Talk:Main Page/Archive from Nov-Dec 2006
Main page format
I would like to see an index of sections at the very top of the page that would jump to the section below. As the page currenly is formattted it hides most of the wonderful content and makes user scroll down the page. Many studies have shown that some web users really hate to scroll unless its required to read a page. I think we can fix that with a and index and still give the admin the space at the top they need to make their points. I would just go ahead and do it but i know the Main Page is a pretty touchy property:)--modelmotion 08:26, 16 November 2006 (PST)
- MediaWiki sites automatically will make a table of contents once enough sections exist. -- Twjaniak 11:25, 16 November 2006 (PST)
Well we clealy have enough sections since I cant see most of the importand content without scrolling. What are we doing wrong?--modelmotion 11:36, 16 November 2006 (PST)
- I think we could safely archive the location discussion for now. We may revisit it in 30 days or as was discussed but for now its taking up too much space on this page. Anyone object?--modelmotion 19:23, 20 November 2006 (CST)
I still feel that the home page for LGpedia is overly dominated by insructions and notices. While communication with contributers is extremely important I think that leaving the content at the bottom is a mistake. Studies have show that users prefer not to scroll unless they have to. I think we could move some of the content up the page and move the notices to a right bar. That would be more functional for a non-contributing user and to be honest for myself.--modelmotion 13:43, 22 November 2006 (CST)
- Do we really need the large Welcome sign at the top......its taking up valuable real estate and really does nothing for us? Food for thought.--modelmotion 09:35, 23 November 2006 (CST)
if you want to keep the Welcome sign we could probably save some space with something like this:
I think the more content links we can show the more funtional the wiki (but i know you need some page at the top for important notices.Of course it could be designed so it looks much better than i have shown above.--modelmotion 17:09, 25 November 2006 (CST)
What is this???
- It's a Wiki for the Lonelygirl15 series. It's just beginning, and it seems that there is only one other user besides me who has started to contribute. Eventually, it will be like an encylopedia that anyone can edit. If you know how a Wiki works and would like to contribute, it'd be great. If you don't know how a wiki works, then maybe you should just look around and see how things work until a help page of sorts gets written up. --TheNunOwnedGoat 14:57, 29 September 2006 (PDT)
So what do we have to discuss on here?? ELLO POPPET! Cuz I noticed my last post was deleted.
- Your last post was deleted because you blanked the comments of previous users, which is generally frowned upon on talk pages.
- This is the talk page for the main page of the LGpedia; any suggestions or comments you have about the Main Page are the kind of thing we should discuss here. - Dharmabum420 03:42, 1 October 2006 (PDT)
Well I do have one suggestion. Its not on the main page but its on lg15.com Well u could add an rss later on when the website is done. It would be quite helpful. Anywayz Depends on u Thanks anywayz. Keep up the good work
- This is really strange.
I'm wondering if we really need all these locations. Most of these locations appear in only one video, and the information could just as easily be listed there. For the few locations that appear in multiple videos and therefore have some significance -- Bree's room, Daniel's room and Gemma's flat, I'm fine with keeping the pages. But a page for "The Chain Linked Fence"? I vote no.--JayHenry 13:02, 2 November 2006 (PST)
- Actually, there's another problem with the fence page, and that is that the location should really be "Daniel's friend's house" or something like that, and be the location of I Listened To Daniel. What might be a nice solution is to either compromise with an "Other locations" page like the did with Other fanfic, or maybe even better, have a single page for all the locations excepting Bree's bedroom. After all, with the exception of Lucy's apartment, all of these pages have only one or two sentences, and that location's information really fits best on the page Following The Helper. I say do away with all location pages (and the category, too) and only have pages for locations that really have enough info to warrant a page. (At this point, only Bree's bedroom, IMO.) Put the rest of the info on a single page called something like "Video locations" with sections for each location in the order they appear. --Brucker 13:20, 2 November 2006 (PST)
- I really think a Video locations page is unnecessary. Why not just include the information on these places in the videos in which they appear?--JayHenry 14:22, 2 November 2006 (PST)
I agree that there is a need to do away with superfluous pages. If someone would like to start consolidating the information, I can delete the unneeded pages upon completion. -- Twjaniak 14:10, 2 November 2006 (PST)
- Location are just as critical to any film/video production as characters, script etc. The locations reveal a lot of interesting information that is is ofter not covered in LGpedia. I thus think its a perfectly valid category and should be left alone. It will just take a little more work to improve the content...but as with any wiki its an on going process.--modelmotion 17:29, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- Absolutely. And nobody is saying that the locations should not be mentioned. What we are saying is that not every location needs its own page. Since most of these locations appear in only one video, it would be better to include location information in the video. I propose we delete all locations that appear in only one video, and move whatever information is on that page, to the video's page.--JayHenry 18:40, 15 November 2006 (PST)
I was going to spend some time working on the "Story up to now...} but if this is how its gonna be I am just going to put that energy into what I consider more important - the locations. I wish i had more time, but I will do what I can do. --modelmotion 19:07, 15 November 2006 (PST)
As for the number of times a location appears we have no idea which locations will appear in future episodes. As the series develops this could clarify things.....but unit that happens its easier just to have the total list. One solution would be to group some of the less freequent locations on new page....hum...let me give that a try--modelmotion 19:15, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- Ok Jay, thanks for the input. I moved things around a bit and I think that will allow us to keep all the locations and still meet your concerns. What do you think? I personally like having all locations pages to refer to......thats why I added most of them in the first place.--modelmotion 19:27, 15 November 2006 (PST)
Oh and I have already added addional content to some of the pages.--modelmotion 19:28, 15 November 2006 (PST)
Jay has requested that i respond to location pages only on this page, so I would like to object strongly to the deletion of any location page!!!!--modelmotion 19:30, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- I requested that you respond to the question: "does every location needs its own page?" on this page, and that issues about specific locations be addressed on their page. Modelmotion, do you understand that nobody is suggesting we delete any information. We just want things to be better organized, and most of these location-pages are just extra pages with useless or redundant information. Why should something like "The Chain-Link Fence" just not be mentioned in the video in which Daniel stands in front of it?--JayHenry 20:09, 15 November 2006 (PST)
The chain link fense is not the important part. Where the chain link fense is located is infact relevant. According to the page "The chain-link fence is outside the home of the friend Daniel is staying with when he records I'm Hiding Out." That is useful information. Now which friends is he referring to would help pin down that location.....but so far its unknown. However the purpose of this page is to discuss all aspects of the locations and what it might mean in terms of the plot. I dont see this informotion anywhere else.........and i personally think the new organization resolves most of the problem. I want to keep all the locations and I contribute a lot to this site. I do appreciate comments and suggestions but I dont like being pushed around. If you dont like my contributions just say so and I will go away because this heavy handed stuff is taking all the fun and enjoyment out of LG for me. "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law" --modelmotion 20:24, 15 November 2006 (PST)
Jay, you ask"I requested that you respond to the question: "does every location needs its own page?" on this page". My answer is categorically YES...and i have done my best to ensure that each new location was added to the list. Now some locations such as triving around are hard to categorise and can be discussed in the context of the major locations that are mentioned. A few locations were added by other contributers but they failed to add any details. I have tried to add what I could but like you, my time is liimited. However I am happy with the current list and I feel that it accurately portrays the locations that I feel need to mentioned. The use of the term chain linked fense was selected because its was more descriptive than Daniels friends which would have been highly ambiguous. So, there is a reason for picking these locations, there is a reason for naming them the way they have been named and each of the pages now has some relevant information which hopefully will provide a catalyst for discussion. Hence i see no need to delete these pages and no better way to organize the information. If I did I would be the first to move the stuff around so it would be where users can find it easily.--modelmotion 20:31, 15 November 2006 (PST)
Incidentally I real a lot of comments after the videos and terms that I use are often inflenced by how users talk about a subject. That is where the description came from for the chain linked fense, because if you go back and read the comments thats how users described the location.--modelmotion 20:33, 15 November 2006 (PST)
You actually said "Please continue the discussion at Talk:Main Page unless you have particular points to add about the Swimming Hole as deserving of its own page.--JayHenry 19:03, 15 November 2006 (PST)" I dont want to post redunant information all over the place because you are challenging multiple pages. I have therefore tried to keep it simple for you and make the case for all locations pages to be left alone.--modelmotion 20:38, 15 November 2006 (PST)
"Modelmotion, there's no reason for you to take this personally. I honestly don't understand why you're so upset, or what you feel is "heavy-handed." This wiki is a community effort, it's not your personal playground. Sometimes people disagree about how something should appear, and when that happens we have to discuss it. Please calm down.--JayHenry 20:44, 15 November 2006 (PST)"
my response (i dont even know the appropriate place to respond to these things
Well it is how I feel. I put a lot of effort into LG and while i feel you have the best intentions and actually make intelligent comments I feel at times that the pedia is taking itself a bit too seriously. We want to have fun.....we want to contribute. I totally understand your desire to make it the bet LGpedia that it can be, but if that requires crushing the spirit of a fan like me then I think you are missing the entire point. Free will is a central issue in LG. I dont believe in censorship and that beginning to happen more and more in the chats. Control can be a friend but it can also be the demon within. Just ask the participants in the Standford Prision experiment. I think i provide a pretty good solution by moving many of the locations off the main page. I went thru each of the pages and improved the content to better reflect what i think it should be. I think the use of pictures if very helpful in telling the story thru locations...........but thats as far as I am willing to go. The pages say they are up for deletion. They give no indication of when or how the process works . When you say there is not information to justify the page you are directly challenging my desire for the page to exist so of course I am going to get upset.--modelmotion 20:58, 15 November 2006 (PST)
OK, it appears i'm wading into a big debate among the lgpedia titans here, but my suggestion is that the "Other Locations page" that appears to be new should contain all the random locations on one page, and can provide links there to the page for the video that happened to discuss that page. like, for lucy's apartment, i'd want to see that Breaking and entering vid page anyway. we don't need to have a page for each separate location. no material needs to be deleted, it seems you are just talking about the best organization. anyhow, that's my 2 cents. --Milowent 21:07, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- As far as I am concerned that make life more complicated and since I have been a primary contributer to these pages and will contintue to do so I want to keep it as simple as possible. If you guys want to do all the work yourself then be my guest. If not, leave it the way that works for people spending time on the pages..............and i certainly dont limit that to myself. However I think the people who are making significant contributions should have their opinion heard. I know that Jay does a lot of work and tried hard to to keep things organized.......i just strongly disagree with his approach in this instance.--modelmotion 21:16, 15 November 2006 (PST)
Guys, I would really appreciate it if you all can take some time out from debating the importance of the locations to pool your resources instead and handle a topic that the Creators would love to see handled: The Story So Far.... This is a project that the Creators view as being the number one objective of LGpedia efforts at this moment. -- Twjaniak 21:50, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- I started the page last night and i began work on it earlier only to find that i have to spend a massive amount of time defending other pages. Like i said previoiusly something has to give and thats gonna be The story so far........good luck with that project....i am out of it now.
"Modelmotion, please calm down. I'm not going to post on this any further tonight, so you have some time to calm down and sleep on this. Look, here's a story: I designed the templates that we used in the old videos. I really liked that template. TWJaniak came along and designed a new template. Although I prefered the old template, TWJaniak's template was better organized and others liked it. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum, I posted my objection, but then I went along with the wishes of the community. Nobody was "censoring" me, we simply disagreed. That's all part of the process of working on a wiki. When editors disagree, we have to be able to discuss it calmly. Threatening to quit if you don't get your way is not the way decisions are made.--JayHenry 21:24, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- My position is that an viable alternative has not been proposed while it has been proposed that the pages be deleted. I provided a solution, I implemented that solution and I think that solution works very very very well. What does it take to get rid of the "deletions". I am quite willing to debate but I am not willing to live in tyrany. LG is about FREE WILL.......and i honestly believe that there are elemtents that want to control our every move on LG. There has been censorship in the chats and everyone know its......but thats a different issue.......and its WRONG. Lets not forget that this is about entertainment. That does not mean it can be sloppy or inaccurate but it does mean that users like myself need room to breath and the changes I have seen in the past 2 weeks strike me as tyranical given the nature of the subject. For example if people want to add their user names to the LG Chat room page then leave them in peace..........its not harming anyone. And yes Jay, I know that when users create pages in the wrong area that creates work for you......but we need to make that part of the education process of a wiki. We are not all experts here and some of us are leaning wiki for near the first time so we will make mistake. But instead of slapping people down and accusing innocent people of vandalism like some people have turn lets turn this into and education experience that rewards those that try. Incidentally I do not take kindly to the implication that I am having a temper tantrim. There is a difference between passion and random outburts of anger. I have a good reason to be upset and if you dont understand why I am upset maybe you should ask Bree.........i have a feeling she would understand me better. "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law"--modelmotion 22:26, 15 November 2006 (PST)
"modelmotion, I very much appreciate your contributions to LGpedia. What I do not appreciate is your apparent refusal to accept constructive criticism. You've frequently claimed that the way you want to see the location pages is an "all or nothing" affair. Such an attitude is not conducive to compromise or community involvement. The majority of community respondants to the issue, which in the case is pretty much just me and JayHenry, do not agree that your approach is the best way of handling location information. Nevertheless, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt to prove your point. You have a month to make the location pages a substantial contribution to LGpedia. You claim the that the location pages can offer important information that the respective video blog pages cannot; go ahead an make that happen. -- Twjaniak 06:57, 16 November 2006 (PST)
- The all or nothing comments are just a sign of my desperation to be heard. I think you are now listening and I think the one month idea if good. I have been busy with research in the religion section in response to some comments Jay made and I guess I hoped the location pages would pick up steam on their own, but i have been disappointed by the response to some of the pages. Its actually hard to find the time to go back inot the past while keeping up with the latest development but I think I have already improved most of the location points to the point where they provide useful information. I am still open to idea and if someone can propose a structure that can better mean the objectives of locations then I will always listen. However when I create a section I do so for a reason and i would request that the admin's consider the objective which i think is good...ie to have a central collecting point for location based information. It keeps the vlog pages nice and clean and moves more active speculation to where it belongs.--modelmotion 07:07, 16 November 2006 (PST)
"I would like to point out that my desire to improve the template for the vlbogs was sanctioned by the Creators who wanted a template that could support additional information such as cast and production information as well as be consolidated on a single spot on the page. The LGpedia is not quite like the Wikipedia where community consensus must agree before major changes take place. The Creators do get to have final say here; if they want a particular change, it happens. -- Twjaniak 22:00, 15 November 2006 (PST)"
I am not quite sure why you are talking to me about this. I basically dont care about the templates, it was Jay who raised that issue and solely to make a point. Templates are not the issue here. If you have inside information on how the Creators want this site controlled, censored or otherwise manipulated then spill the beans. Infact why dont the creators create their own page so they can tell us themself. As for me I would rather work on discussing the story and continuing my research. I would have been working on the Story up to now, but well we all know what happened to that (read above). If the Creators want to take control then this is not longer about FREE WILL. If its about a wiki then its the users that contol it. Thats the only way it can work.......otherwise is purely propagana and I did not sign up for that.--modelmotion 22:26, 15 November 2006 (PST)
- Yikes! What happened here? Putting in my $.02 as one of the other major contributors, I'd like to point out to modelmotion that while I appreciate your position and the way you feel, we're at the mercy of the fact that this is a community, and the will of a single member of the community is often going to be subsumed by the majority. That's a fact of life and of the system in place here, and I think comparing it to the Stanford Experiment is unfair and extreme. Information about locations ought to be here in the LGPedia, for sure, but the point others have made and I agree with is that just because information is useful doesn't imply that it needs a page all its own. Is there any information on The chain-link fence that couldn't go in the notes on I'm Hiding Out? Look, I'm entranced by a small detail I noticed in the Order of Denderah video, and thought it was worth discussing, but nobody else seemed to find it interesting. Not only did I not create a page for it--or even a page for "Daniel's religion", which would be a fair page to make, I think, even with a dearth of information--but I didn't even put it in the notes on that video for now. Yes, we do what we will in a wiki, but we also respect the community. For better or worse, that's what we're fated to, because you have a will, but so do I, and so does JayHenry and twjaniak. If more info is added to the location pages to make them more relevant, I'm all for keeping them, but adding a bunch of pictures doesn't make for more real content, because they're screencaps of videos that we've already seen. Oh, and as for the Creators making requests of us, I don't see a problem with it. Unless they are outright censoring us, I see it as just another part of free exchange of information. You're doing great work, don't get discouraged by all this. --Brucker 10:51, 16 November 2006 (PST)
Sometimes you have to go to extremes to cut thru the clutter and it clear where you stand. If people dont make it clear what they want then things will deteriorate. Design by committee is never a good idea and i have put a lot of work into the location pages. A picture is worth a 1000 words and these are not random screen shots. They are highly selective to make particular points. People actually prefer pictures and I think that if i can make a point with a picure its just as valid a communication tool. Further a location pages such as The model draws on multiple videos. I will save these pages or go down trying.--modelmotion 11:06, 16 November 2006 (PST)
- This is ridiculous. A wiki is design by committee. This is a community project. Modelmotion, you're bullying other users to get your way. If you want everything to be your way, then the Wiki is not the place for it. Design by committee is what a wiki is all about. You really need to calm down, be a little more mature about this, and be respectful to the other users of the Wiki.--JayHenry 11:18, 16 November 2006 (PST)
I am not saying there is not a place for discusssion, and Jay you actually have given me helpful input. But constructive comment and advice are the way to go, not tyrany or beaurocracy. As any art director about design by committee. The objective is not to lower quality to the lowest common denoninator by to tap the passion of invididuals. I dont see that they location pages are doing any harm and if noone else enjoys them I do and for me that is enough to justify their existence. Hopefully other users will enjoy enjoy what these.....at least until something better comes along. Its not me who is doing the bulling here....i have no power. I am solely exercisiing my opionion and that last time i check that allowed in wiki-land. So can we all just leave this alone now and give the pages the month I was promised to develop?--modelmotion 11:24, 16 November 2006 (PST)
Oh, and Brucker, nice catch on that detail. I hope you can find a good place to put it. I think its things that that which should be highlighted and discussed. Those issues are just as important as creating a video catalogue which has been done very very very well.--modelmotion 11:35, 16 November 2006 (PST)
- "A picture is worth a thousand words" is a saying that, while sort of true, doesn't neccessarily justify the content on those pages in and of itself. If the list of videos on the front page were removed and replaced by screencaps of each one, it would make the front page less efficient, informational, and all-around useful. When I look at the present location pages that are mostly a bunch of pictures, I just wonder why they've been placed there. Can we at least have captions and observations? --Brucker 15:41, 17 November 2006 (PST)
Special Request from the Creators
Its now past Nov 20!--modelmotion 06:38, 23 November 2006 (CST)
Jonas....official or not?
What standard are we using of proclaiming characters official or not. My litmus test would be whether or not they have been added to the official videos on lonelygirl15.com. A comment does not make it official. A mention in a video is probably not sufficient. A lot of cirsumstantial evidence is ok, but is it enought. A comment from the Creators in the forum might be interesting but if its not on the official list is it official. Jonas is probably official, but I do not believe he has yet been declared official....or did I miss something???? By the litmus test I suggest Jonas would not yet be official, but Gemma would be official. Any other suggestion on viable standard of proof?--modelmotion 15:31, 27 November 2006 (CST)
My thought is that if either the character's video appears as part of the official blog or the Creators verify the status, that ought to be the litmus test. Jonas is the first person to post a video other than Gemma that got a direct response from Bree (I've just been catching up from the weekend, and didn't realize at first that Bree did not merely mention Jonas, but posted her video as a response), which does indeed make it very likely he is canon, but I'd wait and see. Bree has mentioned the names of other users in the past, but I don't think that makes "etoilefrancaise" an official character. When she responded to Gemma, it became clear pretty quickly that she was canon, so if Jonas is also canon, I don't think we'll have to wait too much longer. --Brucker 16:34, 27 November 2006 (CST)
- Note that someone has already promoted Jonas to official status. Now we all suspect that is the case but does that mean it should be listed on the wiki as official. I would say he should stay unofficial until we have confirmation otherwise the standard gets fuzzy. Therre are other characters waiting in the wings to be promoted so i think we need some clear standard and I agree that the official video list is the clearest standard we have to date.--modelmotion 16:46, 27 November 2006 (CST)
I don't write that much on the wiki but I also feel that Jonas should be kept in fanfic until his vids start appearing on the left side of the Revver page where Bree, Daniel and Gemma's most recent are. How do we know Bree's mention of Jonas wasn't just a nod to his vids? She can acknowledge him without him officially being part of the storyline. Hm, I guess "officially" is a fuzzy word in the Breeniverse anyhow. OwenIsCool 23:39, 27 November 2006 (CST)
Just wanted to make a note of it: There was a massive HTML problem that basically destroyed the page. I'm not sure exactly what the author was trying to do, but it destroyed the page. I reverted it to the last good copy. --Andy 22:04, 25 November 2006 (CST)
Whether typos or intentional, I've seen a lot of British spelling on the LGPedia, and I don't think it belongs. I think the only place so far that British spelling should be used is in Gemma's dialogue. Everything else is taking place in America, so American spelling makes sense. --Brucker 16:38, 27 November 2006 (CST)
- I know you caught one from me. I am originally from Scotland so now and then a word slips out. I have no problem with the USA standard but from what I sense in the comments the show has gone Global. As a result you are probably going to be facing this problem a lot. You may even run into some resentment from Europeans who feel the English spelling is the correct one. This situation is made worse by the fact that Gemma is English and tends to use a lot of UK vocabulary. The internet has created a global village so I guess we are going to have to deal with some of the "side effects".
--modelmotion 16:56, 27 November 2006 (CST)
- As I said, I think British spelling is okay in many cases, such as Gemma dialog transcripts, and perhaps on pages about Crowley, since he's British. --Brucker 13:44, 29 November 2006 (CST)
An another spelling-related note, and perhaps there's a better place to put it... I've been referring to the videos put out by Jonas as "Jonas' videos", while I see there is now a category Category:Jonas's blogs. Research has shown me that either spelling is acceptable, but for somewhat obvious reasons, we need consistency internally. I'm willing to defer to the style of the preexisting page for both simplicity's sake and because I suspect most people prefer that style anyway.--Brucker 13:44, 29 November 2006 (CST)
- I believe that Jonas's is correct. I say we use that. Unrelatedly, we really need to figure out a better way to design this main page, don't we?--JayHenry 13:49, 29 November 2006 (CST)
- Both are correct. It's a stylistic choice, at least according to everything I've ever read. Anyway, I prefer Jonas'. --Ricket 14:15, 29 November 2006 (CST)
LGPedia vs. LGpedia
I was just wondering, what is the official spelling of LGpedia? I'm pretty sure that it's LGpedia, since that's what I see the most. But the main title in the Internet Explorer bar up top says LGPedia. If that can be reverted on the top Internet Explorer title bar, then that would be a good thing. --silverBULLET(x3) 17:58, 28 November 2006 (CST)
- How observant. I am impressed! I use LGpedia but you make a good point.--modelmotion 18:20, 28 November 2006 (CST)
The official style seems to be with a capital 'P', but it doesn't matter too much unless you're using a link.--Brucker 13:46, 29 November 2006 (CST)