Difference between revisions of "LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp"

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::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
 
::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
  
::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then they shouldn't solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]], or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and not part of the revamp.
+
::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to have the official blog link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
+
::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
 
::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
 
::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
 
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
 
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Revision as of 03:26, 20 March 2008

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been archived in order to keep the page tidy.

Glossary

Tier 1 Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
Tier 2 Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
Tier 3 Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
Tier 4 Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
Tier 5 Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.

Criteria

The important and sole decisive criterion is notability. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:

  • Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
  • Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
  • How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
  • How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
  • How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
  • How many episodes does the series have?
  • How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
  • How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
  • And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
  • [Please expand this list]

List of fan series currently archived on the pedia

Suggested Tiers

Please see LGPedia:UGC Tier List. Do not edit that page, though.

Mission

We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

Free for all comment space

Add your comments and opinions below this line.

Starting Fresh, Perhaps

So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)

Anywho, the listings:

Tier 1: The 707 clique, Aaronbeast, Breeiswaiting, Brucker, Bubbleteagirl, Cassieresurrection, The Deacons, EWLPRI, Fourthface, GuillotineCalamity, Iris2009, Maccaboy17, Marbella, Mission Anchor Cove, MsBlackBetty, N3ural N3t, OpScorn, ProjectStatic, Kelseygirl15, Lonelydude15, RefusEtoBeliEveLies, Sarahsnotebook, StormFaction, Scdgoofy, TheLadyLazarus, TWJaniak, UtNbErS tutlaEN, majority of the New Girls

Tier 2: ApotheosisAZ, Cassie UGC (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also breeiswaiting, cassieresurrection, frankiswaking, frankiswaiting@gmail.com cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) Deemontreal, Dreams from the Breeniverse, masonishappy, MessyNessy89, The Homeschoolers Aggregate, Xeniph, The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

Tier 3: Acrowleyorder, Cassieiswatching, Immant, LonesomeOctober, LordGreystoke422, Paulmark18

Tier 4: lonelygirl362436, The Flock (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), Itscassie, LonelyJew15

Tier 5: Maddison Atkins, OpAphid, Redearth88

Let me know your thoughts! --Zoey 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)

I think they are more fair. Definitely a better starting point for discussion. I have no objections.--Immortal1 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)
No objections, Zoey. Let's do it!! --Virginian9000 28:54, 26 February 2008 (EST)
I concur. Although, some of the Tier 3 listings are currently being upkept as Tier 2s... Are they going to be expanded more? I still maintain my opinion that only Tier 5 videos should have transcripts, but since I seem to be the voice of the minority, I suppose we can expand it to two. (We do need to set a firm line, though.)
I will also say that anything Tier 3 or above should get some actual content regarding the SERIES, and not solely the videos. I think if we can't get that together, it should bump it down a bit in the rankings.
Also, I think I should add, as I explained in the chat (and apparently neglected to do so above) my earlier listing was not meant to be definitive in any way, and was simply thrown together based on what little I knew of the series, and what content was available. I just wanted to put them out there for discussion.
Once the tiers get hashed out, we should archive the discussion and go on to discussions on how exactly to change each series page for the better. They all could stand some serious work. - Shiori 18:00, 26 February 2008 (CST)
  1. When you say "consisting of...", does that mean we'll unify all sub-series on one page? i.e., have only one Cassie UGC page then, not separate *cassie* pages?
  2. Have you checked whether any series has something special that'd bump them up, being featured in the Community Appreciation Week or something, for example?
  3. Will we make The Flock Deal a general offer?
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:24, 26 February 2008 (CST)
I think Zoey's proposal is proably the fairest one I've seen so far. As someone who spends a lot of their time on the fanfic area of the LGPedia, and as a fan of many of the UGC series out there. I will say this: I think every three months or so there should be a place where people can state their case for why something should change tiers or not. --FH14 27 February 2008 (EST)
No objections on my end, Zoey. :) And I really like that idea, FH14 -- who's to say every show is going to be the same forevermore?? -- --Pheon 11:55, 27 February 2008 (CST)
well, i wanted to try to get iris2009 page into tier 2, no admin besides Jay and Owen and TWj have ever touched it, my fans along with me have cared for the page..all i ask is to keep the 1 page...--TJ Marsh 21:38, 28 February 2008 (CST)
I can see the reasoning behind a bump-up, especially since the Iris page hasn't gotten horribly over-blown. I can also see an argument for making it Tier 1. I dunno, I could go either way on this, to be honest. (If it does get bumped to Tier 2, I think the page is going to need some rearranging or something; half of the stuff in the introduction isn't really "intro".) I'll wait to see what other people think. - Shiori 22:03, 28 February 2008 (CST)
if its not too late, i would vote for iris2009 to be tier 2. to be honest, though, there are a number of series currently listed in tier 1 that i would favor leaving a separate page for. Those would probably be: Aaronbeast (he did multiple videos, and has been referenced by the creators in public talks), Breeiswaiting (this video was created by the creators, i am 99% sure), The Deacons (because its a story of its own), Iris2009 (multiple videos, subject of controversy over time), Kelseygirl15 (possibly. these are mostly spoofs, but there are a number of them), TWJaniak (because he is TWJ and a god of lg15 history). Of the others i either didn't follow them and can't comment, or I believe the tier 1 designation is correct. --Milowent 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)
Can you back any of this up or elaborate on it?
Why do you want Iris on Tier 2, even though he himself wanted it deleted just last week? (Multiple videos is true for all series - otherwise, they wouldn't be series. And what is this controversy you reference, other than his constant claims to and attempts to become canon?
Where/when did the Creators reference Aaronbeast?
Can you prove Breeiswaiting was done by the Creators, or at least show us your evidence?
How is "a story of its own" notable, given that that is true for most fanfic?
Although I like Kelsey, the ground rules specifically state that singular videos without a connecting story arc do not count as fanfic series. There are plans for a "Notable fan videos" page where Kelsey's videos might find a place.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 12:18, 5 March 2008 (CST)
Renegade: I'll try.
1. Iris shouldn't be the judge of where he should be, though his opinion should be considered. Does he want to be deleted now, or just want one page? And by controversy, yes, I mean his continuing attempts to claim canonhood. Evidence of that is all over the Breeniverse, its noteworthy in my head for that. People say lg15 was a "new art form," but iris is to me. I know others might disagree. Plus, I just like the guy. Sue me.
2. In the FITC talk the creators gave in Toronto in April 2007, they referenced "the fan" who has created a series of videos as Daniel's brother. I remember that one because I watched it for the first time recently. I believe they mentioned that same basic thing at other conferences. Does that along make Aaronbeast deserve his own page? Maybe not, but I put it out there.
3. Breeiswaiting. The breeiswaiting video was the first video response posted and accepted for "The Ceremony," (just a few hours later), and clearly shows where the ceremony was. When Nikki Bower debuted a few weeks later, she made a number of attempts (there are forum posts) to get people to watch the Breeiswaiting video and suggested there was something at the ceremony location to find. Then, when no one went, she went herself and found the box with the Watcher symbol and made a video about it. She credited the breeiswaiting video for helping her find it on the forum. It was only discovered a few months later that Nikki was being done in connection with Amanda. I have never directly asked the C's if they created it. Maybe if you or Zoey asked, they would confirm (or at least not deny it).
4. On the Deacons, I guess I meant it has enough meat to it be its own page. Plus, it was fanfic told thru the comments board, which was unique. (And though it seemed obvious to me it wasn't canon, lots of people thought it might be)
5. Your suggestion as to Kelsey makes sense.
If no one agrees with my suggestions, I'm happy to go with the flow, I just wanted to weigh in.
--Milowent 14:20, 5 March 2008 (CST)
  1. Hmm. I guess a Tier 2 page could be used to warn the community about him not actually being canon xD Although I'm not sure how his other stuff links into Iris2009.
  2. Well, being used as an example for all LG15 UGC is kinda notable. It'd be helpful if you could link me to video/transcript, but for now, I'd support Tier 2.
  3. I see what you mean - that does look suspicious. Agreed for now.
  4. That "plus" is what's notable, imo. It's either the only comment-board-based fanfic, or the only one I've heard of. Either way, not being video-based and yet still getting known is notable, imo.
I'll update the Suggested Tiers list. Thanks for your input and help.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I hate to upset the applecart, but I have an opinion. (Doesn't everyone?) This is about CassieIsWatching, which is currently listed as a Tier 3. I believe that CassieIsWatching is a special exception, and should be Tier 4. It has done the following: achieved over 250,000 views on just 5 videos; inspired a multitude of Cassie fanfic (including ItsCassie, a Tier 4); inspired OpAphid, the former-official ARG of LG15 and current part of RE88 (a Tier 5); provided a launchpad for the aforementioned OpAphid, which 'gamejacked' CiW's mailbox and responded to its videos; attracted attention of a new audience and provided the majority of LG15.com's forum traffic during its run; historically significant; inspired BreeIsWaiting, which is presumed to have connections to the Creators;and finally, it is currently complete, with around 10 pages, and requires little effort to maintain (as it has ended long, long ago). Again, I don't want to upset matters--I'm not a regular LGPedia contributer--but I strongly believe that CiW should be Tier 4. --Rekidk 22:29, 28 February 2008 (CST)

Sounds reasonable to me...but for the time being, I'm not even sure this will go through...I haven't checked with the propaganda department and the administration yet. (Just came home half an hour ago.)
Any objections to bumping up CiW should the Revamp go through?
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 13:47, 2 March 2008 (CST)
I see no problem with bumping CiW up a notch . . . it wasn't just popular in its time but downright infamous. --Pheon 14:33, 2 March 2008 (CST)
No objections. --Virginian9000 15:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)
I think you have a very valid point about CIW, and it is something I struggled with as coming up with my "proposed listings." The reason I personally decided against giving it a tier 4 listing was because I have been told countless times by people who played the game that the information we have is incomplete or inaccurate in many places. In my opinion, I think it would take some work by the people who are familiar with the series to get the pages accurate before we would want to work them into tier 4. It seems a little silly to me to expand upon pages with inaccurate information. HOWEVER, if we can find someone who is knowledgable, or is willing to do the research to become knowledgable enough to correct the inaccuracies and fill in the gaps, I agree, cassieiswatching definitely has a place on tier 4... maybe even tier 5 depending on just how much information we end up getting about it! --Zoey 15:08, 2 March 2008 (CST)
Not to upset matters, either, but if its fairly complete as is, I concur with Rekidk's views that CiW should be tier 4. CiW has been very influential on the development of lg15 --Milowent 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)

I agree to mantian the iris page myself, and re do what might need to be changed. ----TJ Marsh

The Flock was listed as Tier 3, has a large number of pages, and was already well-maintained. Iris is listed as Tier 1 and is currently marked for deletetion on your own wish.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 08:27, 3 March 2008 (CST)

Greg Mason

I guess we need to have a discussion on Greg Mason (aka masonishappy). He's new, which is why I decided to flag it as a new subsection. He's growing in popularity, so he deserves a mention, at the very least, but should he get his own page? Discuss. - Shiori 12:39, 6 March 2008 (CST)

Hmmm . . . I kinda like the idea of him getting his own page with just a list of videos, but no transcripts yet (I forget what Tier that would qualify under). Later, after some time has passed, we can better judge where he should properly go, either up or down the ladder. At least those are my thoughts, and I'm sure there'll be others
(But one thing's for sure - Greg's going to be good practice on how we decide to treat new fanfictions post-Revamp). --Pheon 13:14, 6 March 2008 (CST)
I vote for him getting his own page, at least for now. People should be coming to LGPedia whenever they wonder about a new promising series. --Milowent 13:25, 6 March 2008 (CST)
Works for me. I just wanted to get people's input on it. We'll have to make sure to put it on the revisit list, but for now I'll add it to Zoey's Tier 2 list, and I just put him on the Spin-offs page. (Obviously, in the unlikely even that he's canon, he'll need to be removed.) - Shiori 13:50, 6 March 2008 (CST)

Sofia's Diary

As it's a popular web series that predates LG15 I think that it should be mentioned somewhere. If you're going to have an academic resource that focuses on one web series to at least briefly describe other web series seems logical. If we never mention any other web series but ones known to be related to LG15 and KM and LG15 and KM themselves then we seem to be creating something false that ignores other series that are part of the history of web series. - Journeymystery

It doesn't seem logical to me. Using an example given by someone else, if you had a Star Wars wiki, you wouldn't put a history of movie page on there. LGPedia is for LG produced series and it's derivatives, not an accurate history of every web series. That's what sites and pages like Wikipedia are for. We're not ignoring they exist, we merely have no need to acknowledge they do.Babygurl1853 22:35, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I recognize that Sofia's Diary is a huge series, but we either need more information on that page or it shouldn't exist. (I can't even see why it should be covered/added to the spin-offs page. The series doesn't even really relate to KM or LG15 other than the fact that it's the same genre. We don't cover Quarterlife for the same reasons.) Discuss. - Shiori 16:40, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I agree. Perhaps we should just mention it in one of the historical LG15 articles, because I do think that little fact about it airing in Portugal in 2003 is noteworthy. Mention it there and perhaps on the Bebo page (you know, what other series Bebo carries). But yes, it's not LG15-related beyond that, and shouldn't have its own page.--Pheon 16:44, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
It shouldn't be added to the spinoffs page. However, a page like the ones for Greek and Laura might be good. However, if no one else sees any reason for the page's existance, I have no objections. --FH14 17:44, 17 March 2008 (EST)
If Sofia's Diary is an independent series with no connection to LG15 or KM, then it has no place on LGPedia.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
P.S.: BAH, no conflicting, Pheon!
P.P.S.: BAAAAAAAAaaaaAH, same goes for you, FH14!

(BTW, in case people were wondering, I only posted this under here just incase I was wrong about it not relating to the series. You never can tell what can be considered a spin-off these days.) - Shiori 16:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Hmm, I forgot about the GREEK and Laura pages. Perhaps we can group all these non-LG-productions under one page, mentioning that they DO have a connection to the LG/KM shows simply because of actor/crew member, but since they aren't in the Breeniverse, they don't get much more than a blurb? --Pheon 16:53, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
Well, they are categorized under outside projects... - Shiori 16:56, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
But if you look at all those pages, they're all blurbs! Maybe it's just best to group them all under a big "Outside Projects" page . . . --Pheon 16:58, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
On this very same page, we have argued that Quarterlife is not within the scope of LGPedia just because of a common actress. And now we're arguing that Greek is notable because of it?
Do I even have to comment on the insanity of this, including how much it will confuse the Redearth/Maddison Atkins UGC/independence discussion?
Star Wars is not the same thing as Indiana Jones. A Star Wars wiki does not have a page on Indiana Jones just because Harrison Ford played in both. Independent productions have no business on LGPedia. So if Sofia's Diary is neither part of what we call the Breeniverse, nor LG15-related UGC, the page should be deleted.
And before somebody asks, yes, I do advocate the deletion of the Greek page, no I don't support the deletion of the Laura page, because Laura had both LG15's director and a cast member, and got coverage on Inside LG15. It is thus of certain behind-the-scenes notability.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 17:10, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
I have to agree there's no connection between Sofia's Diary and lg15 and only strained logical reasons to include it here. The only possible place it could be mentioned would be if we had a page on "web series", but really others series should be covered on wikipedia which does have a "Web series" page we could link to. --Milowent 19:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
The characters from KM have actually subscribed to Sofia's Diary. Now, most likely they are watching it as fans of a show in a parallel universe but it is noteworthy.--modelmotion 21:26, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
I don't think it's note-worthy because of that. The KM Characters went to see Disturbia and Enchanted -- but that doesn't warrant them having pages. Putting it that way makes it seem more it should go under advertising than anything else. What links does Sofia have to LG15 or the Breeniverse? No crossing over actors, or storylines. The only linking factor is Bebo -- but we don't have a page on Roommates just because both that and LG15 have posted videos on MySpace, for example.
Also, on the subject of Greek and Quarterlife, they should be just listed on a page titled "Other Projects", with a section for each of the cast that has done something notable, if it warrants more than a small mention on the actor's page. With Laura, as it has multiple links to LG15, I feel that it is fine to have a page of it's own.Babygurl1853 22:35, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

HOOBS

I disagree with the Tier 1 listing, supporting Tier 2, on the following grounds:

  1. The Tier 1 listing reason is invalid - the fact that something is explained elsewhere is no reason not to include it in an encyclopedia - does Wikipedia not have a page on United States of a America, just because Encyclopædia Britannica already wrote about them? Does Merriam Webster's not list words on the basis that they're already explained on Wiktionary? If somebody comes to look up something from the Breeniverse, LGPedia is the primary destination - not the forums.
  2. HOOBS was recently mentioned on Inside LG15 - even if you argue being promoted on the official blog is not notable (wtf?), a mention on the official blog probably led to dozens of users trying to look it up on the pedia, so we should at least have a page for the moment, until the buzz dies down.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:05, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
Well, I don't have a problem with Tier 2ing it, I just figured 1 would be easier, since we'll need a decent amount of information for 2, and there are TONS of accounts associated with it. Do with it what you will. - Shiori 21:11, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
Tier 2 is fine with me too :) --Pheon 21:13, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
k, I'll add it to the preliminary list under 2 then.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 22:54, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

The Coalition

They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --Pheon 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
No, in my opinion, for the following reasons:
  1. HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
  2. Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
  3. And this is the most important one, in my opinion: Everyone can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.
Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page we will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.
(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)
(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)
On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on The Coalition page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - Shiori 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.
God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition. But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--Immortal1 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.
(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - Shiori 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements? Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--modelmotion 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure. You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence. How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--modelmotion 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
Anyone?--modelmotion 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.
I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - Shiori 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
There are 4 series so they each should have a page. The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series. As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory. The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--modelmotion 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - Shiori 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was their decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to The Coalition instead of independent pages. It was their decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into The Coalition, or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting The Coalition, because then, The Coalition is not a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

"Guidelines"

I just want to post because I am a bit concerned that the way things are currently set up, people who are interested in making new pages for new series will not have the opportunity to open a discussion regarding moving said series to a higher/lower tier. I want to ensure that people will have this opportunity, and I would like to open a discussion for ways we can ensure this will happen. My suggestion is to use the word "guidelines" with this system instead of "rules." I know the word "rules" has not been stated, but after reading the comments, I feel that this is the case, and I think "guidelines" would better indicate the tone of this discussion. I am not saying that they will be guidelines in the sense that anyone can do what they want, but in the sense that things will be open for discussion and that people cannot just "enforce" that a series is stuck in a set tier because of hard and fast "rules," but instead, that there will be discussion which everyone can participate and voice their opinion in as is the tradition on LGPedia. We should remember that the admins have the overall authority to ensure that LGPedia is well run an ultimately if things get out of hand the power does still rest with the admins. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.--modelmotion 00:52, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I think that's an important point, model. And no one is saying that these tiers are set in stone for any of these series. Things change, series get more/less popular (of course historical notability must also be considered), and discussions will have to be reopened. That's part of the way things work (ideally at least). The whole purpose of this discussion was just to categorize what we have cataloged here currently, and now that that's (mostly) done, things should run more smoothly. There seems to have been a lot of drama here and I've tried to stay out of it (although I have read it all), but I think it's time to move on, and I think this discussion is a good way to do that.--Jonpro 01:21, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
First of all, I don't understand where you're proposing this change in terminology. Since I don't speak of rules (as you noted), I have no idea where you would like me to speak of "guidelines" instead.
Secondly, I have no idea where you think a certain Tier is enforced, or stuck to someone or anything. The system is pretty straightforward - it places new series and series new to the pedia automatically on Tier 2, the entry level (as it has already happened with masonishappy, for example), and if series gain momentum, they are re-evaluated - be it because its increased notability is evident, the informational load leads to an administrative request, or because a fan requests it.
People are "stuck" in their Tier for a certain amount after an evaluation. That makes sense, and is normal - otherwise, somebody could just request a higher Tier every day until the end of time. We have a grand evaluation now, so of course we're not going to bump up half the series one day after completion. But by next month (or whenever) the situation of a series might totally have changed. Look at Paulmark18 - a single shoutout in an official episode increases their notability enough to rise to Tier 3. That could happen to any series any day. And of course we'll have to re-evaluate its status then. But I don't get what that has to do with which word we don't use and which word we should use instead of the word we don't use in the first place?
To sum it up, I have no idea what you want to change. And given that you yourself admit that the word you want to replace is not used in the first place, I'm not entirely sure you do, either.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 01:24, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
Well, Renegade, I think MM just wants to make sure that this is all stated out, black and white, and honestly, it's been ambiguous at best. I think it needs to be blatantly stated that this new system is merely a set of guidelines to properly categorize the many fanfics. Shoot, our previous discussions with Masonishappy are definitely important because that show is a guinea pig in the way we'll be treating all new fanfictions from now on. So yes, to just to make it clear, if the criteria fit, there should be no reason why a show can't fit in a certain Tier, higher or lower. If there's a series that's become really popular (even after starting out really slow) or the Creators later 'canonize' (like they did last fall with P&A), I see no reason why that show can't be approved of a higher Tier. --Pheon 01:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
Isn't that included in "Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic"? -_^
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 12:35, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
I don't think anyone is really far apart on this issue, at least. Series may move around from time to time, but having a structure will make things much less arbitrary. As always, the 'pedia will react to particular cases as they occur. As a wise man said in the movie Ghostbusters:
Dr. Peter Venkman: I make it a rule never to get involved with possessed people.
[Dana starts passionately making out with him]
Dr. Peter Venkman: Actually, it's more of a guideline than a rule...
--Milowent 22:00, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Schedule

Since a large part of the previous discussion participants seems to agree with Zoey's listing, and this project has been going on for two months now, I guess it's time to set a schedule for the next phase(s):

  • Unless there are no major further objections, I'll create a preliminary final listing on February 29th. This, if not objected to, will be the master reference list for tier listings.
  • If there are no major further objections to the preliminary final listing until March 2nd, then discussion will be be ceased, and we'll commence the Revamp.

NOTE: This schedule will be delayed until further notice, as Zoey doesn't want us to do anything until she's back online. (Added by Shiori)

  • The Revamp will proceed as follows
    • Phase 1: Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.
    • Phase 2: Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.
    • Phase 3: Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
    • Phase 4: Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
    • Phase 5: Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
    • Phase 6: Find and correct references to UGC content.
    • Phase 7: Declare Revamp over.
    • Phase 8: Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control Flock Regulations.

Page-list

  • Central portal
  • List of videos
  • Templates:
    • Bottom index
    • Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use Template:FakeBlog directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
  • Character pages
  • Actor pages
  • Categories to group it all together

Flock Regulations

The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page.
Reasons for revocation can be:

  • Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
  • Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
  • The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
  • New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
  • New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
  • The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
  • The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
  • The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
  • Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

Reasons can and will be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do not have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.


And before you start complaining: These rules are actually quite gracious. It takes less than ten minutes to get a barebones video page up. You have been given three days. It takes less than one minute to add a link to a list. You have been given two days. If your people work as great as you touted, you should be in no danger. But there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that being incapable of doing a ten-minute-job within three days is a very clear sign your section is not actively being maintained, and since the only reason you have been given the right to create separate pages is that you vouched to keep them maintained, violation of these regulations will lead to the termination of this deal.
In addition, you should be aware that the pedia doesn't sleep, and it doesn't wait for you. Deadlines will not change because you are on vacation or anything. If your pages go unmaintained just because one person cannot contribute, that's just another sign you cannot handle the workload.
As said above, the timeframes you have been given are very gracious, especially considering that you don't even have to care for the whole pedia, but just a very, very small subset of its pages. So take what you can get, and keep your section maintained - any complaints will only lead to a re-evaluation of these timeframes, and might very well lead to the administration deciding that you don't really need two days to put up a single link.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 15:16, 27 February 2008 (CST)
1) I do question whether you have the authority on behalf of the administration to impose regulations but in the end it doesn't matter.
2) That fact that this section takes almost half the page is telling. You've obviously spent a great deal of time looking at Flock page histories to see how long it takes for types of edits to be made. I can only assume that your sheriff of these parts and will be keeping a close eye to insure these regulations are met.</br>
4) These are fan contributions, no one is running to the lgpedia to read transcripts for current vids. It's about archiving. The one thing this process has ignored from the very beginning is how and why these pags are used. They are used differently than the canon series.
5) When reading "superfluous content (like the current character placeholders)" is where my needle ticked. We ended season 1 with every character's future uncertain. Since the lgpedia is our only web presence I put the placeholders in to create suspense between seasons and as the season got started as to which characters would return and which new ones would show up. We revealed a new character as recently as last week. You might have a case if I upload new images for this purpose but I used the same image that has been on the page since day one in each case. It just shows that you're looking really hard to find something to complain about and will continue to do so.
6) The fact that you've named these "Immo's Regulations" suggest that I somehow am getting special treatment. I don't want or need special treatment. I mean if my people are doing the editing doesn't that ease the burden of other editors? Seems like a fair exchange to me.
7) At the end of the day all this appears to be is a petty pathetic attempt to best me and guess what? You win, tell a friend. Our project is very laid back. I don't hold the girls to a video schedule I'm sure as hell am not going to hold them to your regulations. Whoever has edited the Flockipedia has done so without any prodding from me. They are free to still do so. I won't discourage them but I'd expect they won't. Whether FH14 continues to do so is up to him. I'll take this opportunity to thank him for all his hard work. So however far back you scale the Flock's pages I expect the administration to maintain them at the same level as others in the same tier.
--Immortal1 18:43, 27 February 2008 (CST)
  1. Question all you want...I have no fear of it.
  2. Actually, I've got better things to do than to police you...I'm four weeks past schedule on the portal redesign, have to fix character icons and whatnot. But I'm sure FH14 will keep an eye on everything.
  3. Yeah...you kinda don't have 3. Cheating on the numbers, are we?
  4. So? The fact that your users use your pages differently than the canon ones is a reason they should be allowed to make the pedia as a whole look incomplete? Transcript missing looks like "The pedia is missing a transcript.", not "Immo had a logical reason not to put up a transcript at the moment, and the pedia is not at fault for this.". You may not care if a transcript is missing, but for us, it means the pedia looks incomplete. The fact that you don't seem to grasp that your pages directly represent LGPedia to the readers explains why you don't give a fuck about our needs. I don't care for what reason you put up transcripts, as long as they're there. Nobody is reading Flock pages thinking "oh, these are immo's pages" - they are reading the pedia, and everything they see falls back on the pedia. When you miss a transcript, it makes us look bad, not you.
  5. Your needle can tick all it wants. The fact that you had to write a whole thick paragraph to explain these placeholders should tell you it's not obvious. For everyone else, it looks like somebody failed at table building. If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something, so the user knows it's meant to be empty, and not just horrible layouting.
  6. Ever heard of "Miranda Laws"? You're a precedent, and the only one getting this special bumping so far. Thus, it's named after you. Why should I name it "Tier 4 Exception Regulations" when, technically, Tier 4 already is the exception? Face it, you're getting special treatment, and you're the only one getting it so far, so it's named after you.
    And, just for the sake of mentioning it: Once more, your argument can be spun both ways - deleting all but one Flock pages would also ease our burden, and a lot more than still having to patrol what your users do on 50 pages.
  7. Oh, I'm sorry, were you out of arguments? Did you find no way to attack me on the subject matter? I don't care if your project is laid back, how you keep your girls or whatever. It's time you finally grasp this is not about you in any way. It's about the pedia as a whole and all of the fanfic. The only reason it's personalized for you is because you're the only creator who got here trying to defend his creation with nonsense, insults, and pulling strings behind the scenes.
    You were speaking about how stuff was telling. You know what's telling? That in six points you had, you didn't question a single of the regulations I wrote. All your six points were direct attacks at me. First questioning my authority, then insinuating I was unrightfully thinking of myself as a sort of "pedia police", going on to imply that I just don't understand your ways, that I was unfairly pointing out obvious flaws in your design, that I was highlighting you for no apparent reason, and finally, directly saying I'm picking on you, calling me pathetic.
    You may think you did a great job at undermining my credibility, insulting me, or whatever the hell you tried there. Fact is, this was your response to the regulations, you did not object to them, so they will go in effect as written, unless the administration intervenes.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (CST)
Again in your effort to "win" you miss the most important point which is where I said I will not follow your regulations nor will I ask anyone else to and I concede what that means in terms of whatever tier the administration deems the Flock should go. Could that be the reason I didn'nt object to the them?--Immortal1 22:56, 27 February 2008 (CST)
Then I guess this deal is void and your pages will be collapsed.
*shrug* Less work for us.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 23:01, 27 February 2008 (CST)
Okay, here's my two cents on this whole thing. You can argue back at me if you want or whatever, but I'm just stating what I took from this.
Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.
And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing? I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes us look bad."
You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.
Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it? So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.
And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?
*takes a deep breath and closes the window*
Babygurl1853 01:12, 28 February 2008 (CST)
Babygurl1853 said:
Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.
That is what I tried to say - they look nice to you because you know what they are. For the uninitiated, they look like random crap added by someone who didn't know how to correctly build a table, and had to fill up the remaining cells. I was not suggesting to reveal anything (hence the "or something") - I was merely suggesting to make obvious to everyone that these images are supposed to be where they are and that they serve a function, and that they aren't just fillers to hold the table together.
Immo specifically said he created them to create suspense - would it hurt the suspense to add "New season 2 character?" or something on it? That would give away nothing, have the same effect, and everybody would know it's supposed to be there.
But nooooo, instead we add cryptic symbols, expecting everyone to psychically guess their true meaning.
Babygurl1853 said:
And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing?
Zoey.
Babygurl1853 said:
I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes us look bad."
And I'm pretty sure Zoey and an armada of KM users were pretty unhappy about it, and said armada did not blame specific, random users, but blamed the general entity "the pedia" for not having transcripts. That's like saying, "I see you already have too many pages to work on, so why do you not want ours to work on, too?" I fail to see your point. (And for the record: I don't watch KM. I am not involved in any KM operation on this site, except for template hardcode fixing. What you say may be true, but I know nothing about it.)
Babygurl1853 said:
You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.
My statement was not to say that you as a Flock user would go around and check for missing RE transcripts. My point was, the generic user doesn't go "Oh my, FH14 failed to add the second half of transcript XY yet!", but "BAH! The pedia's transcript is incomplete again!". The users don't look at sub-sections or individual users. If a transcript is missing, it's not missing on an episode page of the Flock subsection. It's missing on "the pedia".
Thus, any missing transcript gives the pedia as a whole a bad image.
Babygurl1853 said:
Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it?
That was the basis of the deal, yes. The regulations would've caught if you didn't do that, because then you wouldn't be self-servicing, and would require additional help. Had you updated the pages as normal, everything would've been fine, and you'd never have heard of the regulations again.
Babygurl1853 said:
So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.
And that is exactly what's inacceptable. Users don't have a magic page radar that tells them "Now you can come, page's ready!" - they come when they want to look something up. And when the page isn't there, see above - they don't go "Oh damn, Babygurl1853 hasn't added a video page for Flock 64 yet." they go "WTF?? Does the pedia STILL not have a page?? The episode has been out for two weeks!!!".
This is what the regulations were for. They set you a certain timeframe. Had you wanted to put the episode links after 10 minutes, ten hours or a day, we wouldn't have cared. We'd just have cared had you not done it within two days, since it's a ten-second-job, after all. You may not care if there is no video page. The readers do. And they blame all of us, not you personally.
Babygurl1853 said:
And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?
It's apparent that you either didn't talk to Immo beforehand, or that Immo intentionally failed to mention certain facts about his live conversations. Rest assured, I know for a fact that this wasn't the first place this deal was suggested, and rest assured I, personally, told him that the volume of pages and their well-maintained condition were greatly speaking for keeping them. (I have logs to prove that, too.)
This isn't about me hating Immo. This is about Immo's resistance to respect that the administration of this encyclopedia has to make sure its content is in a reasonable state of maintenance, and that his desire to keep more than 50 pages and more adds to the editing burden we all have to share. If you don't understand why all of us, ask Immo - I explained it to him multiple times on IRC.
As for your last question, if said theoretical fanfic would be eligible for such a deal (i.e. be in Tier 3 and have a reasonable argument to bump up to 4 if it sustains itself), and it agrees to the proposed regulations and accept the consequences should it fail to adhere to the regulations, I'd have no problem with it. It's just that the very fact that you have proven before that you can run the section on your own is what gave Immo the leverage to broker this deal - other fanfics have not shown such self-management capabilities. Nobody, not even me, doubted you could easily stay within the regulations. Especially if you are an active pedia editor, you know exactly that it doesn't take three days to add a main character to the portal. With image upload, with preparations, with extra time for weird bugs, it takes 30 minutes max.
And yet, 3 days for a 30 minute task are apparently not good enough for Immo. Whatever. I have proposed the regulations, I can show you countless examples for every task showing that you would've gotten vastly more time then necessary, if that's still not good enough for Immo, that's not my fault. This is not Immo's personal pedia praise party, this is content reorganization. He had fought his way to get his very own special deal, he didn't want it. That's his decision, not mine.
In all likelyhood, had Immo agreed, nothing would've have changed for The Flock whatsoever.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 07:36, 28 February 2008 (CST)
It looks like this has gotten... interesting to say the least. I'm going to start out by saying that I have few objections to the regulations Renegade has proposed (few not a few, as in I only have 1 or 2 minor ones. That would be in the case we had a few weeks ago, where a new character is added who has a number of videos that need to be added, in that case, the transcription deadline could be extended while the others remain the same.) I'm not even going to touch on the whole Immo-backdoor-deal-that-he-and-Satan-made-to-bug-Renegade-for-several-weeks thing (I find it amusing how you two can both accuse the other of being rude in the most civil way possible. :P) A way to ease the whole "incomplete" transcripts make the lgpedia look bad would be to make the !!!Transcript Incomplete!!! less obvious looking on all the pages where that template is used. (Please note, I am not trying to sound mean or demanding, and I apologize if I come across that way, also, I changed "Immo Regulations" to "Flock Regulations" to kill any arguments over that). --FH14 20:12, 3 March 2008 (EST)
I have nothing else to add...Other than to point at the latest Flock video, which had page, image, transcript, and character background added and updated before even immo saw the video :D *is a good girl* Babygurl1853 19:51, 2 March 2008 (CST)
Has a final decision been made? After reading all this i don't actually see a clear meeting of the minds as to how the plan will be implemented. However if a final decision has been made it should be announced. Personally I think the final decision should be a set of voluntary guidelines rather than "regulations". It should be up to the users to decide how they are implemented, but it would give the admins a blueprint to "nudge" users in a helpful direction. It would also give the admins the freedom to move things around where there are no clear objections which I think would be the majority of situations.--modelmotion 15:30, 6 March 2008 (CST)
Basically Zoey told us to do nothing except discuss until she manages to get her computer fixed. I'm not sure when that'll happen, either. (I added a note to the schedule.)- Shiori 15:27, 6 March 2008 (CST)
I do not see why there is any need for special time lines because LGPedia already uses a system for tagging pages that are going to be modified. The same system will work fine here without specific regulations. That said, LGPedia admins need to apply the tags in a way that gives users adequate time to respond in the talk page, but I believe that is how they currently operate.--modelmotion 16:53, 6 March 2008 (CST)
Because the situation is different - normal pages get tagged as normal. This was about pages that wouldn't even exist under normal conditions. Also, the tags are practically open-ended. Just because something is flagged as cleanup doesn't mean anybody actually cleans it up. Yet, the promise that would've been made by the deal was that pages don't need to be worried about in the first place, thus, had it come as far as that we'd actually have to tag a Flock page, they would already have violated the deal.
As for whether we will proceed at all - I don't know. Zoey sounded like the Revamp would continue, but specifically said we're not supposed to go forward without her. We're kind of in limbo right now.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I think we need to make sure the voluntary guidelines work for everyone. I also think they need to be flexible enough to cope with all situations without making "deals". We want to ecourage people to build great pages, not force them into timetables. In general its pretty obvious when a page has been abandoned and when it has just not been updated. Such pages can be tagged and if there is no objection they can be edited/moved as is the normal procedure on LGPedia.--modelmotion 02:44, 7 March 2008 (CST)

I don't quite see the point of that. The reason for those "guidelines" was that they were not voluntary - that they were necessary control mechanisms to make sure Immo kept his part of the deal. Since Immo has no interest in the deal with them, they're more or less irrelevant anyway. (Not to mention that, as any pedian can confirm to you, that "forcing into timetables" was set up very generously - just ask Shi how or Babygurl how long they usually need to add a transcript, and then compare that to the week of slack allowed.)
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 13:29, 7 March 2008 (CST)
I simply do not see a need for "rules" to implement the "Tier System". The discussion on this page demonstrates that the normal wiki process works and voluntary guidelines for the entire "Tier System" are more in keeping with the philosophy of an entertainment wiki. I think that gives users the most freedom to be creative in their approach while allowing the pedia to retain the sense of order needed. The pages that have been tagged with the link to this discussion have had ample time to discuss their concerns and where those have been fully resolved I think its fair to proceed under the basis of voluntary guidelines. However where fans and series producers have concerns those should be discussed and resolved as is normal wiki procedure. However I think the creation of "rules" is a bad idea and does not serve the interests of the community.--modelmotion 14:30, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
Nobody was trying to implement "rules" for the Tier system. If you go and read the discussion, you will see that this entire section is an obsolete special case scenario purely for the Flock. It was a special case Tier 4 ruling, and had nothing to do with general regulation of the Tier system.
Frankly, as much as I value your input, it doesn't help that you keep trying to artificially create controversy by misstating the nature or intent of this discussion.
These were special case regulations for a special deal Immo brokered. Other than the placement of one series, they had nothing to do with the general Tier system, and due to Immo's decision not to accept the deal, they don't matter anymore. I see no reason to discuss them further.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:11, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
Technically, though Immo hasn't "accepted" this, the guidelines have been followed, be it intentionally or otherwise. Does that not count for something? So the pages will be deleted/altered because the deal "doesnt matter", even though the pages have been updated, without any need of admin interference? Which, I assumed, was the whole point in the first place?
Also, I don't like the use of the word "rules" - rules seem to make updating the pages feel more like work than doing it purely because you want to. Babygurl1853 22:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
I think as you guys manage to keep the upkeep on the series, it'll be fine. Of course, Ren was put in charge of making the deal, so who knows. As for the wording, would "general guidelines" be better? It all just semantics, you know. - Shiori 22:56, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
Babygurl, I think you misunderstand - that was exactly the point I was trying to make above. The regulations are so broad and lax that you could easily have followed them with no change of behavior. It would have been a mere formality to state you are willing to adhere to them and that you understand that, if you fail to do that, we'll convert the pages into a more managable format. Most likely, you would never have heard of the regulations again. It's merely a question of having someone officially responsible to keep the pages up-to-date, so no one can go "I didn't know I was supposed to do that!" afterwards. Immo was the one complaining, Immo is the creator of this series, Immo brokered the deal, thus, Immo was the one discussed. If you want to go rogue and take the responsibility yourself, fine with me. In case you don't know, it's a whole lot of work to delete a section as large as the Flock, and I'd much rather not have to do that. But we can't just keep it around without no one being responsible for the pages.
So, if you feel you can keep the pages updated within the above-mentioned regulations (and I, personally, have no doubt about that - I designed them generously on purpose) and you are aware we'll convert the pages if that doesn't happen, and you are willing to be responsible for making sure that happens, then fine. Just publically, formally, officially state that. The important thing is that you officially assume responsibility for the Flock UGC pages (likely, we'd contact you on issues regarding them, too), and that you clearly state you are aware the pages will be downgraded and converted if they go unmaintained as defined in the regulations.
If you can do that, fine. I really don't care if Immo is the one responsible, we just need someone responsible. And so far, no one volunteered.
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 23:42, 17 March 2008 (CDT)


See also