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Lonelygirl15
Forum to post messages about Bree and Danielbeast
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana
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 Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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I really don't see this series aspiring to be as spiritual as an M. Night movie.
I don't understand your insistance that Bree's father is alive. It's possible, but, again, highly unlikely.
RIP, Bree's dad.
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You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy.
I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
Proud member of the DB Fan Club.
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Languorous Lass
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Gone, baby, gone
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| platypusrex256 wrote: | if this was an m night shamalan flick (note, i am not trying to imply that i like his movies) then we would all be saying "oh i bet you they're all dead!" or some other illogical conclusion. however, in the constructs of an m night shamalan flick, that would probably be the most logical assumtion.
a paralel universe run by paralel logic? ;-p |
But even M. Night's films operate along a form of internal logic. For example, in THE SIXTH SENSE, we know from almost the very start that there is a kid who thinks he sees dead people. Therefore, the film's internal logic has established the possibility, for purposes of that film, that dead people exist in some sort of parallel plane or dimension, and that they can see what happens in our plane/dimension. As a result, the ending is shocking, but believable, because it makes sense within the film's own internal logic.
LG15, by contrast, has not established any logic within which a person who has been believed dead -- who, in fact, has been apparently murdered on-screen -- has actually been revealed to be alive.
For example (at least if IRC), we were never told that the girl previously chosen for the ceremony and her family were dead; we were just told (by Gemma) that the family suddenly disappeared one day, and that the community occasionally received communications purporting to be from the family. Therefore, having Tachyon turn out to be the chosen girl's sister makes perfect sense within the internal logic of LG15.
Similarly, we've been told that Jonas's parents were lost at sea and that their bodies were never found. Therefore, even if one or both of his parents pop up, alive, within the storyline some day, the internal logic of LG15 has not established that they were actually dead.
The instance of Bree's dad's death is different. We saw him shot on screen. We saw him dumped into the trunk of the car. Most important, we've had an entire memorial video dedicated to his memory. Therefore, the internal logic of LG15 has clearly established that he is dead.
If he were to pop up, alive, within the storyline at this point, the internal logic of LG15 would be badly damaged. |
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PinkoLady
Devoted Fan
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 849
Location: Looking for Tachyon...
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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But there are plenty of movies where you see things-- someone get shot, someone get dumped somewhere, people mourning-- that don't turn out to be what they seemed, because there's an alternate explanation like, "I was shot, and they assumed I was dead so they put me in the trunk-- however, the bullet missed my [some crucial organ] so I survived" etc. or that the entire thing was staged for Bree to scare her into doing the ceremony/whatever. It's not always great, but the story doesn't completely fall apart because of it.
While I don't think it's likely, and I definitely don't think should dwell on the possibility that he's still alive, I think LG15's internal logic would remain intact if he turned out to be alive, if they had a decent enough explanation.
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Languorous Lass
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 2571
Location: Gone, baby, gone
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm thinking about Bobby Ewing in the shower. 
IOW, it could be done, and an explanation could be provided, but . . . |
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platypusrex256
Enthusiastic Fan
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Languorous Lass wrote: |
But even M. Night's films operate along a form of internal logic. For example, in THE SIXTH SENSE, we know from almost the very start that there is a kid who thinks he sees dead people. Therefore, the film's internal logic has established the possibility, for purposes of that film, that dead people exist in some sort of parallel plane or dimension, and that they can see what happens in our plane/dimension. As a result, the ending is shocking, but believable, because it makes sense within the film's own internal logic.
LG15, by contrast, has not established any logic within which a person who has been believed dead -- who, in fact, has been apparently murdered on-screen -- has actually been revealed to be alive.
For example (at least if IRC), we were never told that the girl previously chosen for the ceremony and her family were dead; we were just told (by Gemma) that the family suddenly disappeared one day, and that the community occasionally received communications purporting to be from the family. Therefore, having Tachyon turn out to be the chosen girl's sister makes perfect sense within the internal logic of LG15.
Similarly, we've been told that Jonas's parents were lost at sea and that their bodies were never found. Therefore, even if one or both of his parents pop up, alive, within the storyline some day, the internal logic of LG15 has not established that they were actually dead.
The instance of Bree's dad's death is different. We saw him shot on screen. We saw him dumped into the trunk of the car. Most important, we've had an entire memorial video dedicated to his memory. Therefore, the internal logic of LG15 has clearly established that he is dead.
If he were to pop up, alive, within the storyline at this point, the internal logic of LG15 would be badly damaged. |
everything you say holds true excpet for the fact that bee's father was not killed onscreen. we heard gunshots and a lot of shakey camera movements.
if you look back to page two or three, you can see that someone made screenshots that will perhaps make you question the idea that bree's father is dead.
most obviously, we have yet to see bree's father's body upclose. perhaps less obviously, we have yet to see bree's father's body from far away. there is no evidence that he is dead.
the argument in this form pertains to the fact that although there is no evidence pointing to the fact that he is alive, i insist that the lack of such evidence is evidence that he is alive and just waiting to rear his fatherly head later on just to spook us and say "gotcha!"
and i referenced m night because i knew everybody would be able to recognise his movies their paralel logic. |
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platypusrex256
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| longlostposter wrote: | I really don't see this series aspiring to be as spiritual as an M. Night movie.
I don't understand your insistance that Bree's father is alive. It's possible, but, again, highly unlikely.
RIP, Bree's dad. |
i am no trying to compare lg to an m night fraudulon (aka shamalan) movie...
tangent: i personaly feel that an episode of the twilight zone (specificly the one that he ripped the ENTIRE plot of the village off of) is more spiritual than anything m night did.
i'm just saying bree's father being alive in not likely in real life, but it is completley likely in the contstructs of a paralel "breenivurse" |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| platypusrex256 wrote: | | there is no evidence that he is dead. |
There was the gunshot, and the report of his body on the ground and then being loaded into a truck. While not definitive proof, it is evidence (which is greater in quantity and quality than evidence in the opposite direction). So to say there is no evidence that he's dead would be incorrect. |
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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As I said, possible, but not likely. Even the characters believe he is dead, and I don't think Bree would believe that without good reason.
Lack of evidence is not evidence in and of itself. In the case of a jury trial, it could not be admitted as evidence. The only thing the lack of evidence produces in this case is doubt; IOW a doubt of actual guilt.
I'm so befuddled by this thread, that I don't even know if my logic is sound. I'm done here.
_________________
You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy.
I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
Proud member of the DB Fan Club.
Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker. |
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platypusrex256
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| longlostposter wrote: | As I said, possible, but not likely. Even the characters believe he is dead, and I don't think Bree would believe that without good reason.
Lack of evidence is not evidence in and of itself. In the case of a jury trial, it could not be admitted as evidence. The only thing the lack of evidence produces in this case is doubt; IOW a doubt of actual guilt.
I'm so befuddled by this thread, that I don't even know if my logic is sound. I'm done here. |
im done with this thread, too. this is my last post here. i hope.
once more, a lack of evidence is generaly not evidence in itself. however, lack of evidence IS evidence in context of this universe, communicated through this medium.
and if we were watching a fictional movie, i dont think we would be having this rediculous discussion ;-p |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| platypusrex256 wrote: | | once more, a lack of evidence is generaly not evidence in itself. however, lack of evidence IS evidence in context of this universe, communicated through this medium. |
But that's the thing: there isn't a lack of evidence.
| platypusred256 wrote: | | and if we were watching a fictional movie, i dont think we would be having this rediculous discussion ;-p |
We would be. The same rules apply to all the mediums of storytelling in my opinion. It remains the difference between entertaining all possibilities or only those with evidence. |
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islandlove
Devoted Fan
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 576
Location: nyc area
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not really sure if he is dead, but we cant be completely sure that he is dead or that he is alive |
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platypusrex256
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Lurker wrote: | | platypusrex256 wrote: | | once more, a lack of evidence is generaly not evidence in itself. however, lack of evidence IS evidence in context of this universe, communicated through this medium. |
But that's the thing: there isn't a lack of evidence.
| platypusred256 wrote: | | and if we were watching a fictional movie, i dont think we would be having this rediculous discussion ;-p |
We would be. The same rules apply to all the mediums of storytelling in my opinion. It remains the difference between entertaining all possibilities or only those with evidence. |
did i say i was done? ack. well i guess this is just an agree to dissagree because i'll feel rediculous arguing if there is evidence or not.
1) we heard gunshots
2) we heard a report that bree's dad was carried into a car
VS
1) we didn't see bree's dad get shot
2) we didn't see bree's dad get carried into the car
3) we didn't see bree's dad being dead
and i'd also feel rediculous arguing weather or not different rules apply to storytelling versus real life.
such common expressions such as "expect the unexpected" and "anything that can go wrong, will go wrong" just go to show that i'm not crazy in saying "because it can't be confirmed as false, it is very very likley to be true"
so if bree's father winds up alive, will you send me $100 in the mail? j/k |
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Lurker
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| platypusrex256 wrote: | did i say i was done? ack. well i guess this is just an agree to dissagree because i'll feel rediculous arguing if there is evidence or not.
1) we heard gunshots
2) we heard a report that bree's dad was carried into a car
VS
1) we didn't see bree's dad get shot
2) we didn't see bree's dad get carried into the car
3) we didn't see bree's dad being dead |
We were give no reason to doubt the report of his body on the ground and then in the car. Until such time as we are, there actually is no lack of evidence for the man being dead.
So it's actually:
1) We heard a gunshot
2) We were told he was on the ground and then his body placed into a car
3) If they were going to shoot him and try killing him in the first place, if that shot didn't kill him, it stands to reason they'd make sure they'd succeeded before all was said and done
VS
0) Nothing yet
That's really how the evidence stacks up. If, however, Bree or Daniel were to begin questioning Jonas' report, or he were to be revealed as an operative of OpAphid, then we'd have reason to think about it differently. If either of those things happens, then I would say the fact that LG15 is a fictional work gives us reason to question how much we can believe what was reported.
| platypusrex256 wrote: | | such common expressions such as "expect the unexpected" and "anything that can go wrong, will go wrong" just go to show that i'm not crazy in saying "because it can't be confirmed as false, it is very very likley to be true" |
Wha? If that were so, everything from platypuses being extinct in Bree's world to Tachyon being male to Daniel being OpAphid to soda not existing would have to be "very, very likely to be true."
| platypusrex256 wrote: | | so if bree's father winds up alive, will you send me $100 in the mail? j/k |
No, but I will publically congratulate you for predicting it and apologize that I didn't give it more consideration.
Anyway, I agree that this is a ridiculus dispute, so I'm probably going to let it go here. I think we both have a good idea of where one another stands. Unfortunately, we may not fully understand why (though I think I sort of get where you're coming from; I just don't think you're connecting the dots appropriately), but at least we know where, and that's good enough for agreeing to disagree. |
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longlostposter
The Order of Denderah
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 5186
Location: Louisiana
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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My dad said my cat was dead, but I don't believe him because I didn't see the body.
_________________
You can call me Juli or LLP, whichever suits your fancy.
I want the ghost of Jim Morrison to come and haunt me.
Proud member of the DB Fan Club.
Shout outs to my beautiful daughter badkittyx1505, Aithne, and Lurker. |
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cosmicdancer
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Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 465
Location: on the road.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I think we have more important and relevant things to theorize about now than whether or not Bree's father is dead. There is more proof that he is dead than that he isn't. Therefore I think we should just leave it at that until the Creators decide to give us reason to believe otherwise. |
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