Difference between revisions of "User talk:Abslch"

Revision as of 20:33, 11 May 2008

RE: Design discussion

Of course the majority of the argument stemmed from me. Because I was the only one who actually stood up to Zoey. Everyone just went into a "Okay, Zoey wants indicators, so let's do indicators!"-mode. Totally ignoring that she was the only one who deemed this necessary in the first place.

I openly admit that I'm the only one arguing on that page. But I'm also maintaining that I'm right, and I will also point out that Zoey, the one who caused all this trouble, was notably absent after she aggressively reverted the original design.

How is it "for the sake of the wiki, and the lgpedia and the whole community" if everybody just silently accepts Zoey as their personal dictator?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:25, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

Ren, I understand that you want to defend yourself, and I respect that. However, the way you are doing it is not acceptable. I find it ironic that in response to Abslch's post, you do the very thing that he/she pointed out you should not be doing: attacking other users personally. As I've said many times, I. Do. Not. Care. if you have an issue with Zoey. That does not give you a right to call her a "dictator" or personally attack her in any way. If you would like, we are willing to discuss this with you privately, if that is what it takes to get you to stop. Look, to be honest, I am just getting sick of this. We have warned you many times not to personally attack other users, and yet you continue to do so. Either you do not realize you are doing it (which I find unlikely) or you are blatantly ignoring LGPedia policy and doing it anyway. If this is what you are doing, we will be forced to take action if the personal attacks continue. Again, if you would like to discuss this privately, that is completely fine. Just please, don't force us to take drastic measures because you are unable to keep from personally attacking others.--Jonpro 18:44, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

And I find it ironic that you keep claiming this to be a "personal attack", yet, so far, nobody has shown any proof that I am factually wrong - it was Zoey alone who wanted the indicators, and it was Zoey who ignored consent and pre-warnings and aggressively reverted the page. What do you expect me to do? Artifically include you and Pheon and say "the administration" did it? That'd be incorrect. If you can prove I'm wrong, feel free to do so. But as far as I can see, all I'm doing is retelling what happened. It's not my fault Zoey acted alone - but since she did, I have no other choice than to mention her alone.

You also show several misconception that I feel the need to clear up:

1. I don't care if you care. Abslch directed a comment personally to me, and I replied to him personally. I even avoided putting this on the discussion page, and went here instead. This is a personal conversation between me and Abslch. To say "I. Do. Not. Care." when I didn't say a single syllable to you is more than presumptuous. If you don't care about what I say to Abslch, then don't read it! (Did I mention how impolite it is to hijack our conversation like this?)
2. I am not "defending" myself. I am very aware that all of you are going to bow to Zoey and do exactly what she wants just to get this over with. But I'm not going to play the good little sheep. Zoey had no reason to revert my change, she had no grounds to claim I tried to "overrule admins", and her allegations I was disrespecting her and even everyone else on this wiki were entirely bogus. Yet instead of actually supporting these wild accusations with factual evidence, she just waltzed in here, reverted what she didn't like, and vanished again. Because she knows herself she had no grounds for that revert. I made sure there was maximum consent on the revision. I changed large parts of the design to fit it to everybody's taste. I gave two advanced notices. There was nothing wrong with the way I proceeded (which you yourself actually admitted on the other talk page), and the large majority of people was happy. Zoey's "OMG we need link indicators" had exactly the same amount of backers as the "I think maybe the background needs another color than white." suggestion - yet I don't see an army of people trying to fix the background to Krisser's liking. And why not? Because Krisser is not an admin. Because Krisser cannot revert the change and ban dissenters. Check the discussion, Jon. Nobody was all "YES, ZOEY! I agree whole heartedly!". Afterwards, after her revert and wild accusations, model came forward and said "yeah, I agree". But he's the only one. Everyone else is just trying to find a solution because Zoey has proven that if she doesn't get her solution, nothing goes. It's as simple as that. People are not looking for a solution because they agree there is a problem - they are looking for a solution because they have no other choice. And at the same time, more and more comments keep pouring in that people like the layout...
   To return to your assumption - I am not "defending" myself. For one, I have no reason to defend my actions - as I outlined above, I did everything in cooperation with the community and with more than a week advanced notice. I did nothing wrong, therefore I have nothing to defend. Secondly, I know full well nothing I say will make any of you stray away from the flock. I will simply not allow the administration to cover up Zoey's aggressive suppression tactics as my fault. Had she wanted to stop the design as it was, she could've said something in the 11 days the notice was up. Or she could've said from the start "under no circumstances this is going live before I get my fix". She did neither. She waited until 21 minutes before live time, and then was still alone with her opinion. If she was any other user, there wouldn't even be a discussion about this. Had this been nancy, or shi, or anyone else, you'd all agree and say "well, sorry X, but nobody else saw a problem". The only reason this is an issue is because Zoey has the power to make it an issue. Zoey is the one who acted out of line here, and I will not let you put the blame on me. As long as the administration of this wiki tries to make up offenses out of thin air to get rid of me, I will talk back.
3. Lastly, I have played too many shadow games on this wiki to discuss anything regarding it in private. Say what you want to say out in the open, or don't say it at all. The only reason you could want to do it in private is denial anyway.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:51, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

First of all, when I said "defend yourself", I meant against Abslch's criticism of you on the redesign talk page. He/she pointed you out specifically so it's understandable that you want to make your case. That's all I meant. And it's ridiculous to say "I did nothing wrong, therefore I have nothing to defend." You defend yourself when someone else thinks you did something wrong, not when you think you did. I only defend my actions when I think I'm right.

Secondly, one of two things is happening here: either you did not understand the intent of my post or you are purposely arguing about something else to avoid the issue. I thought I made my the point of my post very obvious, but let me explain it again. I'm not arguing about who was right on the redesign issue. I am calling you out on an official pedia policy, which is "no personal attacks". You say, "I find it ironic that you keep claiming this to be a "personal attack", yet, so far, nobody has shown any proof that I am factually wrong", yet that's not ironic at all. Whether you are factually right or wrong has no bearing on what I'm trying to say. That's not the issue I brought up. The issue is that you are personally attacking another pedia user, something that is simply not acceptable on the LGPedia. It doesn't matter that it's Zoey, it's just she is the one you have chosen to attack. Again, even if you are right about the redesign issue, that gives you no justification for calling Zoey a "dictator" or being disrespectful in any way.

Thirdly, I have every right to "hijack" your conversation when what you say is in violation of pedia policy. Again, this makes me think you're not understanding my post, or purposely trying to make it out to be something else. And if that's what you're doing, it's not going to work forever. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but I think I've made my point very obvious here and in the past, yet you continue to ignore what I say.--Jonpro 10:15, 11 May 2008 (CDT)

Well, no matter when you defend yourself or how you define it, I don't feel like I'm defending myself, and I don't feel like I have to defend something, either. So, whatever.

As for your second point, you're still trying to paint this as a purposeful attack against Zoey. If you can come up with a good way how I can reference the side of this discussion which unnecessarily and aggressively reverted the page even though everything went in coordination with the community and according to policy without saying "Zoey" - fine. Tell me. But until you can, the fact is that Zoey was the one who had the problem, and Zoey was the one that reverted. If there is only one person on the other side, I have no other choice but to call her by name. This has nothing to do with Zoey personally. I love Zoey the girl. But Zoey the admin failed majorly that day, and Zoey the admin was the only person that failed that day. Zoey the admin is also the one who is notably absent from the discussion she forced upon us. So unless you can come up with an ambiguous, non-personal term that describes Zoey's position and actions without calling her by name, I have no other choice but to keep saying "Zoey".

Last point, you may have a right to interrupt anti-policy activities, but for one, I contest such activities were going on, and for two, that doesn't change the fact that "I. Do. Not. Care." implies that I was telling you in any way, and that was simply not the case - thus, my point stands: I don't care if you don't care - I didn't address you. I was talking to Abslch.

I'd respond longer, but I'm kinda drunk, so if you want more, wait until tomorrow.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 15:33, 11 May 2008 (CDT)