Talk:Knights Templar

Deletion

This article is another one that makes no attempt to connect itself to LG15. With other articles, such as Illuminati, cults, etc. I'd agree that there was speculation about it all and that they might be a source of inspiration for LG15. This however was just someone's free association starting with Gemma's "I don't mean like Knights of the Round Table" --> Knights ---> Knights Templar. There's just not a single other parallel with the series. OwenIsCool 17:28, 29 January 2007 (CST)

Old stuff pre-2007

This page is pretty disjointed, full of spelling and grammatical errors, as well as being a bit factually inaccurate: ie. the Knights Templar were not a secret society, but an actual order of knights. Their actual name was The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon. They were a christian military order that took part in the crusades.

Part of the beauty of a wiki is that if you see errors you can make corrections Your assistance in that process is certainly welcome. Some of the spelling errors are with a quote. In time we can probably analyse the quote and repace it with more accurate information.......but for now it serves as a starting point.--modelmotion 16:37, 18 November 2006 (PST)

The last edit created a nice summary of the Knighs but its almost a Wikipedia style article and I know that takes a lot of work so its great. However our goal here is to relate the Knights to the LG story or at least to the religious speculation that surrounds the story line. Some of the original information tried to do that and it would be nice if we could integrete that into the excellent reference material that has been added in the last edit.--modelmotion 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)

I really don't understand how that would be possible. Bree already said she wasn't a christian and we're talking about an order of christian monks/warriors that really don't fit. So, I just typed out what I knew about the Templars.

it would be good if you could add that information. Negative information that suggest something is not true is just as useuful to people like myself who are researching the topic. You make a good point and it would be great to have that incorporated into the page.--modelmotion 15:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Well, the problem I see with all this is that the Creators have stated it's not a real order or religion...that they've made it up as a work of fiction. So, no amount of trying to tie a real order in with it will work...because once you start investigating the real order, you realize that things do not fit. There are things from numerous real orders that DO fit, but if you take those similarities and try to say it's that order, you begin running into all the reasons that it can't be that order....because none of this aligns with any one order...and wasn't meant to. This order that Bree belongs to takes many inspirations, but doesn't exist in reality.

That was also my problem with trying to insinuate it was the OTO. For one, I'm a member of the OTO. It is something I cherish and hold dear. For someone to insinuate Bree's order is the OTO, it's virtually the same as accusing our order of cultlike behaviour: disregarding the wills of others and usurping them through threats and violence, kidnapping, etc. So, it's really a huge insult to try and pin this on a real order. For another, the OTO is not only a thelemic order, it's the largest group of thelemites in the world. So, by saying it's not Thelema, the creators are saying there is no way possible it's the OTO. This scenario is MUCH like someone saying "I'm not a christian" and the other replying "So, are you a Catholic then?"

So, I personally have problems with trying to pin Bree's order on any one order...partially because I've studied at least some about many of these orders and realize it can't be them, partially because I know the creators borrowed aspects of many different groups to make this order, and partially because of the insult factor involved with insinuating any legitimate order would be engaged in this type of criminal and otherwise terrible behaviour.

I haven't gotten around to making an account in here...and I guess I should do that soon. But, my IP address rarely changes so it's a good indicator of me. But, I'm tannhaus. I don't participate in the forums anymore..I stated my reasons there. I do, however, comment to the videos themselves at times, post video responses, and participate a bit in here. I do not know whether it was cast or crew that responded to my email. I've debated at times whether I should post the email that was sent to me. But, considering it might be helpful to others in seeing how the creators are drawing from many different sources, I will here. My email I sent to them was:

"I'm interested to know why the Creators took a real religion (Thelema) that has been much maligned in the past, the prophet of Thelema (Crowley), also much maligned, and make a series that is the very antithesis of Thelema and what Crowley worked his whole life to promulgate.

As a Thelemite, it's very disheartening to see my religion maligned and bashed once again, all for nothing. It does not add anything to your series to associate your cult with our religion. So, why do it?"

And their reply was:

"We understand and appreciate your question. Please know that it is not our intention to malign or discredit the Thelema religion. The religion we have created for this series is entirely fictional. It is as much related to fictional Chrisitain cults and secret societies as it is to Thelema."

If this upsets anyone involved in the making of the series that I would make this public, please remove it and I'll take that to mean that I shouldn't in the future.

Wow, that was incredibly insightful. Thank you very much for that. This is the first knowledge I have of the statement that the creators admitted that Bree's religion was ficticious. I had come to the conclusion that it was probably a combination of religions or orders and I think what we want to do in the LGpedia is identify what has been drawn from where and how it could all be fit together to make something that makes sense. Please understand that many of us are new to these topics and have only been drawn in by the LG series. People like myself know little more than what they read on wikipedia. Further any statements made by characters about what is true or not cannot be believed because of the nature of the series. Hence they only real information we have is the e-mail you received. That becomes a critical document in the history of LG15 and I hope that you will share it in a relevant article. You could also be of great value in guiding those of us who are new thru the various orders etc. Our goal here is not to insult anyone and if i contribued it was through lack of education about the topic. This started out as a source of entertainment and fun and I dont think anyone considerd the impact on those in the real world. In a way the series is a weird mixture of the real and the fictional and thats whats what makes it a little tricky. Still it should be our goal on LGpedia to link things to the LG story line and thats what we try to do. I certainly dont believe that The Oder is real for a number of reason, but that does not make it any less fun to document and explore. Some of that process involves exploration of groups such as the O.T. O. and we are very privaledged to have someon with your experience guide us. Hopefully if we work together we can create an LGpedia thats informative about these groups, shows how they are relevant and then clearly indicates how the real world groups differ from the ficticion land of LG15.--modelmotion 03:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Incidentally did you sent your e-mail before or after the Gemma video where she said it was not Thelema. If it truly is not connected then you might try asking the creators to remove the sign for Thelema from the Lonelygirl15 website. Its details like that that make me think Gemma is a liar. Perhaps her comment was actually in response to your e-mail--modelmotion 03

17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Well, after that reply from them, I sent the following reply:

"Well, my concern about this is even though you've made a fictional religion for the series, you use the prophet of Thelema, the unicursal hexagram - a symbol of Thelema, and actually write Thelema in greek at the bottom of your website. You and I both know what you're portraying has nothing to do with Thelema, but by writing out the name of the religion and using these other trappings of the religion, anything you say about Bree's religion makes it seem like you're saying it about Thelema...since you've indicated Thelema so much.

I would personally like to see Bree say that she's not a Thelemite...or that her religion isn't Thelema, in the videos. Since you've done so much to align it with Thelema in the minds of the viewers by using these symbols and the actual name of our religion, it would be a very nice gesture to see you distance yourself from a very real religion that some of your viewers hold dear to their hearts.

As you can see from the forums and the replies to your videos, people think the religion is Thelema and, if you look at all the elements you've incorporated into the website, you've practically spelled Thelema out for them. So, like I said, it would be a very nice gesture to see Bree distance herself from the religion of Thelema.

I personally like the videos and the style of entertainment you've provided, but think it could stand on its own just as well without bashing a religion, however inadvertently, in the process. I really do hope you consider this request. As thelemites we have endured many lies, malicious and ignorant, about our beliefs and our prophet. It would really be nice of you to distance yourself from that and not add to it.

Thank you and 93"

I sent that on November 5th at 12:45 AM. They didn't reply. Gemma's video was on November 9th. So, I took it to be their reply. I sent another email after the video thanking them, they replied to it and said no problem...that they're always out there listening to the fans. I personally am extremely grateful for their going the extra mile on this. It proves they do care about what implications their videos have.

As far as the OTO or any other group of thelemites being related to Bree's religion, I came into the forums to dispel that notion, John Crow, on thelemacoasttocoast, mentioned it in his series and dispelled the notion, and basically thelemites came out of the woodwork to say "This in no way resembles Thelema". For one, the law of Thelema is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under Will". For a brief explanation of that you can see: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib2.html . You may not understand that entirely, but it'll give you some idea that it doesn't mean what it appears to at face value.

Also, if you read the commentary to the Book of the Law which is here: http://www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comments.html then you will find where Crowley says "Interference with the will of another is the great sin". So, the very fact that they're trying to force anyone to do anything against their will flies totally in the face of Thelema and is the antithesis of what we believe in. That doesn't take into account the kidnapping and cult-like behaviour. Just the fact they're trying to force someone to do something is bad enough.

Well, I hope this helps.

Oh...as far as thelema being at the bottom in greek, darbyite designs is there also. Darbyite refers to the plymouth brethren. You can't take one as referring to bree's religion and not the other...there are two religions represented on the bottom of that website, both having nothing to do with each other, but everything to do with Crowley.

Again wow!!! A totally facinating account of events and to be honest I would like to see the emails posted within an article. You have convince me that you are either the genuine article or an insider trying to throw me off course. The good news is that I am 99.99 percent sure you are the former and I am glad you have shared this information. The reason your emails need to be in an article is that without official confirmation its hard to get people like me to reverse course. And you are absolutely correct in saying that many clues pointed to Thelema, so of course when Gemma's video cam out I concluded that it had to be a ploy by the creators to throw us off course. LG15 has cause everyone to be highly suspicious of any information related it it. I need to do a bit more reading and straighten out the relationship between Crowley and Thelema because the Crowley evidence is what sparked all of this off in the first place. I am going to try and help you fix up LGpedia to help you resolve your concerns but it may take a little time and hopefully a bit of feedback from you. Its incredibly valuable having an educated person like youself available to contribute. I probably have been responsible for a lot of specultation but in my defense i was only following the clues and as you point out they were laid out like bread crumbs to lead to certain conclusions. I even tried to confirm that the creators had direct control over the Lonelygirl.com web site which had been disputed in the beginning. However I believe that thats now officially confirmed. Perhaps you could let the creators know what they could do to remove any confusion via the design elements on the web site.--modelmotion 08:35, 21 November 2006 (CST)

I added the following to the Bree's religion page. I will let you "publish" your e-mails to support the assention if you choose to do so and it would really really really help! We have never had much from the Creators and the emails you got are incredibly informative.

Note that the Creators have indicated by email (source withheld at this time) that Bree's religion, to the extent that it is a religion, is not a real world religion but rather a ficticious creation that draws from a number of influences. To the extent that real world religions are referred to in this section it should be solely for the purpose of showing what influence was drawn from the groups. Certain religions may take offense by elements of the LG15 story line so please approach this subject with that in mind. --modelmotion 09:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Also, what do you think of this information: http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2005/12dec/knightstemplars.html. Its the origin source of the earlier claim that the Knight Templar were a secret society.--modelmotion 09:32, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Thank you very much. As far as the emails, you now have the information...so you can add them to an article if you wish. If they email me and tell me that I shouldn't have done that, I'll let you know and we can remove them. Otherwise, do what you think is right.

As far as the source for the Knights Templar info....I wouldn't consider that site a very credible source of information. Just looking over it, it looks way too hokey. Of course, things were done inside the Templar enclaves to be kept from the outside world....but that's most likely true of all ancient orders...military or otherwise. But, first and foremost, they were an order of christian warrior monks.

Thank you very much for your compliments. If you wish to a little about what Thelema is really like, check out my "A Thelemite Speaks" series. I made it to introduce thelemic thoughts and culture to those just coming into contact with Thelema. You might enjoy it.

OK, I posted the email (http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Email_exchange_with_the_creators) and linked them to the disclaimer on the Bree's religion pages. Thats a start. In time we can adapt any of the other information that might leave the wrong impression but at least that should clarify whats going on for other uses (many of us were totally confused by the Gemma video......it may have been a noble attempt but it made lilttle sense in the context of all the other clues that had been left).--modelmotion 11:15, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Note: I just added a page called Do what thou wilt so you may want to help fill out the details on that page.--modelmotion 02:39, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Ok...that's very cool. Something that may help you out is http://www.thelemapedia.org It's a wikipedia made by the thelemic community. I'm spending some quality time with my girlfriend and then my parents for Thanksgiving...so I'll be in short supply for a couple of days.