LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony

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This talk page contains one or more discussions that have not yet been resolved. Feel free to add your own comment to these discussion(s) or remove this template once the discussion(s) have been resolved. The discussion(s) are Revamping FanFic .
A couple of LGPedia admins (Jonpro & Phoenician) take a breather to admire the view from Lucy's Balcony.
Zoey, one of your LGPedia admins, frolics with the doves on Lucy's Balcony.


Welcome to Lucy's Balcony, a place to ask questions or discuss general issues about the LGPedia. This page is intended to be a place where admins and active editors can discuss ongoing issues, ideas and concerns. To start a new thread, click here. Please remember to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end.

For old or inactive conversations, visit Lucy's archive.



Video Dates In Pages

This is not a critical issue, but something worth discussion. At this point we are 18 months into the lg15 series. There are areas of Lg15 plot which were very important at certain points (like LaRezisto, or Gemma, or Tachyon), that later resolved or become less important. When viewing pages which discuss key character or plot issues (like Gemma, or Spencer, or the Order of Denderah, etc.), I myself find it useful to know when the videos about that subject were released, without having to click on every video link. I think in a chronological way. Thus, I sometimes put video dates into an lgpedia article to let readers easily know when something occurred in the context of the whole storyline. Like, for Ted McKinley i put it "He first appeared at the press conference filmed in What's Going on? (Oct. 19, 2007), where he helped ...". That way the reader easily knows, ok, this Ted guy is not relevant to the first year of the show.

We have no set convention for dealing with this issue that I am aware of, and wondered whether we should set one. I am not saying that every video link needs a date after it like a legal brief would cite cases, but there are articles where it would be useful. (For example, The order article has them; Emma does not). Even if we don't come up with any policy, I wanted to raise the issue for people to think about when editing. Thoughts? --Milowent 08:19, 20 December 2007 (CST)

Revamping FanFic

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Discussion has been moved.
Please continue the discussion here: The Mighty FanFic Revamp: Part Deux

The "Plan"

Right now, I think we are faced with a situation where the LGPedia has become overloaded with fan fiction pages and this is a problem. Now, don't get me wrong, I am absolutely not saying that fan fiction pages on the pedia are bad. Quite the opposite, I'm saying that I think they're good! But with the massive amounts of scattered info we have now, I think we are making it much harder for anyone to really understand what's going on. We also have a lot of extraneous pages, (like video transcripts for obscure series that do not add value to the section on that series) which ultimately only overwhelms anyone who comes here to learn more about a fanfic series.

So, what I propose is this. I think that we should do a massive cleanup of the fanfic section of the site. I think that instead of treating the section as a free-for-all, we should try to get some sort of streamlined guide to just how each series will be treated.

The Types

I think we should divide the fanfic up into five types as far as how we deal with them:

Type 1 - These series get a single page similar to the current Lonelyjew15 page. They consist of one page where all the information you'd need to get an understanding of the series is found. The main things that show up on these pages are plot summary, character info, and important links for watching and following the story more closely. There can be other sections, such as a "Notes" section, but mostly the pages should follow the same general format. The page will serve as a "run-down" to the series it covers.

Type 2 - Unlike Type 1 series, Type 2 series will all be collected together on one massive page where each series will have its own description. Most of the time the descriptive info on these series is similar to what is contained in a Type 1 series, but to a lesser extent.

Type 3 - Like with any rule, there can and probably will be exceptions. What would go on these pages would be determined on an "as needed" basis.

Type 4 - This type covers any major relevant ARGs or series. Since series in this type tend to be complex, they often will require more than one page. Cassieiswatching and redearth88 are great examples of this. Because of the large-scale undertaking of these series, this type will have to be admin approved before they can go forward.

Type 5 - There are some series that simply don't belong on the LGPedia at all (adult film entertainment, anyone? :)). These ones do not need pages.

Qualifying

I think each series needs to be examined individually to determine where it best fits within the above types. A strong case should have to be made regarding why any particular series should receive a type of page. Some good reasons would be: number of subscribers, average number of views per video, notibility in the Breeniverse, and many more. Because of this, I believe we should evaluate each series independantly.

If the idea takes off, I'm happy to create a page where we can discuss statuses for each series. I'm not going to do that now though, because I want to make sure people are on board for the idea first.

Hopefully you guys like this idea, and hopefully you are on board with it! I truly believe it will do wonders for both getting more editors (who now mostly sit befuddled, wondering how to add such elaborate fanfic pages) and for getting new viewers for fanfic series, as viewers will be less confused when the content is laid out in a neat fashion. Please let me know what you think!!! --Zoey 02:57, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Comments

Yes, I made a section for comments, this would be too confusing otherwise, lol. --Zoey 02:57, 21 December 2007 (CST)
Well, if there's one project to rocket us to 2008, it would be this. Everything above sounds like a great starting point. To clarify, videos must be fiction, yes, in order to qualify for the above types. They can't just be a LG/KM fan responding, commenting, or spoofing (of course, if they've made themselves into an in-universe fictional character then that's different). I don't know, I just get the feeling that we're going to have to be painstakenly detailed in our discussions in the matter :P --Pheon 03:09, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Since I've been trying to get rid of the fan-series mess ever since I joined, I of course support this motion, but I'd like rules on series template creation to be included, i.e. whether your "Type 4" series should get their own blog- and other templates, or if they should use stuff like FakeBlog. I don't quite feel like eliminating another dozen uselessly created, outdated fan blog templates.
It should also be possible to create a Template:FanCharBlock, that simply takes a page and styling options as arguments - so you'd have one fan-char-block template, and the contents would be located at pages like Redearth88/charblock.
I do think your typification scale is counterintuitive, though - imo, it should be an ascending or descending scale, e.g.
Level 0 No pages or, alternatively, Tier 1 Full coverage
Level 1 Single page, few information descending instead of Tier 2 Tier 3 Exceptions
Level 2 Single page, comprehensive information ascending Tier 3 Single page, comprehensive information
Level 3 Level 2 exceptions Tier 4 Single page, few information
Level 4 Full coverage Tier 5 No pages
No matter how we name a series's grade, we have to find an acceptable way to rate them that doesn't look like pure arbitrariness to the community...something with hard data, like combined viewcount of the first twenty videos or something, with no chance to be selected before the series reaches at least twenty vids (unless it ends before that).
Beyond that, I suggest creating a Portal:Community, or use the existing (unused and barely known) LGPedia:Community Portal page to create a portal similar to the series ones, which only reports about Tier 1/Level 5/Type 4 series - like new Redearth videos released, link to series mainpages and similar things.
And more or less independent from that, the topic of spoofs that Pheon brought up is interesting...although I agree that mere replies should (of course) not be listed, certain spoofs should at least be collected on a central "LG15 Spoofs" page or something similar (or do we have something like that already?) - because especially milo's recent works are quite funny and deserve long-term exposure.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:07, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Let me just clarify, this discussion is JUST for fanfic SERIES and how they will be treated on the pedia. Any discussion about what to do about it after the fact is arbitrary at this point, as creating a portal cannot happen unless we have some sort of focus. If we want to create a portal, or any other means of featuring the fanfic AFTER THE FACT, that discussion should take place after the fact. So let's please not discuss that at this time.

Also, I agree that there are many notable spoof videos and other notable single videos. I don't really think we need to decide anything definite for that at the moment, because that's not really what this discussion is about. However, I think making a single page where we list all of the videos with some sort of description or whatnot would work. Really though, that's also something we can discuss after the fact if need be, and not what this discussion should focus on.

Thanks. --Zoey 18:47, 21 December 2007 (CST)


Some quick points...

  • I don't really get all this levels and tiers stuff. For one thing it does help new series. If someone starts a new series and wants to make character pages or transcript pages why should they be penalized from doing so just because they are new?
  • Second "Fan Fiction" is a bad catch all category. The accepted industry related term is User Generated Content or (UGC), and while that applies to derivative series it doesn't apply to original series. The distinction in my mind being that a story be dependent on being a user of the site.
  • I think you should really work with theCs and BK on this. There is a upcoming redesign that will effect UGC and the way it's presented and I assume terminology figures into that. I would think it would be logical tha the lgpedia be consistent with that.

--Immortal1 21:50, 21 December 2007 (CST)

In reply to your points, in order:
  • The idea is not to "penalize" anybody. The idea is to keep the LGPedia clean. When a new series starts out, there is no sure-fire way of knowing how many hits they'll get, how notable they'll be, whether they'll even stick around, etc. Plenty of times we have people create something on the LGPedia when their series is new, and then stop adding things, which either leaves the burden of keeping a minor series up to date on the LGPedians, or leaves the LGPedia looking messy and incomplete, which is not "good for buisness," if you will. We have also had new series come on and create a lot of pages (some of whom eventually stopped, and the burden was shifted on to LGPedians, often me :() and then they decided they no longer wanted their pages on LGPedia, and asked us to delete all of that hard work. That just seems counter-productive. Instead, what makes sense, at least to me, is when a new series starts, their content can be featured on a smaller scale, and as they progress and we see what happens, we can easily promote the series to a higher level. There is nothing that says that the "level" or "tier" or whatever term we use is set in stone. Like I said, we are not looking to "penalize" anyone, but to keep things clean and effective from a Pedia standpoint.
  • The term "fan fiction" is used in this dicussion simply because it is what the "Category" on LGPedia is called and has been since... well, I'd say the dawn of time, but I'm not sure how accurate that is :P. Either way, it is used in this discussion for that reason, and not to disrespect any UGC or other content-creators.
  • Of course BK and the C's can be in on this discussion. But I wanted to bring it to LGPedia first, as this is, after all, a community site, and when I present the thoughts to BK/C's, I figured it is best to have a solid idea of where the community stands.
Hope this clears some stuff up, at least about where I'm coming from! --Zoey 22:14, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Immortal1 said:
I don't really get all this levels and tiers stuff. For one thing it does help new series. If someone starts a new series and wants to make character pages or transcript pages why should they be penalized from doing so just because they are new?
Counter-question: Why should a "series" that has barely released one episode occupy one episode page, one general description page, two character pages, two "xxx's blog" categories, a general category, a blog template and a character index template?
Just to add some math to Zoey's reply: We're talking about 9 pages for a "series" of one episode with two characters. If the "series"'s creators then decide to be even more important and add pages for the actors, director and other staff, as well as filmography categories for them, then you're (with only one camera man as staff) at 19 pages for one episode with two characters already.
And now imagine this: The "series" gets a mere 50 views on youtube, adds a second episode that never gets added to the pedia, and two weeks later, the projects is dead. And we're stuck with 19 meaningless pages, just because somebody made one video.
I have said this in the past, but I think I'll have to repeat it: I have no intent to belittle the efforts of the content creating part of the community - but the fact that somebody somewhere made something and declared it to be connected to the Breeniverse does not automatically make it significant enough to be included on LGPedia.
There is certain stuff that, no matter how much effort and love was invested in it, the general community just doesn't care about. The deciding factors for LGPedia pages are prominence and impact of the page's subject matter - not personal vanity.
Just think about it this way: There are canon characters and actors of the official main series that don't have their own pages - if we don't even give every canon character his own page, why should we add pages for non-canon characters that only five people in the community know so far?
If a series grows and becomes popular, it is inevitable to branch it out into multiple pages and categorize it - simply to conquer the growing amount of information. But if all information on a series fits on one page with no loss of clarity, then that's a pretty good sign it doesn't need multiple pages.
Zoey: Touching that topic, maybe we should assign "series maintainers" for branching out series. i.e. if LeetBlogger15 wants to add separate episode pages for a medium series, we could allow it under the condition that he actively maintains them, and delete them straight away if he doesn't. That way, series of a certain size could branch out without you getting a headache over half-finished pages and dead links. If it looks like crap and the page isn't maintained, it just gets deleted and the creator loses his chance to branch out due to lack of encyclopaedic interest (b/c, if other people had cared for the pages, they'd have fixed them).
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 15:49, 22 December 2007 (CST)

My response to this whole thing:

I love the idea of categorizing UGC/FanFic like this. Right now, the 'Pedia is a big mess full of barely notable "series" and the characters of that "series." (I have to say - and am sorry to say - that I am responsible with the community for a lot of that clutter.)

And I love Zoey's original Type 1, Type 2, Type 3, Type 4, and Type 5 ideas. However, I'm a bit confused as to what Type 3 is. Could anyone clear that up for me? What exactly are you talking about by exceptions? Hmm?

Just some comments/clear community understandings of Type 1... So, what I'm understanding is that Type 1 is a notable video series with more than 4 main characters and at least more than 15 videos. Type 1 series (whether they are Fan Fiction or User Generated Content) would only get 1 page with a template - however, I'm not liking the current fact that the Type 1 example Lonelyjew15 has a Person template... shouldn't there be like a FanShow template? The sections on the Type 1 series page would include a summary at the top (no section given), a characters section with brief character blurbs and actors if known (Characters and Cast section), a section with the production credits, if available (Production Crew section), and a section with links to where fans could watch the series and if there are any forums about it, etc. (External Links section). They would be in Category:Type 1 fan fiction.

Now onto Type 2... My understanding is that Type 2 is basically a Type 1 that is not as notable. Basically the same stuff, with less comprehensive information. Right? They would be in Category:Type 2 fan fiction.

Type 3... I do not understand what a Type 3 is. Could somebody please clear this up for the community? They would be in Category:Type 3 fan fiction.

Type 4... Major ARGs or fan series that are very notable, such as Redearth88 or Cassieiswatching, would get more than one page with Major character pages, Cast pages, Episode pages, etc. The main series page would be included in Category:Type 4 fan fiction.

Type 5... tsk tsk. Type 5 doesn't belong on the Pedia. No categories, please.

About using the Community Portal... Renegade, I like your idea about using the now hardly used Community Portal as sort of a portal for fan fiction. :) Type 4 would get episode pages linked, and it would be noted whenever Type 1, Type 2, or Type 3 released videos (they would just get linked to their YouTube video page, however).

)

Comments? Concerns? Questions?

Thanks,

  •Silver•   Talk | Contribs 13:07, 23 December 2007 (CST)
Zoey specifically stated we're not supposed to discuss portals or any other "later" stuff, I think we should respect that. We'll have enough time to do that once we figured out which content is important enough in the first place.
As for elaborating on the types, my previous table makes it pretty clear, imo: You have one "category" of series that get no coverage at all, simply because they're not notable. The next level gets a single page, with maybe a paragraph or two, giving an overview of the series. The next level still gets only a single page, but more comprehensive information, like a list of episodes and characters, and a general plot outline. The level after that is the "exception" level - these are theoretically on the level before, only big enough for a single page, but for a special reason get the big treatment - Lonelygirl362436 would be such an example. It only has 1 1/2 human characters and three episodes, so it shouldn't get the full set of pages - but it was made by the Creators and had very high prominence in the community, so gets treated like the next and highest level: A full set of pages and categories, akin to the canon series.
And yes, it'd be possible to create a full set of customizable fan templates to be used, in order to eliminate all the custom saved ones.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 14:43, 23 December 2007 (CST)
Just to add my input here, I like the idea. Of course, all the details have to be ironed out, and one inherent difficulty with the system is that it is somewhat subjective. To fix this somewhat, I do think some objective standard should be set (as has been mentioned) like number of views or number of videos in order for a series to reach a certain level/tier. Personally I think view count would be better since having a lot of videos does not necessarily mean that the series is popular. For including videos on the massive "fan fiction" page (or whatever it's called), I think we should be fairly liberal in what gets added. Obviously, we don't want to be too liberal, but it takes minimal effort to add a short description about a series, and it can provide much-needed publicity for a new series. Maybe we could even split this page up into different types of fanfic series, like ARGs, spoofs (if we include them), spinoffs, etc. This should allow more series to be added without things looking as cluttered. Clearly, then, if we're liberal about this page, we'd be much more conservative about series which get more coverage. Writing an entire page on a series can take some time, and writing transcripts can take a long time (Jonas Conference Call anyone?), and there's no point wasting time writing them if no one really cares. Oh, and I like the idea of the customizable fan templates, Renegade. That'll standardize things and remove a lot of clutter. This whole thing is definitely a touchy subject, but I think everyone is handling it well. I hope we reach a good solution because this is something that's needed to be done for a long time now.--Jonpro 19:48, 23 December 2007 (CST)
I don't understand why the number of main characters in a show needs to be a factor in deciding whether or not it is worthy of a certain rank/class/type/tier/level/zone/whatever. ItsCassie, anyone? --Rekidk 19:52, 23 December 2007 (CST)
Nobody ever said it has to be one - it was just part of the example. One new character and three videos is vastly smaller than Maddison Atkins or Redearth are, for example.
First and foremost, "notability" is the important factor. In itscassie's case, video view counts would probably checked, and general community prominence would be tried to assess.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:53, 23 December 2007 (CST)
Ah, okay; I apologize. I misunderstood. The number of characters was just being thrown out as an example, not something set in stone. I agree that notability should be the most important thing in deciding what gets put in what tier. For example, CassieIsWatching, while lacking a large story or many characters, had a HUGE following and a HUGE effect on the Breeniverse (Glenn created OpAphid after seeing CiW, which led to many events in LG15 from Nov. 06 to Mar. 07... Later led to RE88, etc.) --Rekidk 21:06, 23 December 2007 (CST)

Here's my two cents... I agree that guidelines definitely need to be set up. A great chunk of the "fanfic/UGC/Whatever you want to call it" seems to be the "New Girl" pages. A problem I have seen is that, with the exception of the Flock, the new girls are the most frequently... neglected, for lack of a better word. I'm sure there are other pages that also suffer from this, and we should find a way to condense information in places...

Credit Categories: The only UGC series that are significant enough to merit categories for filmography, credits, etc. would be OpAphid, Redearth88/MaddisonAtkins, and Cassieiswatching (if said info were ever to be released).

Response/Stand-Alone Videos: These should be evaluated on an individual basis. Many of these only take up the space of one page (both video and poster) and function fine (Deemontreal, breeiswaiting, etc.)

Ties to Canon: Videos that fall in the gray territory should also be considered (Paulmark18, watchyourjack, Immant, etc.)

Cassiemania: Maybe there could be a page of Cassie-spinoffs that could be restricted to one page, (in the way that the "List of New Girls" page is set up.) (Cassieresurrection, Frankiswaking, Frankiswaiting@gmail.com, etc.) (although some may merit more)

New Girl Mania: Maybe same solution as the one for Cassie listed above? Why have that list of New Girls page AND a stand-alone page? (Again, some may merit more).

The argument may be made that the level of info given on, say, the lonelyjew15 page isn't enough. Some series have successfully had more information than that and kept it limited to one page (TheLadyLazarus).

Wow, that turned out longer than I intended it to. --FH14 13:21, 24 December 2007 (EST)

We need to seriously look over new girls. All of their videos are transcribed and treated as a series. I know some of them got expanded into series or are a part of one, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. - Shiori 16:49, 21 February 2008 (CST)

Jumper/watchyourjack/whatweird

I'm starting a discussion on what type of exposure the Jumper videos should get. Keep in mind that the watchyourjack videos have a separate storyline from lonelygirl15, but are considered canon. In My Opinion, The Jumper Series should be organized like Redearth88 (but using the lg15 person template and the lg15 and whatweird categories). What does everyone else think? --FH14 11:52, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I'm disagree, for a very simple reason: It won't be important. Forget the canon thing for a moment, and view this realistically: It's a commercial. Nothing more. Yes, it has been included in a few canon videos, but the truth is, the moment the advertising contract is over, we'll never hear from Jack again, the Creators won't including "jumping" of any kind, nor will whatweird ever play a role again. On my talk page, you brought Nikki B. as the closest example - but as you yourself noted, Jack is not LG-based. Nikki B. is an important, if minor, influence to the universe. Hell, she even saved the kids' asses in the last season finale. Whereas this advertising campaign has no influence on the plot whats-o-ever. Think about it:
  • Whatweird.com was mentioned a dozen times, yet it has never played a role in the plot
  • Jack has been mentioned and shown several times, yet has never played a role in the plot
If it was something or someone like Nikki B. or Spencer, that/who leaves a lasting impression on the plot or the community, I'd agree. But the important point is, Jack doesn't. Jack will vanish, and it'll be like he never existed. The sole purpose of his appearances is drawing hits to whatweird and the Jumper ARG. He has nothing to do with LG15. He is basically living Ice Breakers Sours Gum. Just like all product placements, he's somewhat noteworthy. But not noteworthy enough to create a whole array of pages for him.
Jack's story is totally and entirely irrelevant to LG15, and, as such, there is no reason we archive it at LGPedia. Now, one might argue that Redearth88's story, for example, is not relevant to the plot either, but a) such thoughts are exactly the reason we're currently doing the fanfic revamp (to determine what's notable enough to stay), and b) Redearth is at least lg- and community-based. Jack is neither. Jack has a totally independent universe that only crosses with "ours" because it needs exposure. Nothing more.
Give Jack one summary page where everything is explained, with a whatweird section, a jumping section, an episode list with links to youtube, and link to the Cs admitting it's advertisement. And then be done with it. We're LGPedia, not JumperPedia.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 11:41, 24 January 2008 (CST)
I'm agreeing with Ren on this one. The current sections used for the Jumper stuff seem more than sufficient. - Shiori 07:48, 29 January 2008 (CST)
I just thought I'd add that I don't even think the Jumper page is necessary; it just seems superfluous. - Shiori 09:11, 30 January 2008 (CST)
Renegade said: "He is basically living Ice Breakers Sours Gum." Haha. It does feel a bit weird to work too much on fan-run pages for advertising, now that the mystery behind jack's connection to lg15 is over.--Milowent 16:12, 31 January 2008 (CST)
Okay guys, I think it's about time we reached a conclusion on this thing. I moved all the Jumper-related pages (unless I missed some) into Category:Jumper. Here's a rundown of each page:
  • Whatweird.com - I think this page should stay since the site was mentioned in several lg15/km videos and there is also an obvious connection to Jack.
  • Suzie - After scanning this page, it seems to contain a nice narrative of the goings-on at the whatweird site. There might be a better place to put this information, but I don't think that's too big of a concern.
  • Jumper ARG Characters - This page seems excessive to me. As has been stated, the purpose of LGPedia is not to chronicle the Jumper stuff to any large extent, so I think this page has to go.
  • Jumper - Okay, right now this page is modeled off of the other ARG pages (Redearth88, AphidPedia), but that doesn't really work for Jumper. Again, this has been stated, but Jumper is not based off of lg15 (like those two are) and therefore doesn't deserve the same kind of treatment. Also, information about the story is found on other pages. So we should be able to use this page to talk about the crossover between the Jumper story and lonelygirl15. So far this has taken place through Taylor, so information about those videos can be found on this page. Also, if not included elsewhere, other references to Jumper-related things can be here. Basically the point is that we're not chronicling Jumper like we are Redearth88 and OpAphid (or did, I should say) because they aren't the same type of thing.
  • Jack - This page seems pretty good as it is, although we may have to work on where we're going to keep all the aspects of the story somewhat.
Okay, that's what I came up with (with Zoey's help). Feel free to add your opinion about it but as this seems to be pretty close to the general consensus, we'll probably end up doing something like this. Thanks!--Jonpro 22:37, 1 February 2008 (CST)

I must preface this with an "I'm very tired so forgive me in advance if what I'm about to say doesn't make sense :P"

Anyways, I agree with the way Jon laid this out, but I wanted to kind of explain the reasoning behind it. There are three different aspects that make this whole crazyness up - lonelygirl15, the Jumper promo stuff (Jack, Suzie, Whatweird.com), and the lonelygirl15-Jumper integration.

So to look at these one at a time:

  • Lonelygirl15 - lonelygirl15 is its own show. It has nothing to do with any of the happenings in the Jumper movie or any of what's going on with Jack/Suzie/Whatweird.com. Any mention of it in the series itself should go on the integration page (see below).
  • The Jumper Promo Stuff (Jack, Suzie, Whatweird.com) - This is something that can be covered, but does NOT need to be covered in depth. The lonelygirl15 people are running a nice story over there, totally seperate from lg15.. .just related to the Jumper stuff. A FEW pages to track the happenings there are fine, which is what we have in pages for Jack, Suzie, and Whatweird.com. We do not need to get too much into it, though, as it is not relevant to anything beyond the promo.
  • The Integration - Like Jon said, the page that covers the integration (which I actually think should be moved from "Jumper" to "Jumper Integration") should be used to talk about the crossover between the watchyourjack and loneylgirl15 stories. It can mention Taylor and Jack.. and include links to other pages that might provide more information on both of their stories repsectively. It can also include the full list of videos in the Jack-Taylor crossover, if you'd like. There can also be a section where we keep track of when other characters (in either LG15 or KM) have made shoutouts to the whatweird site, etc. I think that would make it a really great page that would keep it much more in line with the kind of information LGPedia should be covering.

I think the treatment of these pages as Jon and I laid out will best keep with the needs and goals of LGPedia in covering this story. Hopefully this all makes sense.... please let me know if you're confused about any of it.. I'll try to check in on this page when I'm a little less tired :) --Zoey 00:49, 2 February 2008 (CST)

I think I understand what your saying Zoey (I had posted an earlier comment in this discussion on how I was a bit rash about proposing that Jumper be covered in so much depth, but it seems that the school computer I was using didn't process it). I think you're right. If everyone else agrees, I'll restructure the Jumper/Jumper Integration page in the way you and Jon proposed. (Also, I marked that massive Jumper character page for deletion, that was a mistake on my part. However, I re-created the pre-existing Paladin page I had dirived it from for organizational/informational/it's-info-that-is-difficult-to fully-integrate-in-any-other-article-in-a-way-that-makes-sense purposes.) --FH14 12:45, 02 February 2008 (EST)
I think the Paladin page should be integrated with the Jack page, or the crossover page. It'll never be more than just a stub anyway, so I see no reason for it to exist. - Shiori 13:22, 2 February 2008 (CST)
FH14, I think the fact that the paladin info doesn't fit any other page is exactly the point of this whole discussion - it doesn't fit anywhere because this is lgpedia, not jumperpedia.
I vote for integration rather than a standalone page as well.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 03:03, 3 February 2008 (CST)
I just redid the Jumper page, to be more of a "how the movie has integrated into the series" page. It's kind of crappy, though, so feel more than free to modify it. The paladin page is going to be merged with the Jack page, since it a) has nothing to do with Whatweird, which is being featured heavily on the redone page, and b) paladins aren't playing that big of a role. - Shiori 09:26, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Buckshot

OK, i created a page on Buckshot. What level of treatment should he get? Seriously though, if there are more behind the scenes vids coming out, we probably want to track them some way. Including the 2007 holiday video. --Milowent 12:34, 31 January 2008 (CST)

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that, assuming Zoey allows the page to stay, it should only be mentioned on the Yousef Abu-Taleb page. I already did that, though I don't know whether I should have put it in the Portrays part of the template... - Shiori 13:04, 31 January 2008 (CST)
well, who cares what zoey says!!! :-) but if the majority is against it, away it will go i guess. i do feel that we should see what other behind the scenes vids are released before Season 3 debuts, and then figure out a way to cover them all. The Buckshot page has already been viewed 200 times in a few hours, clearly its in demand! --Milowent 16:09, 31 January 2008 (CST)

Series Redesign Discussion

This is independent of any discussion regarding tier placement for now, although once we agree on tiers, further discussion should go on here.

Redearth88

As I was telling Zoey, I want to redesign the base template being used for spin-offs, as I find it repulsive. More on that later. For the time being, though, I've designed a semi-decent replacement for the RE88 portal. (It needs to be done; I hate how it's being referred to as a portal but looks like a crappy write-up section.) It still needs some work, obviously; I just hashed it together in about 20 minutes. So let me know what you guys think, and feel free to edit away on it.

On a related note, we should figure out exactly what will be listed as part of the RE88 portal, and what will be considered wholly separate. - Shiori 11:42, 27 February 2008 (CST)

I for one love the new look. It looks much less cluttered than the previous one. --FH14 15:30, 27 February 2008 (EST)
I also like the new look. Now we just have to figure out what goes to the MA portal and what goes to the RE88 portal.

New Series Template and General guidelines for All

I just gone putting together my redesigned template for series that use it. It's not the best in the world, but it resembles what we have currently and sets some important guidelines that have been argued recently, which I really think need to be hashed out now before we set off redesigning things.

  1. All series should have a summary on the page. No one will find a series valuable if they don't know what it is.
    (My idea for a standard set for the summary is something of the following, but it's more subjective than this: "It should be explanatory enough that someone with no idea of what any of the series listed here would be able to understand. (i.e. Assume no one has previous knowledge of lonelygirl15 or KateModern.)")
  2. Please, for the love of Jehovah, follow these standards: Videos should be listed as direct links to the video, unless they are transcribed. Transcriptions are not recommended, but if they exist, there should be NO direct links to the video in the listing (since they'll have it on the transcript page). In essence, any of the following are a no-no on the listing of videos for a series:
    Video name ([external_link])
    [[transcript|Video name]] ([external_link])
    We want this:
    [external_link Video name]
    [[transcript|Video name]]

Keep in mind that the template I designed is meant to be applied to series that will end up in Tiers 3 or 4, but the guidelines should apply to ALL videos for uniformity. Have fun discussing. :) - Shiori 12:26, 27 February 2008 (CST)

Character Pages Discussion

Okay, so there's been some talk as to the condition of the character pages we have here on the Pedia. Just bring everyone up to speed, here's what's been said so far:

Zoey, I've been pondering this for some time and thought I may as well ask you about it. Why is it that we do an entire "story so far" on every main character page? Wouldn't it be easier to just highlight the big stuff under "background" and pay more attention to keeping up the The Story So Far.... I mean, it just seems like our character pages are going to be so huge that no one will read the entire thing when we could be using the really good parts of each character background to make a really awesome page for our story so far, plus it would be less work for each character page and more people would actually edit our story so far page instead of it being left for months without any work done to it. I hope that all makes sense as now I'm looking at it and seems quite long, anyway, it's not that big of deal, just thought I'd throw that out there. Nancypants 19:20, 19 February 2008 (CST)
I think you have a completely valid point. I've actually been pondering implimenting something to that effect for a long time. The only thing is, I couldn't figure out how to do up the characters' pages so that this would work. Do you have any ideas... maybe a mockup of a page idea so I (and others) can kind of get a better idea of what exactly you have in mind? I'd love to see it! --Zoey 14:55, 10 March 2008 (CDT)
OK, this is proving harder than I had thought it would be. It's difficult to decide what to do with it. Maybe we should start a discussion or something to get other people's input because I really do think it would be better to have the character pages be shorter, but I don't know where to start! By the way I'm not going to be able to do quite as much editing as I have been because people at work are getting suspicious. :( Nancypants 19:07, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

So yeah -- thoughts, people? --Pheon 11:38, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, first I think we should get rid of any sections that are covered in other places (ie: Daniels relationship section and Jonas's fan activity section) and just put links to them at the bottom with the theory links. EDIT: I have made a fake Daniel page here so if anyone has ideas please feel free to mess around and change things, it's just my sandbox. Nancypants 20:36, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Page/Category naming conventions

Maybe this isn't the best time to bring this up, but this has been bugging me a little bit for a while now. When KM joined our ranks here, we ended up with a variety of different variations for KM versions of pages. For example, we have:

Not to mention that some of these also have capitalization inconsistencies and deviations from convention. So my point of this is that I'd like to go through all of these pages and clean them up. First we have to decide what we want the conventions to be. Right now, we seem to have a bias toward LG15 simply because it came first. So there was no reason to name the Cameos page, for example, "Lonelygirl15 cameos". Now, since we cover both series, I think they should be treated equally. My proposal is to use prefixes of "Lonelygirl15" (not "LG15") for lonelygirl15 pages and "KateModern" (not "KM") for KateModern pages. The same would apply for categories. Capitalization should also be standardized: the first word must be capitalized, but all others should be lowercase unless they are normally capitalized in a sentence. Using the same examples as above, these would be the new names:

  • Lonelygirl15 characters / KateModern characters
  • Lonelygirl15 soundtrack / KateModern soundtrack
  • Lonelygirl15 notable details / KateModern notable details
  • Category:Lonelygirl15 videos / Category:KateModern videos
  • Category:Lonelygirl15 behind the scenes / Category:KateModern behind the scenes
  • etc.

I think it's important to leave redirects in tact for these pages instead of deleting them, not only to keep links here working, but also links from external sites. So, what do people think of this proposal? Any suggestions, alterations, etc? If not, I'll go ahead and start working on this in a few days (presuming I have enough time).--Jonpro 18:32, 16 March 2008 (CDT)

Honestly, seeing all that, I vote for just adding LG15:, KM: and Portal: namespaces. Way easier to have separately searchable LG15 and KM namespaces than to always have to type out L - o - n - e - l - y - g - i - r - l - 1 - 5 in front of all important pages. You'd just have LG15:Videos, KM:Videos, and if any new series gets added, you can just add a TS: (Third Series) namespace, and happily add TS:Videos next to them. The Portal namespace could be co-used by Tier 5 UGC, so we'd have Portal:Lonelygirl15, Portal:KateModern, Portal:Redearth88, Portal:MaddisonAtkins and so on.
For categories, we should settle for LG15 ... and KM ..., 'cause some pages get automatically put in loads of categories, and an entire "Lonelygirl15" everytime would cause half a dozen of lines just for the categorization area.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 00:05, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
We should keep in mind that LG15 is probably not the best abbreviation for lonelygirl15, as it currently means the entire Breeniverse. (Remember when Miles posted this?) If we end up choosing to not use the full spelling of each series in the new official naming convention, we should use "LG" and "KM" under the greater the "LG15." --Pheon 02:37, 17 March 2008 (CDT)