RE: Design discussion
Of course the majority of the argument stemmed from me. Because I was the only one who actually stood up to Zoey. Everyone just went into a "Okay, Zoey wants indicators, so let's do indicators!"-mode. Totally ignoring that she was the only one who deemed this necessary in the first place.
I openly admit that I'm the only one arguing on that page. But I'm also maintaining that I'm right, and I will also point out that Zoey, the one who caused all this trouble, was notably absent after she aggressively reverted the original design.
How is it "for the sake of the wiki, and the lgpedia and the whole community" if everybody just silently accepts Zoey as their personal dictator?
- Ren, I understand that you want to defend yourself, and I respect that. However, the way you are doing it is not acceptable. I find it ironic that in response to Abslch's post, you do the very thing that he/she pointed out you should not be doing: attacking other users personally. As I've said many times, I. Do. Not. Care. if you have an issue with Zoey. That does not give you a right to call her a "dictator" or personally attack her in any way. If you would like, we are willing to discuss this with you privately, if that is what it takes to get you to stop. Look, to be honest, I am just getting sick of this. We have warned you many times not to personally attack other users, and yet you continue to do so. Either you do not realize you are doing it (which I find unlikely) or you are blatantly ignoring LGPedia policy and doing it anyway. If this is what you are doing, we will be forced to take action if the personal attacks continue. Again, if you would like to discuss this privately, that is completely fine. Just please, don't force us to take drastic measures because you are unable to keep from personally attacking others.--Jonpro 18:44, 10 May 2008 (CDT)
- And I find it ironic that you keep claiming this to be a "personal attack", yet, so far, nobody has shown any proof that I am factually wrong - it was Zoey alone who wanted the indicators, and it was Zoey who ignored consent and pre-warnings and aggressively reverted the page. What do you expect me to do? Artifically include you and Pheon and say "the administration" did it? That'd be incorrect. If you can prove I'm wrong, feel free to do so. But as far as I can see, all I'm doing is retelling what happened. It's not my fault Zoey acted alone - but since she did, I have no other choice than to mention her alone.
- You also show several misconception that I feel the need to clear up:
- I don't care if you care. Abslch directed a comment personally to me, and I replied to him personally. I even avoided putting this on the discussion page, and went here instead. This is a personal conversation between me and Abslch. To say "I. Do. Not. Care." when I didn't say a single syllable to you is more than presumptuous. If you don't care about what I say to Abslch, then don't read it! (Did I mention how impolite it is to hijack our conversation like this?)
- I am not "defending" myself. I am very aware that all of you are going to bow to Zoey and do exactly what she wants just to get this over with. But I'm not going to play the good little sheep. Zoey had no reason to revert my change, she had no grounds to claim I tried to "overrule admins", and her allegations I was disrespecting her and even everyone else on this wiki were entirely bogus. Yet instead of actually supporting these wild accusations with factual evidence, she just waltzed in here, reverted what she didn't like, and vanished again. Because she knows herself she had no grounds for that revert. I made sure there was maximum consent on the revision. I changed large parts of the design to fit it to everybody's taste. I gave two advanced notices. There was nothing wrong with the way I proceeded (which you yourself actually admitted on the other talk page), and the large majority of people was happy. Zoey's "OMG we need link indicators" had exactly the same amount of backers as the "I think maybe the background needs another color than white." suggestion - yet I don't see an army of people trying to fix the background to Krisser's liking. And why not? Because Krisser is not an admin. Because Krisser cannot revert the change and ban dissenters. Check the discussion, Jon. Nobody was all "YES, ZOEY! I agree whole heartedly!". Afterwards, after her revert and wild accusations, model came forward and said "yeah, I agree". But he's the only one. Everyone else is just trying to find a solution because Zoey has proven that if she doesn't get her solution, nothing goes. It's as simple as that. People are not looking for a solution because they agree there is a problem - they are looking for a solution because they have no other choice. And at the same time, more and more comments keep pouring in that people like the layout...
To return to your assumption - I am not "defending" myself. For one, I have no reason to defend my actions - as I outlined above, I did everything in cooperation with the community and with more than a week advanced notice. I did nothing wrong, therefore I have nothing to defend. Secondly, I know full well nothing I say will make any of you stray away from the flock. I will simply not allow the administration to cover up Zoey's aggressive suppression tactics as my fault. Had she wanted to stop the design as it was, she could've said something in the 11 days the notice was up. Or she could've said from the start "under no circumstances this is going live before I get my fix". She did neither. She waited until 21 minutes before live time, and then was still alone with her opinion. If she was any other user, there wouldn't even be a discussion about this. Had this been nancy, or shi, or anyone else, you'd all agree and say "well, sorry X, but nobody else saw a problem". The only reason this is an issue is because Zoey has the power to make it an issue. Zoey is the one who acted out of line here, and I will not let you put the blame on me. As long as the administration of this wiki tries to make up offenses out of thin air to get rid of me, I will talk back.
- Lastly, I have played too many shadow games on this wiki to discuss anything regarding it in private. Say what you want to say out in the open, or don't say it at all. The only reason you could want to do it in private is denial anyway.
- First of all, when I said "defend yourself", I meant against Abslch's criticism of you on the redesign talk page. He/she pointed you out specifically so it's understandable that you want to make your case. That's all I meant. And it's ridiculous to say "I did nothing wrong, therefore I have nothing to defend." You defend yourself when someone else thinks you did something wrong, not when you think you did. I only defend my actions when I think I'm right.
- Secondly, one of two things is happening here: either you did not understand the intent of my post or you are purposely arguing about something else to avoid the issue. I thought I made my the point of my post very obvious, but let me explain it again. I'm not arguing about who was right on the redesign issue. I am calling you out on an official pedia policy, which is "no personal attacks". You say, "I find it ironic that you keep claiming this to be a "personal attack", yet, so far, nobody has shown any proof that I am factually wrong", yet that's not ironic at all. Whether you are factually right or wrong has no bearing on what I'm trying to say. That's not the issue I brought up. The issue is that you are personally attacking another pedia user, something that is simply not acceptable on the LGPedia. It doesn't matter that it's Zoey, it's just she is the one you have chosen to attack. Again, even if you are right about the redesign issue, that gives you no justification for calling Zoey a "dictator" or being disrespectful in any way.
- Thirdly, I have every right to "hijack" your conversation when what you say is in violation of pedia policy. Again, this makes me think you're not understanding my post, or purposely trying to make it out to be something else. And if that's what you're doing, it's not going to work forever. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but I think I've made my point very obvious here and in the past, yet you continue to ignore what I say.--Jonpro 10:15, 11 May 2008 (CDT)
- Well, no matter when you defend yourself or how you define it, I don't feel like I'm defending myself, and I don't feel like I have to defend something, either. So, whatever.
- As for your second point, you're still trying to paint this as a purposeful attack against Zoey. If you can come up with a good way how I can reference the side of this discussion which unnecessarily and aggressively reverted the page even though everything went in coordination with the community and according to policy without saying "Zoey" - fine. Tell me. But until you can, the fact is that Zoey was the one who had the problem, and Zoey was the one that reverted. If there is only one person on the other side, I have no other choice but to call her by name. This has nothing to do with Zoey personally. I love Zoey the girl. But Zoey the admin failed majorly that day, and Zoey the admin was the only person that failed that day. Zoey the admin is also the one who is notably absent from the discussion she forced upon us. So unless you can come up with an ambiguous, non-personal term that describes Zoey's position and actions without calling her by name, I have no other choice but to keep saying "Zoey".
- Last point, you may have a right to interrupt anti-policy activities, but for one, I contest such activities were going on, and for two, that doesn't change the fact that "I. Do. Not. Care." implies that I was telling you in any way, and that was simply not the case - thus, my point stands: I don't care if you don't care - I didn't address you. I was talking to Abslch.
- I don't have a problem with your pointing out Zoey specifically if it's her actions you have a problem with. I'm not asking you to dance around what you're trying to say. And I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say it's nothing personal against her. However, the way you say things makes it seem like it is. On the redesign talk page, you accused her of "[fucking] over community discussion and consensus." That's not really the most respectful language and you're accusing her, personally, of not caring about the desires of the community or the way the pedia is supposed to work. You went on to say that the only reason things weren't going ahead is because she was "pissed off because [you] didn't give [her] the opportunity to shoot it down in silence." Again, that's a harsh accusation. Later, you claim that we are "[cowering] in fear of Zoey's wrath". This implies that Zoey is somehow forcing us to act the way she wants, which, again, is quite an accusation to make. I could go on, but hopefully you see the point. Now, like I said, maybe you really don't have anything personal against Zoey, but the way you talk about her makes it seem like you do. And I'm not the only one who sees things this way. (Example: Look whose talk page we're discussing this on.) So all I'm asking is that you make sure you focus your criticisms on the discussion and what should be done, instead of going after one person in a way that appears vindictive to people reading it.
- Oh, and about the "I. Do. Not. Care." thing, maybe that was a bit harsh, and I know you were not directing it at me. The point I was trying to make is that it didn't matter to me if you had a personal problem with Zoey because that gives you no right to attack her. The way I said it was just a way to vent frustration at the issue and I realize now that my frustration is really irrelevant.--Jonpro 23:23, 11 May 2008 (CDT)
- And I stand by that. The revision history and the remnants of discusson on that page show quite well that this layout was a community effort, that we all worked towards a common goal, and I believe the comments section speaks for itself. As I pointed out above - Zoey's complaint about icons had just as much backing as the suggestion to change the background color. Yet I don't see a large week-long discussion about what to change the background color to. There was consent. There was a long discussion that lead to the design I put live. And Zoey overruled all of that and reverted. How is that not "[fucking] over community discussion and consensus"?
- So far, I did not see her contest it. And it's been three weeks since I said that. Then again, I wouldn't expect her to admit that, either.
- Again, same example - you had one vote for changing the icons, and one vote for changing the background color. Did Krisser revert the layout, yell and make up offenses, and then everybody jumped and started to change the background? Nope.
- Just check it out - look at the course of the Character Icons discussion. The initial discussion did not even run 24 hours, then everybody had moved on to other things already. I posted updates on other stuff, and six days later, on my own accord, without any further suggestion, I added more overlay stuff to appease Zoey. And what happened? Nothing. For another 6 days, nobody cared. Then, Nancy said she liked it, Zoey said she didn't like it, and FH14 suggested a different solution? ...and then? Right! Silence. For another 10 days, until Zoey showed up and inquired if it was being worked on.
- Do you see the pattern? The character icons are only an issue when Zoey is around. Every single time, as soon as Zoey left, the discussion died. Simply because nobody else cared.
- So, I stand by that accusation - this is not an issue because anybody thought it was necessary. This is an issue because Zoey made very clear the design would not go live without the indicators she wants, and left the rest of the community no other choice but to do her bidding in order to get the design live.
- I will go on.
- Well, so far, all you two (you and Abslch) have done is complained that I argue - neither of you has shown that anything I said was wrong. Especially considering that, no matter how much you'd like to talk it away, half of it was actually valid criticism about the approach - the original problem was that Zoey wanted to make absolutely, 100% clear the icons were links - and then model came up with a solution that required deduction and testing on a wider community. In other words: It does not fit Zoey's requirements. It's not my fault model was of a different opinion, and then started Apple evangelism. Of course, Since Zoey magically disappeared since she brought chaos and destruction, and she won't dare to pull the same shit with you as with me, it doesn't matter. The half-assed version that satisfies neither side will stay.
- Point is, instead of continuously claiming "personal attack!!!!" and pretending I'm wrong by default, maybe you should get up and actually show that I'm wrong, if you think so. Saying the truth is not a personal attack.
- Zoey abused her power to force her will upon the community, reverted a redesign made in accordance with tradition, policy and the will of the community, and then made up ridiculous and so far unproven allegations against me to justify her actions.
- If you think I'll just shut up and watch Zoey ruin my reputation to save hers, you're wrong.
- Allegations that I overruled admins, disrespected the community and acted without consensus, paired with a threat of "consequences", are not "personal problems", and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop claiming that.
- It's not my fault Zoey doesn't have the balls to come out and admit none of that was true. But until she does, her accusations stand there and all I can do is hold against them.
- Do you think I'm stupid? Do you think I don't see her on recent changes? Do you think I don't realize she purposefully avoids the discussion? She knows full well she has nothing to back up her bullshit, so she simply doesn't even try. And all the while, I'm sitting in limbo, with a fucked up reputation, on the brink of getting banned.
- Silence is not proof. The fact that Zoey doesn't say anything does not automatically mean she was right. I have shown you the history of the issue above and linked you to the vast amount of comments that approved of the design.
- What has Zoey shown to you that justified her actions?