieriel.Manwathiel|Nieriel.Manwathiel]]
:I don't know if we're still taking comments on the page, but just for the record, I like think it looks awesome. [[User:Elphielivesagain]]
:I think maybe the background needs another color than white. [[User:Krisser]]

I really really really like the new design of the page, i say lets go for it!

==Suggestions==
===Shiori's happy nitpicks===
#The contrast on the vid template is still too low. Can we crank it up or something? The "no image available" image is especially making it look jarring with the low contrast.
##Playing around in Photoshop, #9FC6F0 looks nice for the bars.
##Could you make the image background the darker color? I liked that... (Speaking of the image, tone down the "no image available" one; it's crazy dark.)
#Looks squished. Make layout width:100%, pwease.
#I don't even know if this is even possible, but I'll throw it out there anyway. When the layout is changed to 100% width, and then I make my browser window smaller, the character images eat up the side nav. If you could, fix it on the left and maybe set the width in between the images to a variable width so they'd stretch across the whole top bar?

Looks ''really'' good, Ren! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 14:31, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:#I ''can'' play around with the colors, but let's first hear other opinions. And the "no image available" one was actually made for the previous proposal, I just uploaded it 'cause it's the default filename if no image was set. I'll upload a new one once we know which color we go with.
:#It's designed for 1024px width; can't make it wider without some more photoshop love. So let's hear what others say, first.
:#Given that the character icons should stay away from the dark blue part, if possible, I'd be opposed to that. But then again, I don't know what exactly you did and didn't do to achieve width: 100%, so I can't even reproduce the problem.
:More opinions, anyone?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:00, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

===Character Row===
What happens if, at some point, we need to have more or less character icons? Does this require an entire redo in photoshop? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:36, 27 March 2008 (CDT)
:The "edit character row" link is there for a reason, Z ;) [[User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row]]
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:21, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

::Right, but what if we add a character, doesn't that throw the width of the character row off? Based on the width of the header? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:14, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Well, depending on how you modify the row, it shrinks or grows...?
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:39, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

{{clr}}

===Vid Template/Image Color(s)===
<div style="padding:1ex 1em; border:#aaa 1px solid; background-color:#ECFCF4">
:<font color=red>'''Resolved: Solution was to keep darker colors.'''</font>
:''Images have been removed during the archiving.''
We're basically agreeing that the colors look good in the vid template, but Ren and I are argue-discussing whether the darker color should be used for the image border or not. So please decide whether the top or bottom version looks better: [image]
- [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:34, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

:I like the bottom one better.
::--[[User:TimiN|TimiN]] 19:45, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::I have created an actual (not fabricated :P) comparison:
::[image]
::I agree that, put next to each other like this, the darker scheme looks slightly better; but keep in mind that, on the portal, the news are placed next to a giant, dark box, which generates a much different contrast:
::[image]
::And, though I agree the difference is marginal, and the darker scheme doesn't look ''bad'', I do think, placed against the dark box, the lighter scheme works slightly better.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:36, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::My does not think the lighter version is better. :p (When taken from a full-page standpoint, the difference is almost unnoticeable. Meh. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:44, 31 March 2008 (CDT)
</div>

===Character Icons===
One problem I have with the design now is that it is not clear that you can click on the individual character icons to view the main characters' pages. The icons simply look like part of the design at present. Perhaps putting the names back under the icons will help people understand that they can click those... or does anyone else have any ideas? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:52, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

:You get the normal link hand icon over them, so those not familiar with mediawiki in general should get it by instinct. And even if they don't, [[Characters]] is the first link in the first content box. In a worst case scenario, a confused person just takes one click longer.
:Not to mention that the names of the current character boxes don't look like links either. I click them because I know from experience they are links, not because it's actually obvious.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:40, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::The hand icon appears over every image, so the fact that they appear on the icons does not provide any real clue to the fact that the images actually take you to the characters' pages. The whole point of putting the icons on the front page like that is to give people an easy way to familiarize themselves with the characters. People won't just automatically click the [[Characters]] link. That's like saying we only need to put the stills from each new video, because people will click on them ''knowing'' they can get to the video transcript pages based on the fact that the hand icon is there... and if not, they'll be able to click the "List of Videos" link on the sidebar, which takes them to the list of videos anyways, so what's the point of listing the videos on the portal page anyways? The point is ease of access, which is why the character icons are there in the first place as well.

::And I think there is a big difference between the character icon placement you proposed and the one we have now. Currently, they are in a separate column and each icon has a box with the name of the character underneath. It is much more obvious that you can click those images and/or the links to learn more about the characters than it is on your proposal, where there is no text and the images just look like part of the header design. I think it's important that people know to click these links, so we should find a way to make it obvious that they can. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:46, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Random idea: Would overlaying a link-indicating icon or something work? I can't imagine it looking right with text, which is kind of a problem... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:49, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I added alt text, I think that helps a little. Not sure it solves the problem entirely though... --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:55, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Hence why I said "those not familiar with mediawiki in general should get it by instinct". Those who are new to LGPedia should instinctively react to the cursor change, those who are familiar with LGPedia also know that the portal icons can be clicked.
:::Of course largely labeling them as links would make it clearer, but a caption box like on the current portal will definitely not work. An overlay with the name ''might'' work. But so far, you're the only one mentioning it, so let's hear what others say before we change the design in such a drastic way.
:::In addition, your analogy is wrong - the latest videos are changing almost daily and are on the front page as ''news'', not as permanent content. We are not just providing a link, we are reporting the latest video - and that requires a date at least. In addition, a random still is by far not as clear as a frontal face shot. Some shot of the general LA area, or of Daniel in the rented house, could fit dozens of episodes, so the link wouldn't be clear without text. The List of Videos is also not a replacement, because it shows neither a date or posting, nor a description, nor a viewing link.
:::A link to Daniel's page on Characters ''is'' the same as a link to Daniel's page on the front page.
:::A link with poster on List of Videos is ''not'' the same as a full news post with posting date and watch links.
:::You cannot compare news posts that inform users of the latest information of a video to a static link.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:59, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::Okay, but how is a person supposed to differentiate between the hand icon that comes over the images for the icons and the hand icon that comes over the image for, say, the graphic that says "Lonelygirl15 portal." That image doesn't take them anywhere of relevance, so why should people assume that the icons, which appear to be a part of the larger image, take them anywhere?
::::I agree with you on why we need the whole video template. But I am unsure why this is relevant. Are you trying to argue that the icons shouldn't be there in the first place because they do not report the news? Could you please clarify this?
::::And I completely disagree that a link to Daniel's page on Characters is the same as the link to Daniel's page on the front page. The Characters page contains an image, a clearly identifiable link, and a brief description of the character. The icon on the front page does contain not anything but an image link. And really, on the Characters page, people ''aren't'' supposed to be clicking the image to get to the page (otherwise all of the characters would need images, which most of them do ''not'' have), but the images redirect there as a "just in case."
::::They are not equal. They are different. The icons are on the front page because providing easy links to the main characters is important. We need to find a way to make sure they are emphasized, otherwise they might as well not be there. And unless this is what you are suggesting (in which case we'd need to have an entirely different discussion here), we need to make sure people know they are there and will take them to the content they will, in fact, take them to. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 20:50, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, I for one would prefer names next to the characters. Now, I think Ren said that would be difficult code-wise (I wouldn't know any better, as that's not my expertise) but I still would lean toward names with the characters if only for new visitors to attach names to the faces they see. And while I'm sure that there won't be so much white space on the Portal -- due to the fact this is merely a sandbox and such -- I do want to express that I'm not a fan of so much blank, empty space (i imagine there's something in the works, right Ren?). Again, maybe it's just me, but those are my thoughts. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:29, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::This looks '''awesome''', but I agree with Pheon about the names. I as well am not an expert at coding, but how impossible would it be for it to only say the name when you roll over it? I don't know if that's completely out of the question but I figured I'd throw it out there. Please don't laugh me to scorn! [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 21:37, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::To take it a step further, (I'm pretty sure it's not possible in the Pedia, so you can just consider it rambling) we could do rollover images to let you know the character's name... I think the best idea would be an alt tag with just the character name and some superimposed image letting you know it's a link. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:43, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::I can easily code a div that says "Click here for this Character's page - Daniel" or something when you hover over Daniel's pic. If it works in ''Internet Explorer'', however, depends on if the programmers were drunk one day and actually wrote standards compliant code.
::::::You misunderstood me, pheon. Code-wise, it'd be easy to write. But if you add captions to these images, the design is destroyed. Period.
::::::As for the white-space, it's currently fixed width optimized for a 1024x768 resolution. As noted above, I can try creating a variable width version, but that requires a lot more work on the image. However, given that more whitespace is generally regarded as "lighter" and "easier to grasp" by users, and I don't see anything lacking space, I honestly don't quite see the problem. The news boxes would not be smaller anyway - if anything, they would be just as high, but longer, with the descriptions only filling one line, and the content descriptions would all be in one line.
:::::You missed my point, Z. All I was doing was showing how your analogy of comparing the character icons to the news was invalid. I was not making any statements about the validity of any content item on any page.
:::::And btw, the header can easily be turned into a link to the portal to de-confuse the users, or overlayed by an empty div to de-linkify it. Or used as a CSS background image. Or whatever. What matters is not that the header is a link, but that the character icons are links.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:07, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I said it before, and I'll say it again. Variable width FTW. Make it so! (If you can) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:09, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::The headers are not links anymore and the layout is variable width now.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:08, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Just added charbox template, generating a special overlay effect on FF and IE 7 and upwards, and also changing the link to the character page directly, not to the image page. (Thus making very obvious that this image is a link to a character, not to an image page.)
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:48, 5 April 2008 (CDT)

:Looks perfect! I love the rollover names, that's awesome! [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 18:16, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

I really like the rollover names too, and I definitely think it helps, but I don't think it solves the problem entirely. We really need a clear indication that these are links. I think that part of the thing here is that the people who are commenting are people who are familiar with the current layout, and already know that these images should be links... but any new viewers that LGPedia draws in could very easily be confused by the proposed setup. Perhaps something like.. a little arrow that says "Click here to learn more about these characters"... or something to that effect should be considered? I'm not sure how to best do this, as obviously I want to keep it as aesthetically pleasing as possible, but I also think functionality and navigability for new users is really important and something we should all keep in mind. Other than that, I really like this design and am on board with going forward with it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:30, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
:Has there been any additional thought given to how to solve this issue? Like I said, as soon as we can fix this, I am totally on board with making this design live... --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 10:47, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
:A suggestion from the person who doesn't really know anything (so please don't take him seriously because this would probably really hard to do) but what if we put "Characters:" to the left of the images? Now the thing that would probably be impossible to do on a wiki: I think it might be cool if we could put buttons to the left and right of the images that when you roll over them, they scroll. This way if there are any additional main characters, we can add them in, and people can just scroll through the list. Yet again, I know nothing so don't yell at me for my incompetence, just an idea. [[User:-R-|-R-]] 18:51, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

===Video List===
I love the design, but I wanted to point out that the video list column extends far beyond the other one. Maybe instead of four video boxes we could have three? Just a thought. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:25, 19 April 2008 (EST)
:I agree, because it's so long, it leaves such a gap at the bottom-left side (me no fan of huge-white spaces). Three video boxes could work, or maybe even making the section titles (i.e. "Lonelygirl15 Universe," "Behing the Scenes," "Other Series & Content") could be bigger? Just throwing out thoughts . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:51, 20 April 2008 (CDT)
::Another option could be to just remove the "recent videos" list and just have the link to the complete video list. What good do those additional five videos do, anyway? (I was also trying to innovate a bottom bar for the most recent five videos, but that would probably look weird.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:07, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

:::I have no idea what you guys talking about. When re-sized to 1024, the columns are almost equal, when wide on 1280, only the recent videos peek over. I don't see anything extending "far beyond". Screenshots? Arrows?
:::And, most importantly, are those showstoppers for you?
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 08:22, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
::::In my post I'm refering to the "Recent Videos" list. While its not major, I'm just not a fan of such a huge amount of white space. That said, I'm cool with Shiori's idea of just dropping the list all together, leaving just the link to the complete video list. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:30, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::Are you on a notebook?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:11, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::Bah, since even *if* you count this as a design problem (which I, personally, don't), it still looks better than the current layout, I'll go forward with the move unless there are objections within 21 minutes. If the list is a problem later, we can put it in a collapsed, expandable div/table.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:09, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

I really, really feel that the pictures next to each video should have the same rollover effect that the character icons do. So...you would roll over the picture, and the black filter and video title would be on the picture. It just kinda throws me off-center when the pictures aren't standard. --[[User:Phisho|Phisho]] 18:33, 23 April 2008 (EST)

==Launch==
===Problems===
We are going forward with this? I do not see any resolution on the character icon issue...? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:23, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
:The resolution is, I had a notice '''directly on the portal''' for the past [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Portal:Lonelygirl15&diff=119618&oldid=119583 eleven days] (getting very direct [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Portal:Lonelygirl15&diff=122215&oldid=122136 two days ago]) telling people to note objections and criticism. You are ''still'' the only one who complains about the character icons. In the [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARenegade%2FPortal%3ALonelygirl15&diff=122724&oldid=119695 entire time], people mostly said they liked the design. I had one suggestion to totally change the background color, which was unsigned and not taken serious by ''anyone'' (and would look like crap), one suggestion to put "Characters:" next to the characters box, which, permanently, would destroy the layout, and on hover would be the same time of fix as now, and these remarks about the video list length now, which a) is minor, and can be fixed later, b) I can't even reproduce/understand in the first place, and didn't come up in the month before, so it's likely a taste question anyway, and c) one column has to be longer anyway. Period. It's forced by the way I coded this. Not to mention I already proposed a fix above (collapsed expandable div). So we have one non-serious, anonymous suggestion, one suggestion that only seeks to please you, not specifically mentions the poster actually dislikes the current state, and this minor taste issue today. In the same time, we got three "this looks great!" type of answers, and no one really objects. FH14 and Pheon don't really object - they just don't like the length of a certain content item. Neither do ''you'' really object to the design as a whole, you'd just like to put giant arrows on the character icons.

:Nobody really objects to this redesign, after I made it as public as possible on the pedia, and there was enough time to discuss it. Even with the minor nitpicks people still have, it's way better than the current version. You can argue "OMG THE LINKS ARE INVISIBLE!" all you want, even if they are, the users are not retarded - if they really want to know about the characters, they can click "Characters" until we found a solution for the icons. So yes, I'm moving forward with this ''now''.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:03, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

Renegade, I really did not want to do this, but since when do you have the authority to overrule admins... muchless to disrespect me... or ANY member of this wiki, for that matter? I am reverting your edits until a ''calm'' and ''rational'' '''consensus''' can be reached on this issue. And please take this as your warning, if the attitude displayed in these posts continues, there ''will'' be consequences. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:29, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:I did not realize that this was this close to going live, and I was surprised to see it happen. Frankly, although most people did agree that the new design looks good, the portal is a ''very'' highly viewed page, so I think we need to be absolutely sure we're ready before we make such a change. And in this case I think that means admin backing as well. The old portal works for now, and since there is a dispute we're going to leave it at that until a resolution is reached. And please, ''please'', ''PLEASE'', '''keep things civil'''. Respect is the name of the game here. Just keep that in mind. Kthx.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 00:40, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:Once more, Zoey fucks over community discussion and consensus. Surprise! How many weeks this time until you can be arsed to go on with this? Three? Four? Five? Never?
:Let's be honest here: You're just pissed off because I didn't give you the opportunity to shoot it down in silence. I dared to post it out in the open, so you couldn't just say "no" without reasoning in the shadows. Now you're fucked because your made up reasoning finds no support, so you just claim there is no consensus, even though there was really no objection to the current design, and even though the note was ''on the fucking portal'' for almost two weeks.
:I am sick of this shit. '''If you want to dictate this redesign away, do it already.''' But stop making up bullshit reasons. Our users are not retarded. They ''can'' click "Characters" for character information if they don't realize the icons are links. And there is no need for more discussion for a consensus that needs to be reached, because everybody already likes the design, ''you'' just think our users are too stupid to find character information. In fact, I have been working ''together'' with the community for weeks to create the current state, and the progress and process is very visible above. The only thing standing in the way of this redesign is ''you''. Don't claim anything else.

:And for the record, no matter what you may try to construct here in order to justify your dictatorship - I did ''not'' overrule any administrative decision. You did ''not'' tell me to stop, even though it ''clearly'' said I was going to do it 29 minutes later. Had you wanted me to stop, a simple "stop!" would've have been enough. '''Do not lie and pretend there was an order not to do this.''' There was a clear favor of the redesign over the current design in the community, the redesign works and has been tested in both browsers, and there was no administrative overrule.
:I behaved perfectly within the policies and traditions of this encyclopedia. I just happened to do something ''you personally'' don't like.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:07, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

::Okay, really, give it a rest. I don't care about your personal feelings about Zoey or whatever. You can disagree with Zoey all you want, but there's absolutely no reason to attack her. And it's not just because she's the head admin; you shouldn't talk like that to ''anyone'' on the pedia. So here's what I suggest: Everyone just calm down, take a break, and come back later when you're capable of being respectful and not just vindictive. The portal we have right now has lasted this long--there's no reason why it has to be changed very soon, so let's try to work this out first. But please, only in a respectful manner.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 01:37, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:::Ren, before I say anything else . . . heed Jon's word of advice. Even if we're all adults here, there's simply no need to bring that kind of language and attitude here. You're angry and peeved, we get it. We don't need to read what could be very well be considered a verbal attack. Seriously Ren, keep it civil -- not only for respect of your fellow LGPedians, but also for the sake of not reducing another discussion into a shouting match.

:::Back to the discussion, while there have been about ten different posters on this discussion page, that just not a good consensus. Granted, I know we'd never get every user to give their opinion and I ''know'' you gave them "ample" time to even give an opinion, but like Jon said the Portals are perhaps the most frequent viewed of pages . . . . and we're not even talking about a small change to the Portal like pattern of the character boxes or design of the video column, this is on the WHOLE portal, man. And yes, Admins don't need to rubberstamp yes or no to every decision, but we do have the final judgement whether or not we beleive a proper consensus has been reached. And, IMHO, the lack of discussion here (myself included) just shows such a consensus isn't there and that even some of the more die-hard LGPedians haven't had a chance to properly assess the redesign. Honestly, '''would''' waiting a little longer for some actual discussion ''be so bad?'' We do have lives outside of this Pedia, you know. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 02:00, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

::::And you actually think confirming that the portal is one of the most viewed pages through a ''second'' admin is helping?
::::All you're doing is confirming that there was a notice for almost two weeks on the probably most-viewed page of this encyclopedia. All you're doing is confirming that this was ''not'' a surprising move at all, and that this discussion was as public as it gets. It's ridiculous to pretend there'd be a sudden influx of new discussion participants if we waited longer.
::::The only way to make this discussion more public is to put the notice in 500% font size, bold and red.
::::If you wanna cower in fear of Zoey's wrath, please, do so. I don't blame you. But everybody knows the discussion itself if not going to change. Maybe over a month, we'll get a new nitpick or a new comment, but nothing's going to change. This discussion has discussed everything there was to discussed. The design was adapted again and again and again to fit the community's needs. There was an open discussion from the start, then the participate link, then the general notice on the portal, then the specific notice on the portal, then the direct statement on here.
::::Let me reiterate that: The portal itself said the redesign was coming almost two weeks, and the portal itself said, for two days, it was coming on monday. It is fucking ridiculous you three are behaving like this was a great surprise to any of you.
::::The only reason this is halted is because Zoey is not getting what she wants, and she has the badge to force her will. It's as simple as that.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:16, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::Ren, Jonpro seriously JUST asked that, ''"Everyone just calm down, take a break, and come back later when you're capable of being respectful and not just vindictive."'' Despite this, you have continued to personally attack Zoey. Enough man, this just isn't the place for that. Now, posting a civil response is fine, but you have '''no''' reason to just continue attacking Zoey. As it stands, the three of us don't feel the redesign is necessarily ready to become live, nor do we feel that there's any reason why it has to become live THIS very second. The date it was "planned" to go live was chosen I imagine for efficiency's sake, but it's not like we have a deadline like we did when the KM Portal was first being created.
:::::But once again, before you respond please take the time to take a deep breath. We really don't need another shouting match here. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:41, 22 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::::I have been following the design discussion for some time and not felt the need to comment because I pretty much felt Zoey's comments on that thread said it all. I think the design is quite nice and thanks to Ren for all the hard work. However as pointed out it can be just a little better if we can figure out how to make it clearer that the pictures are icons. Yes, I get the point that it has never been totally clear even with the old design. However this is the perfect opportunity for us to get it right. I am a Mac user and as such i strongly believe that good design should be inherently intuitive to the user. The film strip looks nice and the roll overs were a good first step but I cannot help but feel we are missing one small adjustment to the design that will solve the dilemma once and for all. Now is the time to do that and I would be more than happy to try out designs or contribute in any way to finding a really great solution. I fear that if we take the design live now the importance of this design decision will just be lost and may never reach that final awesome end point that will do the design justice.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:31, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

::::::Pheon, the only thing that really stands out to me in your reply is that you don't deny at all that the notice was very visible, and that it was very visible Monday was planned. Yet none of you complained. So either you ''are'' lying, and you knew full well when it was planned to go live with this, or you're not lying, which means the three administrators of this pedia failed to watch the most-viewed page on it for two to three days - iow, they failed to do their job. Majorly.
::::::There is no ground for you to pretend this is oh-so-surprising. In fact, ''on this very page'' it is documented that you were here on April 20th, whereas I added the "it's happening Monday" notice on the 19th. Yet, there was no "OMG STOP!!!" from you.
::::::Unless you're blind or illiterate, it was very fucking obvious when I was going to do this. Yet, you guys are trying to build this up as a kind of sneak attack where I tried to circumvent the decision-makers. Not gonna happen. If you want to shoot this down, fine. Do it. But I will not let you make up bullshit to justify it.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 10:41, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::::I for not did not see the [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Portal:Lonelygirl15&diff=prev&oldid=122215 notice] that the design was going to go live on Monday, and it's not fair to call me either "blind or illiterate" because of that. You posted it in ''one'' place, on the portal, and made no mention of it here until ''21 minutes'' beforehand. And frankly, I've been pretty busy these last few days, and even if I happened to see the edit in Recent Changes, I probably assumed it was just an update for a new video, as there was no edit summary. And in the few times I likely viewed the portal, I didn't think to look closely at the notice to see that it had changed to indicate a date when the design would go live. In other words, it wasn't as obvious as you make it out to be, and there's no reason to yell at us for missing it. Having said that, you still ''did'' indicate that you were going to make the change a few days beforehand, and there was no ''direct'' objection (although I'd consider Zoey's [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARenegade%2FPortal%3ALonelygirl15&diff=122724&oldid=122722 edit] an indirect objection), so you did follow procedure for the most part. However, that does not at all justify your disrespectful comments toward any of us, and your refusal to stop making them isn't helping your case.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 16:04, 22 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::I also missed the notice on the main page and I use LGPedia quite a bit. I think that just goes to show that our eyes (or optical sensors in my case) are creatures of habit and that goes to why design is so very important. I was following the discussion thread and from what I saw the design issue in question had not been resolved and I think thats what we need to get back to.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:59, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

===Solutions===
(''Ignoring the arguing'') Well, I might as well propose a possible solution to the character box problem. Maybe next to Bree's icon there could be a sideways strip of text that says "Characters" something like:

{|cellspacing="0" align="center" style="background-color: transparent;"
|align="center" style="background:#1E2A63; border: 1px solid #1E2A63;width:100px"|'''{{link|link=Characters|text=Characters|color=#ABB8DB}}'''
|}

But, again, on it's side at the end of the row (I'm not exactly sure what the names of the colors used are, so I just used these). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 08:50, 23 April 2008 (EST)

::or we could add something to an extra icon in the film strip row that would just make it clear the icons are buttoms but still keeping the slick design.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 07:54, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

:::Making my own solution, as it seems graphical options might still be in the realm of confusing, I added some text above the character images explaining that they are, in fact, links. It also doesn't kill the layout all that much, so (assuming it can be considered to do the job), everyone should be happy. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:06, 23 April 2008 (CDT)
::::I like the nice (very small) text that you added. I think it fixes the problem without killing the layout. --Greenie [[User:205.243.71.71|205.243.71.71]] 12:19, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

::I really like the page! --Elphielives

User talk:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15

2008-04-23T23:55:03Z

71.187.29.212: /* Shiori's happy nitpicks */

''Issues currently being discussed:''
*Lack of indication that the character images are links. ([[#Solutions|Current Discussion]])
{{clr}}

==Comments==
:I love this new version it sick [[User:OldOak7]]
:I think it looks great! [[User:nnnik]]
:I have no criticism at all. Maybe it's that I'm not good at this stuff, so I think it looks perfect. Either way LOVE IT!!!! Can't wait to see the finished product. --Greenie [[User:138.210.216.82|138.210.216.82]] 12:17, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
:I love this redesign! You do a nice job, Renegade!- [[User:AzukiLotus]]12 April 2008
::Ditto. This "living room" for the LGPedia "house" feels less like an information overload, and more like a "welcome! won't you come on in?" ;-) --[[user:Nieriel.Manwathiel|Nieriel.Manwathiel]]
:I don't know if we're still taking comments on the page, but just for the record, I like think it looks awesome. [[User:Elphielivesagain]]

I really really really like the new design of the page, i say lets go for it!

==Suggestions==
===Shiori's happy nitpicks===
#The contrast on the vid template is still too low. Can we crank it up or something? The "no image available" image is especially making it look jarring with the low contrast.
##Playing around in Photoshop, #9FC6F0 looks nice for the bars.
##Could you make the image background the darker color? I liked that... (Speaking of the image, tone down the "no image available" one; it's crazy dark.)
#Looks squished. Make layout width:100%, pwease.
#I don't even know if this is even possible, but I'll throw it out there anyway. When the layout is changed to 100% width, and then I make my browser window smaller, the character images eat up the side nav. If you could, fix it on the left and maybe set the width in between the images to a variable width so they'd stretch across the whole top bar?

Looks ''really'' good, Ren! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 14:31, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:#I ''can'' play around with the colors, but let's first hear other opinions. And the "no image available" one was actually made for the previous proposal, I just uploaded it 'cause it's the default filename if no image was set. I'll upload a new one once we know which color we go with.
:#It's designed for 1024px width; can't make it wider without some more photoshop love. So let's hear what others say, first.
:#Given that the character icons should stay away from the dark blue part, if possible, I'd be opposed to that. But then again, I don't know what exactly you did and didn't do to achieve width: 100%, so I can't even reproduce the problem.
:More opinions, anyone?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:00, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

===Character Row===
What happens if, at some point, we need to have more or less character icons? Does this require an entire redo in photoshop? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:36, 27 March 2008 (CDT)
:The "edit character row" link is there for a reason, Z ;) [[User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row]]
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:21, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

::Right, but what if we add a character, doesn't that throw the width of the character row off? Based on the width of the header? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:14, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Well, depending on how you modify the row, it shrinks or grows...?
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:39, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

{{clr}}

===Vid Template/Image Color(s)===
<div style="padding:1ex 1em; border:#aaa 1px solid; background-color:#ECFCF4">
:<font color=red>'''Resolved: Solution was to keep darker colors.'''</font>
:''Images have been removed during the archiving.''
We're basically agreeing that the colors look good in the vid template, but Ren and I are argue-discussing whether the darker color should be used for the image border or not. So please decide whether the top or bottom version looks better: [image]
- [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:34, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

:I like the bottom one better.
::--[[User:TimiN|TimiN]] 19:45, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::I have created an actual (not fabricated :P) comparison:
::[image]
::I agree that, put next to each other like this, the darker scheme looks slightly better; but keep in mind that, on the portal, the news are placed next to a giant, dark box, which generates a much different contrast:
::[image]
::And, though I agree the difference is marginal, and the darker scheme doesn't look ''bad'', I do think, placed against the dark box, the lighter scheme works slightly better.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:36, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::My does not think the lighter version is better. :p (When taken from a full-page standpoint, the difference is almost unnoticeable. Meh. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:44, 31 March 2008 (CDT)
</div>

===Character Icons===
One problem I have with the design now is that it is not clear that you can click on the individual character icons to view the main characters' pages. The icons simply look like part of the design at present. Perhaps putting the names back under the icons will help people understand that they can click those... or does anyone else have any ideas? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:52, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

:You get the normal link hand icon over them, so those not familiar with mediawiki in general should get it by instinct. And even if they don't, [[Characters]] is the first link in the first content box. In a worst case scenario, a confused person just takes one click longer.
:Not to mention that the names of the current character boxes don't look like links either. I click them because I know from experience they are links, not because it's actually obvious.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:40, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::The hand icon appears over every image, so the fact that they appear on the icons does not provide any real clue to the fact that the images actually take you to the characters' pages. The whole point of putting the icons on the front page like that is to give people an easy way to familiarize themselves with the characters. People won't just automatically click the [[Characters]] link. That's like saying we only need to put the stills from each new video, because people will click on them ''knowing'' they can get to the video transcript pages based on the fact that the hand icon is there... and if not, they'll be able to click the "List of Videos" link on the sidebar, which takes them to the list of videos anyways, so what's the point of listing the videos on the portal page anyways? The point is ease of access, which is why the character icons are there in the first place as well.

::And I think there is a big difference between the character icon placement you proposed and the one we have now. Currently, they are in a separate column and each icon has a box with the name of the character underneath. It is much more obvious that you can click those images and/or the links to learn more about the characters than it is on your proposal, where there is no text and the images just look like part of the header design. I think it's important that people know to click these links, so we should find a way to make it obvious that they can. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:46, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Random idea: Would overlaying a link-indicating icon or something work? I can't imagine it looking right with text, which is kind of a problem... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:49, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I added alt text, I think that helps a little. Not sure it solves the problem entirely though... --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:55, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Hence why I said "those not familiar with mediawiki in general should get it by instinct". Those who are new to LGPedia should instinctively react to the cursor change, those who are familiar with LGPedia also know that the portal icons can be clicked.
:::Of course largely labeling them as links would make it clearer, but a caption box like on the current portal will definitely not work. An overlay with the name ''might'' work. But so far, you're the only one mentioning it, so let's hear what others say before we change the design in such a drastic way.
:::In addition, your analogy is wrong - the latest videos are changing almost daily and are on the front page as ''news'', not as permanent content. We are not just providing a link, we are reporting the latest video - and that requires a date at least. In addition, a random still is by far not as clear as a frontal face shot. Some shot of the general LA area, or of Daniel in the rented house, could fit dozens of episodes, so the link wouldn't be clear without text. The List of Videos is also not a replacement, because it shows neither a date or posting, nor a description, nor a viewing link.
:::A link to Daniel's page on Characters ''is'' the same as a link to Daniel's page on the front page.
:::A link with poster on List of Videos is ''not'' the same as a full news post with posting date and watch links.
:::You cannot compare news posts that inform users of the latest information of a video to a static link.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:59, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::Okay, but how is a person supposed to differentiate between the hand icon that comes over the images for the icons and the hand icon that comes over the image for, say, the graphic that says "Lonelygirl15 portal." That image doesn't take them anywhere of relevance, so why should people assume that the icons, which appear to be a part of the larger image, take them anywhere?
::::I agree with you on why we need the whole video template. But I am unsure why this is relevant. Are you trying to argue that the icons shouldn't be there in the first place because they do not report the news? Could you please clarify this?
::::And I completely disagree that a link to Daniel's page on Characters is the same as the link to Daniel's page on the front page. The Characters page contains an image, a clearly identifiable link, and a brief description of the character. The icon on the front page does contain not anything but an image link. And really, on the Characters page, people ''aren't'' supposed to be clicking the image to get to the page (otherwise all of the characters would need images, which most of them do ''not'' have), but the images redirect there as a "just in case."
::::They are not equal. They are different. The icons are on the front page because providing easy links to the main characters is important. We need to find a way to make sure they are emphasized, otherwise they might as well not be there. And unless this is what you are suggesting (in which case we'd need to have an entirely different discussion here), we need to make sure people know they are there and will take them to the content they will, in fact, take them to. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 20:50, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, I for one would prefer names next to the characters. Now, I think Ren said that would be difficult code-wise (I wouldn't know any better, as that's not my expertise) but I still would lean toward names with the characters if only for new visitors to attach names to the faces they see. And while I'm sure that there won't be so much white space on the Portal -- due to the fact this is merely a sandbox and such -- I do want to express that I'm not a fan of so much blank, empty space (i imagine there's something in the works, right Ren?). Again, maybe it's just me, but those are my thoughts. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:29, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::This looks '''awesome''', but I agree with Pheon about the names. I as well am not an expert at coding, but how impossible would it be for it to only say the name when you roll over it? I don't know if that's completely out of the question but I figured I'd throw it out there. Please don't laugh me to scorn! [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 21:37, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::To take it a step further, (I'm pretty sure it's not possible in the Pedia, so you can just consider it rambling) we could do rollover images to let you know the character's name... I think the best idea would be an alt tag with just the character name and some superimposed image letting you know it's a link. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:43, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::I can easily code a div that says "Click here for this Character's page - Daniel" or something when you hover over Daniel's pic. If it works in ''Internet Explorer'', however, depends on if the programmers were drunk one day and actually wrote standards compliant code.
::::::You misunderstood me, pheon. Code-wise, it'd be easy to write. But if you add captions to these images, the design is destroyed. Period.
::::::As for the white-space, it's currently fixed width optimized for a 1024x768 resolution. As noted above, I can try creating a variable width version, but that requires a lot more work on the image. However, given that more whitespace is generally regarded as "lighter" and "easier to grasp" by users, and I don't see anything lacking space, I honestly don't quite see the problem. The news boxes would not be smaller anyway - if anything, they would be just as high, but longer, with the descriptions only filling one line, and the content descriptions would all be in one line.
:::::You missed my point, Z. All I was doing was showing how your analogy of comparing the character icons to the news was invalid. I was not making any statements about the validity of any content item on any page.
:::::And btw, the header can easily be turned into a link to the portal to de-confuse the users, or overlayed by an empty div to de-linkify it. Or used as a CSS background image. Or whatever. What matters is not that the header is a link, but that the character icons are links.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:07, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I said it before, and I'll say it again. Variable width FTW. Make it so! (If you can) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:09, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::The headers are not links anymore and the layout is variable width now.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:08, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Just added charbox template, generating a special overlay effect on FF and IE 7 and upwards, and also changing the link to the character page directly, not to the image page. (Thus making very obvious that this image is a link to a character, not to an image page.)
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:48, 5 April 2008 (CDT)

:Looks perfect! I love the rollover names, that's awesome! [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 18:16, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

I really like the rollover names too, and I definitely think it helps, but I don't think it solves the problem entirely. We really need a clear indication that these are links. I think that part of the thing here is that the people who are commenting are people who are familiar with the current layout, and already know that these images should be links... but any new viewers that LGPedia draws in could very easily be confused by the proposed setup. Perhaps something like.. a little arrow that says "Click here to learn more about these characters"... or something to that effect should be considered? I'm not sure how to best do this, as obviously I want to keep it as aesthetically pleasing as possible, but I also think functionality and navigability for new users is really important and something we should all keep in mind. Other than that, I really like this design and am on board with going forward with it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:30, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
:Has there been any additional thought given to how to solve this issue? Like I said, as soon as we can fix this, I am totally on board with making this design live... --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 10:47, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
:A suggestion from the person who doesn't really know anything (so please don't take him seriously because this would probably really hard to do) but what if we put "Characters:" to the left of the images? Now the thing that would probably be impossible to do on a wiki: I think it might be cool if we could put buttons to the left and right of the images that when you roll over them, they scroll. This way if there are any additional main characters, we can add them in, and people can just scroll through the list. Yet again, I know nothing so don't yell at me for my incompetence, just an idea. [[User:-R-|-R-]] 18:51, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

===Video List===
I love the design, but I wanted to point out that the video list column extends far beyond the other one. Maybe instead of four video boxes we could have three? Just a thought. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:25, 19 April 2008 (EST)
:I agree, because it's so long, it leaves such a gap at the bottom-left side (me no fan of huge-white spaces). Three video boxes could work, or maybe even making the section titles (i.e. "Lonelygirl15 Universe," "Behing the Scenes," "Other Series & Content") could be bigger? Just throwing out thoughts . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 19:51, 20 April 2008 (CDT)
::Another option could be to just remove the "recent videos" list and just have the link to the complete video list. What good do those additional five videos do, anyway? (I was also trying to innovate a bottom bar for the most recent five videos, but that would probably look weird.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:07, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

:::I have no idea what you guys talking about. When re-sized to 1024, the columns are almost equal, when wide on 1280, only the recent videos peek over. I don't see anything extending "far beyond". Screenshots? Arrows?
:::And, most importantly, are those showstoppers for you?
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 08:22, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
::::In my post I'm refering to the "Recent Videos" list. While its not major, I'm just not a fan of such a huge amount of white space. That said, I'm cool with Shiori's idea of just dropping the list all together, leaving just the link to the complete video list. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:30, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::Are you on a notebook?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:11, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::Bah, since even *if* you count this as a design problem (which I, personally, don't), it still looks better than the current layout, I'll go forward with the move unless there are objections within 21 minutes. If the list is a problem later, we can put it in a collapsed, expandable div/table.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:09, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

I really, really feel that the pictures next to each video should have the same rollover effect that the character icons do. So...you would roll over the picture, and the black filter and video title would be on the picture. It just kinda throws me off-center when the pictures aren't standard. --[[User:Phisho|Phisho]] 18:33, 23 April 2008 (EST)

==Launch==
===Problems===
We are going forward with this? I do not see any resolution on the character icon issue...? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:23, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
:The resolution is, I had a notice '''directly on the portal''' for the past [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Portal:Lonelygirl15&diff=119618&oldid=119583 eleven days] (getting very direct [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Portal:Lonelygirl15&diff=122215&oldid=122136 two days ago]) telling people to note objections and criticism. You are ''still'' the only one who complains about the character icons. In the [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARenegade%2FPortal%3ALonelygirl15&diff=122724&oldid=119695 entire time], people mostly said they liked the design. I had one suggestion to totally change the background color, which was unsigned and not taken serious by ''anyone'' (and would look like crap), one suggestion to put "Characters:" next to the characters box, which, permanently, would destroy the layout, and on hover would be the same time of fix as now, and these remarks about the video list length now, which a) is minor, and can be fixed later, b) I can't even reproduce/understand in the first place, and didn't come up in the month before, so it's likely a taste question anyway, and c) one column has to be longer anyway. Period. It's forced by the way I coded this. Not to mention I already proposed a fix above (collapsed expandable div). So we have one non-serious, anonymous suggestion, one suggestion that only seeks to please you, not specifically mentions the poster actually dislikes the current state, and this minor taste issue today. In the same time, we got three "this looks great!" type of answers, and no one really objects. FH14 and Pheon don't really object - they just don't like the length of a certain content item. Neither do ''you'' really object to the design as a whole, you'd just like to put giant arrows on the character icons.

:Nobody really objects to this redesign, after I made it as public as possible on the pedia, and there was enough time to discuss it. Even with the minor nitpicks people still have, it's way better than the current version. You can argue "OMG THE LINKS ARE INVISIBLE!" all you want, even if they are, the users are not retarded - if they really want to know about the characters, they can click "Characters" until we found a solution for the icons. So yes, I'm moving forward with this ''now''.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:03, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

Renegade, I really did not want to do this, but since when do you have the authority to overrule admins... muchless to disrespect me... or ANY member of this wiki, for that matter? I am reverting your edits until a ''calm'' and ''rational'' '''consensus''' can be reached on this issue. And please take this as your warning, if the attitude displayed in these posts continues, there ''will'' be consequences. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:29, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:I did not realize that this was this close to going live, and I was surprised to see it happen. Frankly, although most people did agree that the new design looks good, the portal is a ''very'' highly viewed page, so I think we need to be absolutely sure we're ready before we make such a change. And in this case I think that means admin backing as well. The old portal works for now, and since there is a dispute we're going to leave it at that until a resolution is reached. And please, ''please'', ''PLEASE'', '''keep things civil'''. Respect is the name of the game here. Just keep that in mind. Kthx.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 00:40, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:Once more, Zoey fucks over community discussion and consensus. Surprise! How many weeks this time until you can be arsed to go on with this? Three? Four? Five? Never?
:Let's be honest here: You're just pissed off because I didn't give you the opportunity to shoot it down in silence. I dared to post it out in the open, so you couldn't just say "no" without reasoning in the shadows. Now you're fucked because your made up reasoning finds no support, so you just claim there is no consensus, even though there was really no objection to the current design, and even though the note was ''on the fucking portal'' for almost two weeks.
:I am sick of this shit. '''If you want to dictate this redesign away, do it already.''' But stop making up bullshit reasons. Our users are not retarded. They ''can'' click "Characters" for character information if they don't realize the icons are links. And there is no need for more discussion for a consensus that needs to be reached, because everybody already likes the design, ''you'' just think our users are too stupid to find character information. In fact, I have been working ''together'' with the community for weeks to create the current state, and the progress and process is very visible above. The only thing standing in the way of this redesign is ''you''. Don't claim anything else.

:And for the record, no matter what you may try to construct here in order to justify your dictatorship - I did ''not'' overrule any administrative decision. You did ''not'' tell me to stop, even though it ''clearly'' said I was going to do it 29 minutes later. Had you wanted me to stop, a simple "stop!" would've have been enough. '''Do not lie and pretend there was an order not to do this.''' There was a clear favor of the redesign over the current design in the community, the redesign works and has been tested in both browsers, and there was no administrative overrule.
:I behaved perfectly within the policies and traditions of this encyclopedia. I just happened to do something ''you personally'' don't like.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:07, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

::Okay, really, give it a rest. I don't care about your personal feelings about Zoey or whatever. You can disagree with Zoey all you want, but there's absolutely no reason to attack her. And it's not just because she's the head admin; you shouldn't talk like that to ''anyone'' on the pedia. So here's what I suggest: Everyone just calm down, take a break, and come back later when you're capable of being respectful and not just vindictive. The portal we have right now has lasted this long--there's no reason why it has to be changed very soon, so let's try to work this out first. But please, only in a respectful manner.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 01:37, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:::Ren, before I say anything else . . . heed Jon's word of advice. Even if we're all adults here, there's simply no need to bring that kind of language and attitude here. You're angry and peeved, we get it. We don't need to read what could be very well be considered a verbal attack. Seriously Ren, keep it civil -- not only for respect of your fellow LGPedians, but also for the sake of not reducing another discussion into a shouting match.

:::Back to the discussion, while there have been about ten different posters on this discussion page, that just not a good consensus. Granted, I know we'd never get every user to give their opinion and I ''know'' you gave them "ample" time to even give an opinion, but like Jon said the Portals are perhaps the most frequent viewed of pages . . . . and we're not even talking about a small change to the Portal like pattern of the character boxes or design of the video column, this is on the WHOLE portal, man. And yes, Admins don't need to rubberstamp yes or no to every decision, but we do have the final judgement whether or not we beleive a proper consensus has been reached. And, IMHO, the lack of discussion here (myself included) just shows such a consensus isn't there and that even some of the more die-hard LGPedians haven't had a chance to properly assess the redesign. Honestly, '''would''' waiting a little longer for some actual discussion ''be so bad?'' We do have lives outside of this Pedia, you know. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 02:00, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

::::And you actually think confirming that the portal is one of the most viewed pages through a ''second'' admin is helping?
::::All you're doing is confirming that there was a notice for almost two weeks on the probably most-viewed page of this encyclopedia. All you're doing is confirming that this was ''not'' a surprising move at all, and that this discussion was as public as it gets. It's ridiculous to pretend there'd be a sudden influx of new discussion participants if we waited longer.
::::The only way to make this discussion more public is to put the notice in 500% font size, bold and red.
::::If you wanna cower in fear of Zoey's wrath, please, do so. I don't blame you. But everybody knows the discussion itself if not going to change. Maybe over a month, we'll get a new nitpick or a new comment, but nothing's going to change. This discussion has discussed everything there was to discussed. The design was adapted again and again and again to fit the community's needs. There was an open discussion from the start, then the participate link, then the general notice on the portal, then the specific notice on the portal, then the direct statement on here.
::::Let me reiterate that: The portal itself said the redesign was coming almost two weeks, and the portal itself said, for two days, it was coming on monday. It is fucking ridiculous you three are behaving like this was a great surprise to any of you.
::::The only reason this is halted is because Zoey is not getting what she wants, and she has the badge to force her will. It's as simple as that.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:16, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::Ren, Jonpro seriously JUST asked that, ''"Everyone just calm down, take a break, and come back later when you're capable of being respectful and not just vindictive."'' Despite this, you have continued to personally attack Zoey. Enough man, this just isn't the place for that. Now, posting a civil response is fine, but you have '''no''' reason to just continue attacking Zoey. As it stands, the three of us don't feel the redesign is necessarily ready to become live, nor do we feel that there's any reason why it has to become live THIS very second. The date it was "planned" to go live was chosen I imagine for efficiency's sake, but it's not like we have a deadline like we did when the KM Portal was first being created.
:::::But once again, before you respond please take the time to take a deep breath. We really don't need another shouting match here. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:41, 22 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::::I have been following the design discussion for some time and not felt the need to comment because I pretty much felt Zoey's comments on that thread said it all. I think the design is quite nice and thanks to Ren for all the hard work. However as pointed out it can be just a little better if we can figure out how to make it clearer that the pictures are icons. Yes, I get the point that it has never been totally clear even with the old design. However this is the perfect opportunity for us to get it right. I am a Mac user and as such i strongly believe that good design should be inherently intuitive to the user. The film strip looks nice and the roll overs were a good first step but I cannot help but feel we are missing one small adjustment to the design that will solve the dilemma once and for all. Now is the time to do that and I would be more than happy to try out designs or contribute in any way to finding a really great solution. I fear that if we take the design live now the importance of this design decision will just be lost and may never reach that final awesome end point that will do the design justice.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:31, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

::::::Pheon, the only thing that really stands out to me in your reply is that you don't deny at all that the notice was very visible, and that it was very visible Monday was planned. Yet none of you complained. So either you ''are'' lying, and you knew full well when it was planned to go live with this, or you're not lying, which means the three administrators of this pedia failed to watch the most-viewed page on it for two to three days - iow, they failed to do their job. Majorly.
::::::There is no ground for you to pretend this is oh-so-surprising. In fact, ''on this very page'' it is documented that you were here on April 20th, whereas I added the "it's happening Monday" notice on the 19th. Yet, there was no "OMG STOP!!!" from you.
::::::Unless you're blind or illiterate, it was very fucking obvious when I was going to do this. Yet, you guys are trying to build this up as a kind of sneak attack where I tried to circumvent the decision-makers. Not gonna happen. If you want to shoot this down, fine. Do it. But I will not let you make up bullshit to justify it.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 10:41, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::::I for not did not see the [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Portal:Lonelygirl15&diff=prev&oldid=122215 notice] that the design was going to go live on Monday, and it's not fair to call me either "blind or illiterate" because of that. You posted it in ''one'' place, on the portal, and made no mention of it here until ''21 minutes'' beforehand. And frankly, I've been pretty busy these last few days, and even if I happened to see the edit in Recent Changes, I probably assumed it was just an update for a new video, as there was no edit summary. And in the few times I likely viewed the portal, I didn't think to look closely at the notice to see that it had changed to indicate a date when the design would go live. In other words, it wasn't as obvious as you make it out to be, and there's no reason to yell at us for missing it. Having said that, you still ''did'' indicate that you were going to make the change a few days beforehand, and there was no ''direct'' objection (although I'd consider Zoey's [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARenegade%2FPortal%3ALonelygirl15&diff=122724&oldid=122722 edit] an indirect objection), so you did follow procedure for the most part. However, that does not at all justify your disrespectful comments toward any of us, and your refusal to stop making them isn't helping your case.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 16:04, 22 April 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::I also missed the notice on the main page and I use LGPedia quite a bit. I think that just goes to show that our eyes (or optical sensors in my case) are creatures of habit and that goes to why design is so very important. I was following the discussion thread and from what I saw the design issue in question had not been resolved and I think thats what we need to get back to.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:59, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

===Solutions===
(''Ignoring the arguing'') Well, I might as well propose a possible solution to the character box problem. Maybe next to Bree's icon there could be a sideways strip of text that says "Characters" something like:

{|cellspacing="0" align="center" style="background-color: transparent;"
|align="center" style="background:#1E2A63; border: 1px solid #1E2A63;width:100px"|'''{{link|link=Characters|text=Characters|color=#ABB8DB}}'''
|}

But, again, on it's side at the end of the row (I'm not exactly sure what the names of the colors used are, so I just used these). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 08:50, 23 April 2008 (EST)

::or we could add something to an extra icon in the film strip row that would just make it clear the icons are buttoms but still keeping the slick design.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 07:54, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

:::Making my own solution, as it seems graphical options might still be in the realm of confusing, I added some text above the character images explaining that they are, in fact, links. It also doesn't kill the layout all that much, so (assuming it can be considered to do the job), everyone should be happy. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:06, 23 April 2008 (CDT)
::::I like the nice (very small) text that you added. I think it fixes the problem without killing the layout. --Greenie [[User:205.243.71.71|205.243.71.71]] 12:19, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

::I really like the page! --Elphielives

User talk:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15

2008-04-20T06:37:24Z

71.187.29.212: /* Shiori's happy nitpicks */

==Shiori's happy nitpicks==
#The contrast on the vid template is still too low. Can we crank it up or something? The "no image available" image is especially making it look jarring with the low contrast.
##Playing around in Photoshop, #9FC6F0 looks nice for the bars.
##Could you make the image background the darker color? I liked that... (Speaking of the image, tone down the "no image available" one; it's crazy dark.)
#Looks squished. Make layout width:100%, pwease.
#I don't even know if this is even possible, but I'll throw it out there anyway. When the layout is changed to 100% width, and then I make my browser window smaller, the character images eat up the side nav. If you could, fix it on the left and maybe set the width in between the images to a variable width so they'd stretch across the whole top bar?

Looks ''really'' good, Ren! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 14:31, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:I think maybe the background needs another color than white.

:#I ''can'' play around with the colors, but let's first hear other opinions. And the "no image available" one was actually made for the previous proposal, I just uploaded it 'cause it's the default filename if no image was set. I'll upload a new one once we know which color we go with.
:#It's designed for 1024px width; can't make it wider without some more photoshop love. So let's hear what others say, first.
:#Given that the character icons should stay away from the dark blue part, if possible, I'd be opposed to that. But then again, I don't know what exactly you did and didn't do to achieve width: 100%, so I can't even reproduce the problem.
:More opinions, anyone?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:00, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

What happens if, at some point, we need to have more or less character icons? Does this require an entire redo in photoshop? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:36, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:The "edit character row" link is there for a reason, Z ;) [[User:Renegade/Portal:Lonelygirl15/Character Row]]
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:21, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

::Right, but what if we add a character, doesn't that throw the width of the character row off? Based on the width of the header? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:14, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Well, depending on how you modify the row, it shrinks or grows...?
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:39, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

{{clr}}
===Vid Template/Image Color(s)===
We're basically agreeing that the colors look good in the vid template, but Ren and I are argue-discussing whether the darker color should be used for the image border or not. So please decide whether the top or bottom version looks better:<br>
[[Image:Compare.gif]]<br>
- [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:34, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

:I like the bottom one better.
::--[[User:TimiN|TimiN]] 19:45, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::I have created an actual (not fabricated :P) comparison:
::[[Image:Portal s3 news color comparison.png|300px]]
::I agree that, put next to each other like this, the darker scheme looks slightly better; but keep in mind that, on the portal, the news are placed next to a giant, dark box, which generates a much different contrast:
::[[Image:Portal s3 news color comparison2.png|300px]]
::And, though I agree the difference is marginal, and the darker scheme doesn't look ''bad'', I do think, placed against the dark box, the lighter scheme works slightly better.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:36, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::My does not think the lighter version is better. :p (When taken from a full-page standpoint, the difference is almost unnoticeable. Meh. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:44, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

I love this new version it sick [[User:OldOak7]]

I think it looks great! [[User:nnnik]]

==Character Icons==
One problem I have with the design now is that it is not clear that you can click on the individual character icons to view the main characters' pages. The icons simply look like part of the design at present. Perhaps putting the names back under the icons will help people understand that they can click those... or does anyone else have any ideas? --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 22:52, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

:You get the normal link hand icon over them, so those not familiar with mediawiki in general should get it by instinct. And even if they don't, [[Characters]] is the first link in the first content box. In a worst case scenario, a confused person just takes one click longer.
:Not to mention that the names of the current character boxes don't look like links either. I click them because I know from experience they are links, not because it's actually obvious.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:40, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::The hand icon appears over every image, so the fact that they appear on the icons does not provide any real clue to the fact that the images actually take you to the characters' pages. The whole point of putting the icons on the front page like that is to give people an easy way to familiarize themselves with the characters. People won't just automatically click the [[Characters]] link. That's like saying we only need to put the stills from each new video, because people will click on them ''knowing'' they can get to the video transcript pages based on the fact that the hand icon is there... and if not, they'll be able to click the "List of Videos" link on the sidebar, which takes them to the list of videos anyways, so what's the point of listing the videos on the portal page anyways? The point is ease of access, which is why the character icons are there in the first place as well.

::And I think there is a big difference between the character icon placement you proposed and the one we have now. Currently, they are in a separate column and each icon has a box with the name of the character underneath. It is much more obvious that you can click those images and/or the links to learn more about the characters than it is on your proposal, where there is no text and the images just look like part of the header design. I think it's important that people know to click these links, so we should find a way to make it obvious that they can. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:46, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Random idea: Would overlaying a link-indicating icon or something work? I can't imagine it looking right with text, which is kind of a problem... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:49, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I added alt text, I think that helps a little. Not sure it solves the problem entirely though... --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:55, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Hence why I said "those not familiar with mediawiki in general should get it by instinct". Those who are new to LGPedia should instinctively react to the cursor change, those who are familiar with LGPedia also know that the portal icons can be clicked.
:::Of course largely labeling them as links would make it clearer, but a caption box like on the current portal will definitely not work. An overlay with the name ''might'' work. But so far, you're the only one mentioning it, so let's hear what others say before we change the design in such a drastic way.
:::In addition, your analogy is wrong - the latest videos are changing almost daily and are on the front page as ''news'', not as permanent content. We are not just providing a link, we are reporting the latest video - and that requires a date at least. In addition, a random still is by far not as clear as a frontal face shot. Some shot of the general LA area, or of Daniel in the rented house, could fit dozens of episodes, so the link wouldn't be clear without text. The List of Videos is also not a replacement, because it shows neither a date or posting, nor a description, nor a viewing link.
:::A link to Daniel's page on Characters ''is'' the same as a link to Daniel's page on the front page.
:::A link with poster on List of Videos is ''not'' the same as a full news post with posting date and watch links.
:::You cannot compare news posts that inform users of the latest information of a video to a static link.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:59, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::Okay, but how is a person supposed to differentiate between the hand icon that comes over the images for the icons and the hand icon that comes over the image for, say, the graphic that says "Lonelygirl15 portal." That image doesn't take them anywhere of relevance, so why should people assume that the icons, which appear to be a part of the larger image, take them anywhere?
::::I agree with you on why we need the whole video template. But I am unsure why this is relevant. Are you trying to argue that the icons shouldn't be there in the first place because they do not report the news? Could you please clarify this?
::::And I completely disagree that a link to Daniel's page on Characters is the same as the link to Daniel's page on the front page. The Characters page contains an image, a clearly identifiable link, and a brief description of the character. The icon on the front page does contain not anything but an image link. And really, on the Characters page, people ''aren't'' supposed to be clicking the image to get to the page (otherwise all of the characters would need images, which most of them do ''not'' have), but the images redirect there as a "just in case."
::::They are not equal. They are different. The icons are on the front page because providing easy links to the main characters is important. We need to find a way to make sure they are emphasized, otherwise they might as well not be there. And unless this is what you are suggesting (in which case we'd need to have an entirely different discussion here), we need to make sure people know they are there and will take them to the content they will, in fact, take them to. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 20:50, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, I for one would prefer names next to the characters. Now, I think Ren said that would be difficult code-wise (I wouldn't know any better, as that's not my expertise) but I still would lean toward names with the characters if only for new visitors to attach names to the faces they see. And while I'm sure that there won't be so much white space on the Portal -- due to the fact this is merely a sandbox and such -- I do want to express that I'm not a fan of so much blank, empty space (i imagine there's something in the works, right Ren?). Again, maybe it's just me, but those are my thoughts. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:29, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::This looks '''awesome''', but I agree with Pheon about the names. I as well am not an expert at coding, but how impossible would it be for it to only say the name when you roll over it? I don't know if that's completely out of the question but I figured I'd throw it out there. Please don't laugh me to scorn! [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 21:37, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::To take it a step further, (I'm pretty sure it's not possible in the Pedia, so you can just consider it rambling) we could do rollover images to let you know the character's name... I think the best idea would be an alt tag with just the character name and some superimposed image letting you know it's a link. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:43, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::I can easily code a div that says "Click here for this Character's page - Daniel" or something when you hover over Daniel's pic. If it works in ''Internet Explorer'', however, depends on if the programmers were drunk one day and actually wrote standards compliant code.
::::::You misunderstood me, pheon. Code-wise, it'd be easy to write. But if you add captions to these images, the design is destroyed. Period.
::::::As for the white-space, it's currently fixed width optimized for a 1024x768 resolution. As noted above, I can try creating a variable width version, but that requires a lot more work on the image. However, given that more whitespace is generally regarded as "lighter" and "easier to grasp" by users, and I don't see anything lacking space, I honestly don't quite see the problem. The news boxes would not be smaller anyway - if anything, they would be just as high, but longer, with the descriptions only filling one line, and the content descriptions would all be in one line.
:::::You missed my point, Z. All I was doing was showing how your analogy of comparing the character icons to the news was invalid. I was not making any statements about the validity of any content item on any page.
:::::And btw, the header can easily be turned into a link to the portal to de-confuse the users, or overlayed by an empty div to de-linkify it. Or used as a CSS background image. Or whatever. What matters is not that the header is a link, but that the character icons are links.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:07, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I said it before, and I'll say it again. Variable width FTW. Make it so! (If you can) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:09, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::The headers are not links anymore and the layout is variable width now.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:08, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Just added charbox template, generating a special overlay effect on FF and IE 7 and upwards, and also changing the link to the character page directly, not to the image page. (Thus making very obvious that this image is a link to a character, not to an image page.)
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:48, 5 April 2008 (CDT)
I have no criticism at all. Maybe it's that I'm not good at this stuff, so I think it looks perfect. Either way LOVE IT!!!! Can't wait to see the finished product. --Greenie [[User:138.210.216.82|138.210.216.82]] 12:17, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
:Looks perfect! I love the rollover names, that's awesome! [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 18:16, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

I really like the rollover names too, and I definitely think it helps, but I don't think it solves the problem entirely. We really need a clear indication that these are links. I think that part of the thing here is that the people who are commenting are people who are familiar with the current layout, and already know that these images should be links... but any new viewers that LGPedia draws in could very easily be confused by the proposed setup. Perhaps something like.. a little arrow that says "Click here to learn more about these characters"... or something to that effect should be considered? I'm not sure how to best do this, as obviously I want to keep it as aesthetically pleasing as possible, but I also think functionality and navigability for new users is really important and something we should all keep in mind. Other than that, I really like this design and am on board with going forward with it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:30, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
:A suggestion from the person who doesn't really know anything (so please don't take him seriously because this would probably really hard to do) but what if we put "Characters:" to the left of the images? Now the thing that would probably be impossible to do on a wiki: I think it might be cool if we could put buttons to the left and right of the images that when you roll over them, they scroll. This way if there are any additional main characters, we can add them in, and people can just scroll through the list. Yet again, I know nothing so don't yell at me for my incompetence, just an idea. [[User:-R-|-R-]] 18:51, 11 April 2008 (CDT)

I love this redesign! You do a nice job, Renegade!- [[User:AzukiLotus]]12 April 2008
:Ditto. This "living room" for the LGPedia "house" feels less like an information overload, and more like a "welcome! won't you come on in?" ;-) --[[user:Nieriel.Manwathiel|Nieriel.Manwathiel]]

==Video List==
I love the design, but I wanted to point out that the video list column extends far beyond the other one. Maybe instead of four video boxes we could have three? Just a thought. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:25, 19 April 2008 (EST)

Final Appeal

2008-04-15T05:02:30Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 459
| image = 0459-Jennie.jpg
| caption = Come on, I can't be a plantcake; I'm so adorable!
| blogger = Jonas
| date = 20080414
| url = {{lg15|566}}
| forumid = 17062
| length = 1:20
| description = This coat-of-arms is our only connection to Bree's Elder. We're so close... yet so far.
| location =
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|lg15|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|hymn of one|sarah}}


| execprod =
| coexecprod =
| assocprod =
| serprod =
| producers =
| lineprod =
| supprod =
| directors =
| camera =
| vidplay =
| headwriter =
| story =
| editor =
| pm =
| ps =
| pa =
| pr =
| ipa =
| animation =
| prodserv =
| music supervisor =

| song =
| cast = {{VidChar|Jonas}}
{{VidChar|Jennie}}
{{VidChar|Lucy}}

| Previous = Shop of Horrors!!!
| Next =
| PreviousB = Cruisin' With The Ladies
| NextB =
}}
{{EpHeader|459}}

==Transcript==
(''The camera zooms in on Lucy, carrying the present from [[Shop of Horrors!!!]], on the dock''.)

'''Jonas:''' We followed Lucy to the dock on Friday and, uh, she left. (''Lucy approaches the loading ramp and hands her ticket to the deckhand''.) So we decided to stay for a while. (''Cut to Jonas''.) Who's that doll for that she's carrying, you know? (''Cut to Lucy boarding the ferry''.) Who's gonna die next for [[Bree's Elder]]? Sick bastard.

We know Bree's Elder's connected to the coat of arms requesting for the [[Mary Annette|marionette]]. (''Cut to a shot of the coat of arms''.) Centuries old, possibly from England... (''Cut to a close up of the symbol and motto''.) The symbol and the quote on it are the work of [[Aleister Crowley|Crowley]]. (''Cut to a close up of the crest''.) And the crest - the things sitting at the top - are two back-to-back phoenixes, which... symbolizes some sort of resurrection.

(''Cut to Jonas standing at the beach''.)

So basically this is our final appeal. Has anyone seen the coat of arms? 'Cause... it's all we got. I'm gonna p-

'''Jennie:''' Hey, there.

'''Jonas:''' Hey, Jennie. (''Turns the camera to show Jennie approaching''.) I'm just gonna finish this up real quickly, okay?

'''Jennie:''' So who's more obsessed right now: Jonas or [[Daniel]]? (''Smiles at the camera''.)

'''Jonas:''' Come on... Jennie... You know why I'm doing this. This is not about me. You know, you're involved with this, too, now.

'''Jennie:''' You're right. I'm sorry. I'll let you finish. (''Begins walking away''.)

'''Jonas:''' Wait for me at the hotel?

'''Jennie:''' Sure. Not gonna wait forever.

(''Jennie grins and walks away. Cut back to Jonas''.)

'''Jonas:''' So if anyone has seen it - this coat of arms - please just let us know. I'm gonna post it at [[LG15.com]]. This is our last chance.

==Notes==
[[Image:CoatOfArms.jpg|thumb|left|The crest of [[Bree's Elder]].]]
*Daniel posted the coat of arms two days previous in the forums [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17051 here].

Happy Food

2008-04-10T05:47:03Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 232
| image = KM0232-Food.jpg
| caption = Chaz doesn't have enough cavities!
| blogger = Lee
| date = 20080409
| url = {{bebo|6319347713}}
| forumid = 680
| length = 5:05
| description = Everyone’s a bit miserable so I thought lashings of E numbers would help!
| location = [[The new flat]]
| tags = {{tags|}}

| execprod =
| coexecprod =
| setprod =
| lineprod =
| pc =
| ic =
| pr =
| directors =
| headwriter =
| vidplay =
| story =
| editor =
| song = "Pressure Tones" and "7 Nine Skank" by Burning Babylon
| cast =
{{VidChar|Lee}}
{{VidChar|Lauren|Emma Pollard}}

| Previous = The Drugs Do Work
| Next =
| PreviousB = Precious Blood: 10PM
| NextB =

| KM = yes
}}
{{EpHeader|KM=yes|232}}

==Transcript==
(''Lee zooms in on chocolate cornflake treats and frosting. Cut to a zoom-in of a bowl of crisps. Cut to a shot of the counter covered in sweets. Cut to a bowl of pretzels, and the words "HAPPY FOOD" appear on screen with a smile emoticon. The camera moves to show a small portion of cookies nearby. Swipe fade to a glass full of gummies. The camera pans to a stack of pineapple slices with a gummy stegosaurus on top and then to a jar filled with saucers. Cut to Lee''.)

'''Lee:''' So. This is where the magic happens. (''Pans to the counter. He zooms in on a plate covered with frosting reading "HAPPY FOOD" with a face - meant to be [[Sophie]] - in the center''.) Welcome to my kitchen wonderland!

(''Cut to Lee setting the camera on the counter. He steps back, showing off a Union Flag apron and smiles''.)

Okay, so it's the first week in the new flat and I have got a little bit of time on my hands. You know what they say; "Life is what happens in between projects." And- everyone's, um... I don't really know how to say- um, miserable? And I don't blame them for it. Anyway, I've decided I'm gonna make my new flatmates a lovely dinner!

(''Lee grabs the camera. It cuts to a shot of four pink frosted donuts with sprinkles and bananas on top, with pig gummies on the plate. He pans to various foods as he talks about them''.)

We take four pink donuts, delicately drizzled with five Percy Pigs, a pint of flying saucers stuffed with succulent sherbet, and - shut your eyes, Jamie Oliver, 'cause we've got a plate of chicken nuggets, and - remembering the five fruit and veg a day - I have bought us a pineapple! And we've got Angel Delight, and jelly!

(''Lee shakes the pan containing the jelly, causing it to ripple. He pans back to his face''.)

Remember: no one is sad with food that wobbles. (''Grins and pans back to the counter''.) This isn't just happy food, this is Lee's happy food. (''Pans back to the plate covered with frosting and giggles''.)

(''Lee moves to the stove''.)

Now, here's something that's taking me a little bit longer to prepare. (''Pulls a fork out of a pot of melted chocolate and cornflakes''.) This is the secret recipe for my chocolate cornflake treats! (''Pans the camera back to his face''.) Now: the thing to remember is to crush the corn flakes while they're still in the bag. (''Pounds a bag of cornflakes against the cabinet and a hole rips in the bottom, spilling the contents onto the counter''.) Think I've revealed too much of the Lee Phillips family secrets already. (''Puts the bag back onto the counter''.)

(''Cut to Lee placing the camera on the counter near the stove, holding a bowl of a pink liquid. He stands back and stirs it with a whisk''.)

All of this culinary stuff is starting to get a little bit difficult. (''Licks the whisk and winces''.) No, I'm going to have to make another bowl.

(''Lauren pokes her head into the kitchen''.)

'''Lauren:''' Can I come in yet, Lee? I'm starving!

'''Lee:''' No, no, Lauren; go away. Go- (''Steps in front of Lauren''.) Lauren, Lauren, avert your eyes. (''Lauren steps into the kitchen and looks behind Lee''.) No, Lauren!

'''Lauren:''' You've got some good stuff in here!

'''Lee:''' Lauren, it's a surprise! (''Lauren grabs a bar of chocolate from the counter and takes a bit out of it''.) Lauren, just get out of the kitchen or I'm gonna have to get all Gordon Ramsay on you.

'''Lauren:''' Okay, chef! You know, I think you could actually cook something here without killing me.

'''Lee:''' Oh! So the magician's magic starts to take its effect! (''Lee and Lauren laugh. Lee turns to the camera''.) Hey, the effect of happy food starts to take its toll! (''Lauren grabs a bag of crisps from the counter''.) Are you (inaudible) to save on [[Charlie]]?

'''Lauren:''' I don't know, I've hardly seen her. She's not even left that room.

'''Lee:''' It's all that stuff with [[Gavin]] and [[Steve]], isn't it? (''Lauren shrugs''.) Do you know what? I don't think she ever really... you know, like, properly mourned. She never got-got over [[Kate]].

'''Lauren:''' She probably missed Gavin.

'''Lee:''' Yeah. I know what she means, though, 'cause I do as well. I'm starting to like him in the end. Hey, but I do understand why she's installed me as her new flatmate. Every house needs a big, strong man.

(''Lee makes a muscle for the camera and kisses it. He whisks the liquid and kisses his other arm. Lauren inflates the bag and pops it behind Lee, causing him to spill the liquid. Lauren laughs''.)

'''Lee:''' Lauren, get out! There's got delicate equipment in here!

(''Lee looks around and sighs. He puts the bowl on the counter, wipes his arm, and turns off the camera. Cut to Lee grabbing the Angel's Delight and a plate full of sweets from the counter. He walks out of the kitchen and down the hall. Lee looks back at the camera, motioning for Lauren to follow him, and stops in front of the final door on the left. He sets the Angel's Delight on the floor and knocks on the door''.)

'''Lee:''' Charlie?

'''Lauren:''' Chazzer?

'''Lee:''' Charlie, we've got you some happy food. (''Looks at the camera''.) Just leave it here. (''Sets the plate on the floor in front of the door. He smiles at the camera and walks past Lauren''.)

(''Cut to black, with text''.)

'''''Text:''''' Lee's Chocolate Cornflake Treat Ingredients

:100g Cornflakes
:120g Dark Chocolate
:10g Hundreds and Thousands

:Method:
:1.Put cornflakes in a plastic bag and lightly crush (don't crush the cornflakes too finely)

:2. Double-boil the dark chocolate over a pot of simmering hot until melted or you can put in the microwave on high for 30 second stir and repeat the process until the chocolate is fully melted.

:3. Add the corn flake into the melted chocolate and stir well using a spatula.

:4. Spoon the coated corn flake into paper cups or ring mould then flatten the top with a spoon.

:5. Decorate it with chocolate bits or 100s & 1000s, cool in fridge for at least 20 mins to harden before serving.

==Notes==
*This video confirms that Lee and Charlie are flatmates, and suggests that Lauren is also rooming with them.
*John Lennon said "life is what happens to us while we’re making other plans" not "between projects"

Happy Food

2008-04-10T01:56:03Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 232
| image = KM0232-Food.jpg
| caption = Chaz doesn't have enough cavities!
| blogger = Lee
| date = 20080409
| url = {{bebo|6319347713}}
| forumid = 680
| length = 5:05
| description = Everyone’s a bit miserable so I thought lashings of E numbers would help!
| location = [[The new flat]]
| tags = {{tags|}}

| execprod =
| coexecprod =
| setprod =
| lineprod =
| pc =
| ic =
| pr =
| directors =
| headwriter =
| vidplay =
| story =
| editor =
| song = "Pressure Tones" and "7 Nine Skank" by Burning Babylon
| cast =
{{VidChar|Lee}}
{{VidChar|Lauren|Emma Pollard}}

| Previous = The Drugs Do Work
| Next =
| PreviousB = Precious Blood: 10PM
| NextB =

| KM = yes
}}
{{EpHeader|KM=yes|232}}

==Transcript==
(''Lee zooms in on chocolate cornflake treats and frosting. Cut to a zoom-in of a bowl of crisps. Cut to a shot of the counter covered in sweets. Cut to a bowl of pretzels, and the words "HAPPY FOOD" appear on screen with a smile emoticon. The camera moves to show a small portion of cookies nearby. Swipe fade to a glass full of gummies. The camera pans to a stack of pineapple slices with a gummy stegosaurus on top and then to a jar filled with saucers. Cut to Lee''.)

'''Lee:''' So. This is where the magic happens. (''Pans to the counter. He zooms in on a plate covered with frosting reading "HAPPY FOOD" with a face - meant to be [[Sophie]] - in the center''.) Welcome to my kitchen wonderland!

(''Cut to Lee setting the camera on the counter. He steps back, showing off a Union Flag apron and smiles''.)

Okay, so it's the first week in the new flat and I have got a little bit of time on my hands. You know what they say; "Life is what happens in between projects." And- everyone's, um... I don't really know how to say- um, miserable? And I don't blame them for it. Anyway, I've decided I'm gonna make my new flatmates a lovely dinner!

(''Lee grabs the camera. It cuts to a shot of four pink frosted donuts with sprinkles and bananas on top, with pig gummies on the plate. He pans to various foods as he talks about them''.)

We take four pink donuts, delicately drizzled with five Percy Pigs, a pint of flying saucers stuffed with succulent sherbet, and - shut your eyes, Jamie Oliver, 'cause we've got a plate of chicken nuggets, and - remembering the five fruit and veg a day - I have bought us a pineapple! And we've got Angel Delight, and jelly!

(''Lee shakes the pan containing the jelly, causing it to ripple. He pans back to his face''.)

Remember: no one is sad with food that wobbles. (''Grins and pans back to the counter''.) This isn't just happy food, this is Lee's happy food. (''Pans back to the plate covered with frosting and giggles''.)

(''Lee moves to the stove''.)

Now, here's something that's taking me a little bit longer to prepare. (''Pulls a fork out of a pot of melted chocolate and cornflakes''.) This is the secret recipe for my chocolate cornflake treats! (''Pans the camera back to his face''.) Now: the thing to remember is to crush the corn flakes while they're still in the bag. (''Pounds a bag of cornflakes against the cabinet and a hole rips in the bottom, spilling the contents onto the counter''.) Think I've revealed too much of the Lee Phillips family secrets already. (''Puts the bag back onto the counter''.)

(''Cut to Lee placing the camera on the counter near the stove, holding a bowl of a pink liquid. He stands back and stirs it with a whisk''.)

All of this culinary stuff is starting to get a little bit difficult. (''Licks the whisk and winces''.) No, I'm going to have to make another bowl.

(''Lauren pokes her head into the kitchen''.)

'''Lauren:''' Can I come in yet, Lee? I'm starving!

'''Lee:''' No, no, Lauren; go away. Go- (''Steps in front of Lauren''.) Lauren, Lauren, avert your eyes. (''Lauren steps into the kitchen and looks behind Lee''.) No, Lauren!

'''Lauren:''' You've got some good stuff in here!

'''Lee:''' Lauren, it's a surprise! (''Lauren grabs a bar of chocolate from the counter and takes a bit out of it''.) Lauren, just get out of the kitchen or I'm gonna have to get all Gordon Ramsay on you.

'''Lauren:''' Okay, chef! You know, I think you could actually cook something here without killing me.

'''Lee:''' Oh! So the magician's magic starts to take its effect! (''Lee and Lauren laugh. Lee turns to the camera''.) Hey, the effect of happy food starts to take its toll! (''Lauren grabs a bag of crisps from the counter''.) Are you (inaudible) to save on [[Charlie]]?

'''Lauren:''' I don't know, I've hardly seen her. She's not even left that room.

'''Lee:''' It's all that stuff with [[Gavin]] and [[Steve]], isn't it? (''Lauren shrugs''.) Do you know what? I don't think she ever really... you know, like, properly mourned. She never got-got over [[Kate]].

'''Lauren:''' She probably missed Gavin.

'''Lee:''' Yeah. I know what she means, though, 'cause I do as well. I'm starting to like him in the end. Hey, but I do understand why she's installed me as her new flatmate. Every house needs a big, strong man.

(''Lee makes a muscle for the camera and kisses it. He whisks the liquid and kisses his other arm. Lauren inflates the bag and pops it behind Lee, causing him to spill the liquid. Lauren laughs''.)

'''Lee:''' Lauren, get out! There's got delicate equipment in here!

(''Lee looks around and sighs. He puts the bowl on the counter, wipes his arm, and turns off the camera. Cut to Lee grabbing the Angel's Delight and a plate full of sweets from the counter. He walks out of the kitchen and down the hall. Lee looks back at the camera, motioning for Lauren to follow him, and stops in front of the final door on the left. He sets the Angel's Delight on the floor and knocks on the door''.)

'''Lee:''' Charlie?

'''Lauren:''' Chazzer?

'''Lee:''' Charlie, we've got you some happy food. (''Looks at the camera''.) Just leave it here. (''Sets the plate on the floor in front of the door. He smiles at the camera and walks past Lauren''.)

(''Cut to black, with text''.)

'''''Text:''''' Lee's Chocolate Cornflake Treat Ingredients

:100g Cornflakes
:120g Dark Chocolate
:10g Hundreds and Thousands

:Method:
:1.Put cornflakes in a plastic bag and lightly crush (don't crush the cornflakes too finely)

:2. Double-boil the dark chocolate over a pot of simmering hot until melted or you can put in the microwave on high for 30 second stir and repeat the process until the chocolate is fully melted.

:3. Add the corn flake into the melted chocolate and stir well using a spatula.

:4. Spoon the coated corn flake into paper cups or ring mould then flatten the top with a spoon.

:5. Decorate it with chocolate bits or 100s & 1000s, cool in fridge for at least 20 mins to harden before serving.

==Notes==
*Lee appears to be using ashtrays as dishes.
*This video confirms that Lee and Charlie are flatmates, and suggests that Lauren is also rooming with them.
*John Lennon said "life is what happens to us while we’re making other plans" not "between projects"

Happy Food

2008-04-09T21:18:58Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

Precious Blood: 6PM

2008-04-07T03:51:19Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 224
| image = KM224-MichelleClore.jpg
| caption = Enochian - [[Bree Avery]] - Enochian
| blogger = Charlie
| date = 20080405
| url = {{KM|272}}
| forumid = 660
| length = 7:13
| description = ...
| location = [[KateModern minor locations#Precious Blood bunker|The Precious Blood bunker]]
| tags = {{tags|}}

| execprod =
| coexecprod =
| setprod =
| lineprod =
| pc =
| ic =
| pr =
| directors =
| headwriter =
| vidplay =
| story =
| editor =
| song =
| cast =
{{VidChar|Gavin}}
{{VidChar|Charlie}}
{{VidChar|Lauren|Emma Pollard}}
{{VidChar|Steve}}
{{VidChar|Kate's Watcher|Pete Gibbons}}
{{VidChar|Michelle Clore|Valerie Cutko}}
{{VidChar|Michelle Clore's Shadow|KateModern cameos#Mike GLC{{!}}Mike GLC}}

| Previous = Precious Blood: 5PM
| Next = Precious Blood: 7PM
| PreviousB = Precious Blood: 4PM
| NextB =

| KM = yes
}}
{{EpHeader|KM=yes|224}}

(''Charlie approaches Gavin who is on his laptop''.)

'''Gavin:''' (''looking up'') He's not coming is he?

'''Charlie:''' No.

'''Gavin:''' (''closing laptop and getting up'') Okay, let's get the fuck out of here.

'''Charlie:''' We can't leave without Lauren and Steve!

'''Gavin:''' (''turning to face Charlie'') What? You just said you didn't even know if they were still here!

'''Charlie:''' Yeah, but I can't be sure.

'''Gavin:''' (''growing agitated'') Be sure of what? That we get ourselves killed by a drugged up maniac? Com'on!

''Charlie:''' You can go if I want, but I'm staying!

(''Sounds of footsteps running, Charlie swivels camera to face tunnel. Enter Steve and Lauren running.'')

'''Lauren:''' Oh my god! Oh my god, are you okay?

'''Gavin:''' St-Steve!

'''Charlie:''' Yeah, we're both okay.

'''Gavin:''' Are they after you?

'''Steve:''' Yeah, it looks that way.

'''Gavin:''' Yeah, well, let's not wait around for him to finish the job. Let's go, come on! (''Gavin and Lauren starts to leave. Charlie begins to back up.'')

'''Steve:''' No!

(''Gavin and Lauren turn around. Charlie stops.'')

'''Gavin:''' Whatcha mean: no?

'''Steve:''' This ends now! Lauren's safe, okay? I'm going to make sure that Terrance pays!

INCOMPLETE!

==Notes==

*[[Michelle Clore]] mentions [[Bree]] which may indicate that the two series are going to morph together.

Precious Blood: 6PM

2008-04-07T03:48:02Z

71.187.29.212: /* Transcript */

Precious Blood: 5PM

2008-04-06T23:46:45Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 223
| image = KM223-LittlePigs.jpg
| caption = Little Piiiigs...
| blogger = Steve
| date = 20080405
| url = {{KM|270}}
| forumid = 658
| length = 8:44
| description = ...
| location = [[KateModern minor locations#Precious Blood bunker|The Precious Blood bunker]]
| tags = {{tags|}}

| execprod =
| coexecprod =
| setprod =
| lineprod =
| pc =
| ic =
| pr =
| directors =
| headwriter =
| vidplay =
| story =
| editor =
| song =
| cast =
{{VidChar|Terrence}}
{{VidChar|Lauren|Emma Pollard}}
{{VidChar|Steve}}

| Previous = Precious Blood: 4PM
| Next = Precious Blood: 6PM
| NextB = Precious Blood: 8PM

| KM = yes
}}
{{EpHeader|KM=yes|223}}

==Transcript==
{{transcript incomplete}}

==Notes==
*This video confirms that [[Kate]] died while Terrence was attempting to abduct her.
*Shortly after this video was posted, [[Sophie]] hosted a live chat. [[Precious Blood#5PM BST|Click here]] for details.
*This video confirms that Terrence abducted [[Lauren]]'s sister.

A Stranger Calls

2008-04-03T21:27:57Z

71.187.29.212: /* Notes */

{{Blog
| name = {{PAGENAME}}
| number = 451
| image = strangercalls.JPG
| caption = How do you work this thing?
| blogger = Jennie
| date = 20080402
| url = {{lg15|558}}
| forumid = 16925
| length = 2:19
| description = This is getting scary.
| location = [[The rented house]]
| tags = {{tags|lonelygirl15|Gina|bree|danielbeast|jonastko|sarah|hymn of one}}


| execprod =
| coexecprod =
| assocprod =
| serprod =
| producers =
| lineprod =
| supprod =
| directors =
| camera =
| vidplay =
| headwriter =
| story =
| editor =
| pm =
| ps =
| pa =
| pr =
| ipa =
| animation =
| prodserv =
| music supervisor =

| song = "When Paper Cuts Scissors" by Battle Alaska
| cast = {{VidChar|Daniel}}
{{VidChar|Jonas}}
{{VidChar|Sarah}}
{{VidChar|Jennie}}
{{VidChar|Gina}}

| Previous = Fries And A Shakedown
| Next =

| PreviousB = Recovered Memory
| NextB =
| PreviousC =
| NextC =
}}
{{EpHeader|451}}

==Transcript==
(''We find Daniel, Jonas, Sarah, Jennie, and Gina having a barbecue''.)

'''Daniel:''' Come on, I mean it's called "American Idol" and that guy: Australian.

(''Daniel throws football to Jonas. Jonas laughs''.)

'''Jennie:''' Well I think he's so hot!

(''All laugh''.)

'''Jonas:''' Hot? Please! (''Jonas throws football back to Daniel''.) I'm sick of that guy and his phony accent. (''Imitates Michael Johns on American Idol singing "Bohemian Rhapsody."'')

(''All laugh''.)

'''Sarah:'''(''In the background'') Clown!

'''Jonas:''' Sorry.

'''Daniel:''' (''To Sarah'') At least we know he's not your type. He's not some creepy cheeseball in a BMW.

'''Sarah:''' Oh, that's very funny! At least, uh, you know, he HAS a car!

(''Chorus of "ooh"s''.)

'''Daniel:''' Ooh, ouch!

'''Sarah:''' Snap!

'''Daniel:''' I'm hit!

'''Jennie:''' And what about you, Miss Gina? Who do you like?

'''Gina:''' I like Jason, the guy with the dreads. So beautiful!

(''Jennie laughs''.)

'''Daniel:''' Beautiful...

'''Gina:''' He is!

'''Jonas:''' I'm sorry, beautiful?

'''Gina:''' He's got the most sparkly eyes ever!

(''All laugh''.)

'''Jonas:''' Sparkly eyes! Sparkly eyes. Why do girls always fall for the sensitive crap?

'''Sarah:''' Sparkly eyes aside, I don't understand why he can't just wash his hair. I mean, it's gross.

'''Jennie:''' How 'bout you Daniel?

'''Daniel:''' (''Catches football'') I'm into Carly. Got those tattoos, that Irish accent...

(''All chuckle''.)

'''Daniel:''' What!? She's a fox!

'''Jonas:''' (''Catches football'') A fox... dude, she'd eat you for lunch.

(''Jonas throws football to Sarah''.)

'''Jonas:''' Heads up.

(''Sarah fumbles with the football with one hand''.)

'''Sarah:''' Do I LOOK athletic?

'''Jonas:''' No.

(''Sound of a dog yapping is heard in the background''.)

'''Sarah:''' Alright, which one of you wackos has the dog bark ring tone?

'''Daniel:''' It's not me!

'''Jonas:''' Not I!

'''Both:''' Nope!

(''Camera pans quickly to Gina, then follow Jonas inside the house where he is tracking the source of the barking. Daniel is behind Jonas''.)

'''Jonas:''' (''To Daniel'') Yeah, you're right. Carly is kind of cute.

'''Daniel:''' Thank you. I'm telling you...

'''Jonas:''' You're welcome.

'''Daniel:''' Where's it coming from?

(''Jonas and Daniel head into a bedroom''.)

'''Daniel:''' It's in here.

(''Jonas and Daniel walk to the bed''.)

'''Daniel:''' (''Daniel points to a phone'') Right there. Is that yours?

'''Jonas:''' Nah. That's not my phone.

(''Camera pans into the phone and back to Daniel, Jonas, and Gina''.)

'''Jonas:''' Huh!

'''Gina:''' I was in here two minutes ago and that wasn't there.

'''Daniel:''' What?

'''Jonas:''' They could still be here. Come on!

(''Jonas tags Daniel and the two run off, looking for whoever left the phone. Gina picks up the phone''.)

(''Jonas and Daniel return''.)

'''Daniel:''' Hey, nobody's in here.

'''Gina:''' It has a new voice mail.

'''Daniel:''' Holy shit, there's a message?

'''Jonas:''' Gina, can we listen to that?

(''Gina nods her head in approval and hands phone to Jonas''.)

(''Camera pans to screen which reads, "Connected, Voice Mail"''.)

'''Voicemail:''' You have one new message. (''Beep'') (''Voice of Bree's mom, Elizabeth Avery'') You are on a witch hunt. Read a book to reverse your thinking. (''Backwards speech'')

(''Camera pans to Daniel''.)

'''Daniel:''' What the hell is this gibberish? I'm gonna upload it as an mp3 on the forum. Jonas and Jennie... they're taking care of Gina. She's pretty shaken up. I just... I can't believe that's Bree's mom on the voice mail.

==Notes==
*The mp3 of the voicemail is available [http://www.sendspace.com/file/7dt6p3 here], Daniel's thread is [http://www.lg15.com/lonelygirl15/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=16926 here].
*The reversed audio is poorly pronounced Dutch. Roughly translated it says: "Friday, the park where you were, go look there."
*The TAAG extensively discusses American Idol, which could be a new [[product placement]] deal. It is also possible that the conversation was created for the amusement of fans (conversations regarding the show regularly occur in the [[IRC|LG15 chat]]).
*TAAG drink Pacifico [[beer]].
*Daniel says he likes Carly, from American Idol, who shares the name of [[Carly Jones]], the actress who played [[Mallory]].