Difference between revisions of "LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp"

Latest revision as of 06:50, 6 August 2008

This article has been nominated for deletion

Reason: As this project has been all but abandoned for months, I suggest the same standard and logic that was utilized and discussed in it with regards to fanfiction be applied to it and that it be removed from the LGPedia. See Discussion

Please discuss this proposal on this article's talk page

Phase 2 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is currently in progress. Please do not initiate any further discussion - any late concerns with the current Tier listing can be addressed in later requests for re-evaluation. Click here for further information on the process.

Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been archived in order to keep the page tidy.

Glossary

Tier 1	Tier 1 Fanfic is not notable enough to get listed on LGPedia. All vlogs not belonging to a series fall under this category. (Singular notable vlogs may be listed on a single listing page in the future.)
Tier 2	Tier 2 Fanfic gets a single page with a few basic facts like creators, general plot/topic outline and maybe a list of characters.
Tier 3	Tier 3 Fanfic gets a comprehensive single page, including a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, and similar additional information.
Tier 4	Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)
Tier 5	Tier 5 Fanfic are all "big" series, like OpAphid, Maddison Atkins or Redearth88. They get the same array of pages as canon series, including templates, character/actor pages and categories.

Criteria

The important and sole decisive criterion is notability. Is a series notable enough to be listed at all, and, if yes, how notable is it?

Unfortunately, notability is very subjective. As such, we have to fall back on objective data to decide whether a series is notable. Such objective data can be:

Did the series become canon at one point in its life? (Example: OpAphid)
Did the series get a shoutout or referred to in a canon episode? (Example: Paulmark18)
How many people in the community have seen the series? (Example: Maddison Atkins)
How many people in the community have heard of the series? (Example: Immant, Cassieiswatching)
How many views do the videos of the series have on average?
How many episodes does the series have?
How many main characters are there? (Just one vlogger, or an entire cast?)
How big/complex is the production? (Just one vlogger with a webcam, or an entire crew with multiple sets and scripted episodes?)
And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered? (Example: Lonelygirl362436 - technically a rather small series, but highly notable because it was produced by the Creators, had Daniel in it and a well-known hollywood actress as its lead.)
[Please expand this list]

List of fan series currently archived on the pedia

Suggested Tiers

Please see LGPedia:UGC Tier List. Do not edit that page, though.

Mission

We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)

Schedule

Almost exactly three months after this project has come to life, there now seems to be a large consent on the initial Tier listing; while there are still minor details to wait for until we can finalize the Tier 3/4 listing, Tiers 1 and 2 are finalized, and, as such, the Phases only related to these Tiers can begin.

As of Tuesday, April 1st, 2008, 03:26 GMT, Phase 2 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is running. See below for details.

The Revamp will proceed as follows
- Phase 1: Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.
- Phase 2: Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.
- Phase 3: Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
- Phase 4: Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
- Phase 5: Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
- Phase 6: Find and correct references to UGC content.
- Phase 7: Declare Revamp over.
- Phase 8: Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control Flock Regulations.

Page-list

Central portal
List of videos
Templates:
- Bottom index
- Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use Template:FakeBlog directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
Character pages
Actor pages
Categories to group it all together

Flock Regulations

The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page.
Reasons for revocation can be:

Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.

NOTE: An extension will be granted for characters who have suddenly become canon. Obviously updating under these circumstances will take longer than normal.

Reasons can and will be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do not have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.

Discussion

The Coalition

They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --Pheon 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

No, in my opinion, for the following reasons:

HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
And this is the most important one, in my opinion: Everyone can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.

Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page we will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.

(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)

(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)

On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on The Coalition page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - Shiori 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.

God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition. But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--Immortal1 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.

(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - Shiori 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements? Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--modelmotion 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure. You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence. How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--modelmotion 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Anyone?--modelmotion 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.

I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - Shiori 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

There are 4 series so they each should have a page. The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series. As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory. The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--modelmotion 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - Shiori 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.

You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was their decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to The Coalition instead of independent pages. It was their decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into The Coalition, or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting The Coalition, because then, The Coalition is not a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.

Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

"The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them. I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.

The Coalition is set up similar to RE88. RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in. The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in.
The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.
They have a forum presence.
FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.
They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation) It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.
It features immersive interaction with members of the community.
There are a high number of characters including live action characters.
Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.

It meets just about every criteria set forth. My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump? But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page. If you can, more power to you. I look forward to the end result.

Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--Immortal1 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured. I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure. There are always elements that are "up in the air" but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--modelmotion 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?

Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages because The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.

The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and "hits" on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, The Flock all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth nothing if no one comes to eat.

You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?

I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.

The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?

Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock alone has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, nobody cares.

Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it would place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there is a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages at all. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?

In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of "identity crisis" problem - are these series all together one complex "The Coalition", or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will-O-Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate "List of Facility J links" or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.

So, especially because your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:

Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.
Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?
Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)
Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we will need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.

Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of "Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention." does not need 200 pages.

Just one.

If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Not proofread.

At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.

There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.

There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.

You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list.

I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--Immortal1 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.

Immortal1 said:

“

”

At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility. Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page. Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.

Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, "Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?" They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.

The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.

Immortal1 said:

“

”

There is a chicken and egg factor to theC. I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested. Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia. There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.

Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will all have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point for bumping up.

Immortal1 said:

“

”

There's absolutely no identity crisis. If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.

Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?

Immortal1 said:

“

”

You can do this in 3-5 pages. I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list. Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series. One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.

As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.

If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, and we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.

However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.

The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an "Other series within the Coalition universe" section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.

Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean "so notable it needs multiple pages". All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page." - so even if somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?

I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a "whole", and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I do not think we are talking about 200 pages. We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition. Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit. For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now. The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia. The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--modelmotion 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Immo said "The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos." - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.

As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.

modelmotion said:

“

”

The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic. If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets. We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.

I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: What historicaly record? Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically nothing. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only 16 are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are Everything You Need To Play Facility J, last updated on 30 October 2007, Mysterious Young Lady, WalterDW and TravelerJ19, all of whose content was last updated 11 months ago (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).

Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. That is the "historical record" we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few "almost" there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for almost a year is the greatest argument for collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.

modelmotion said:

“

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The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard. We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia. If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.

Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're actually talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of "modelmotion no like teh revamp", please open a "Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp" section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we will not be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We will not have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - Shiori 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - Shiori 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by discussion and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you admittedly ignored, that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our opinion and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's "THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!" posts and not helping this discussion.

Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: Been said. Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.

Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Let's start the fuckin' revamp already! This is insane. --Milowent 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Milo...click here, try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now. Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages. Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages so it would essentially become a portal for the "coalition territory". This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery. It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--modelmotion 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your "reasonable approach" - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it "revamp" because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these "historic records" you keep talking about - the only thing "historic" about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.

As for "putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery" - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.

Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're actually interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.

Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said "fuck it" and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.

You want us to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history. Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--modelmotion 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your "history" shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.

I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - Shiori 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Let us face reality here. Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site. It is going to take time to rebuild. That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--modelmotion 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:

If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?
The portal quite clearly says "The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series" - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. Virginian9000 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)

That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.

Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like Cassieresurrection all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.

I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to The Coalition, the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.

It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.

The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - Virginian9000 22:24 March 21 (EST)

As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia. In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem. Perhaps we could consider it as "Tier 5 Lite" where fans of the series would have an "option" to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration. I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level. Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series. Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the "ability" to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--modelmotion 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said "I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level." I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when some people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - Shiori 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole. From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4. I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.) If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.

From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness. So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of "the Coaltion," and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series. One word, "Wha?") Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow four basic pages -- one for each series. This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and the info that they are related to the other three series under a greater "Coalition" universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the "Red Territory" as well). It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering have said multiple times that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point. If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).

If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over. If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I also see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to "the Coalition" as a whole. For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.

Oh, side note: I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier. If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that all TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense. But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors). Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to another lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).

Well, those are my thoughts on the matter. I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away. --Pheon 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant. It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the "homepage." Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia? It has been a very difficult year for "community videos" but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn. I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages. Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together. The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion. Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe. The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--modelmotion 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine. I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--modelmotion 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.

Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).

virginian: "I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far." - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would still be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 "real" views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.

Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?

model: "Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia." - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.

Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:

Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.

Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify why that should be the case with hard facts.

Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post. There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months. Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the "community videos" fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--modelmotion 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.

As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.

I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--Virginian9000 22:25, 22 March (EST)

Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.

"The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole." - thus, by your very own definition, the 4 subparts of The Coalition are not independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore not eligible for independent listings as series.

The description you give is valid for any vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.

(And before you contest with "multiple characters" - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)

Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)

@model:

up there said:

“

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The Coalition

They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

It is not a like to tell the truth. All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened. If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so. Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--modelmotion 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how you ask for "something productive", but meh, whatever.

Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier 4. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.

So, should virginian not insist to object, and should third parties not override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --User:FH14 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)

I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate. --Milowent 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes. Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence. I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic. Only then can we have a viable discussion. --modelmotion 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't "get it". Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.

Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.

Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?

If the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:

They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.
The viewers and producers just don't care for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are? If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question. The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on. No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure. That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning . The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--modelmotion 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.

It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about no one else coming, either. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the official blog of LG15 and LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, still no one else edited it. It very much looks like nobody cares.
We will not "simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on", because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?
It is absolutely and 100% insane to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state "we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!", please do so - it'd help me a lot.)

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--modelmotion 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on. Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site. It is clear from their video series. And they even have community video spin offs from within their series. I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5. So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck. So Tier 5 it is.--modelmotion 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

If it is "clear" from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?

Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?

I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is not independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.

So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing you posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that your personal opinion is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.

It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was your decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous "Are you blind?" posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.

iow, the discussion would be over.

If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual "you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind" tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely not "obvious", and you don't have any facts to support your opinion.

To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.

The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is.

It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. Virginian9000 21:51, 23 March (EST)

Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak. I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions. I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--modelmotion 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the "right" one. You just keep insisting it's "obvious", that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.

We got your opinion. Now bring facts.

As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, and had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.

Now add one and one together.

@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.

So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.

And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...

The Coalition, with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series
The Coalition characters, again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.
The Coalition videos, listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).
The Coalition interaction - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--modelmotion 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is not going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--Jonpro 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my "Tier 5 Lite" suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--modelmotion 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --Pheon 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.

I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.

I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.

I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments I made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.

It's not gonna work.

Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am not the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.

Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is "obvious" and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.

This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.

With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.

Everybody is happy. Except for you.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Actually to the contrary. As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is "Tier 5 lite" just like I suggested.--modelmotion 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

If this is the "Tier 5 lite" you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as "project leader" here. I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground. You just fail to read what is written.--modelmotion 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing "[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution." from "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested." and "Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening." from "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page."

The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted "Tier 5 lite", with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a "Tier 3 Deluxe", where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.

And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:

Ren, your persistent insults --> unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.

are just incompatible with your role as --> unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.

"project leader" here. --> attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.

I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground. --> non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."; your new statement does not contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, different fact: That your idea of "Tier 5 lite" admittedly was not equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just "a lot of common ground". It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of "common ground", but as per your own statement, right there, it was not "just like [you] suggested".

Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in "Tier 5 lite" was long gone anyway:

Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.
The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.
It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.

Tier 4 is not equal to "Tier 5 lite". Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.

The truth is, the "magic moment" was one day before you suggested "Tier 5 lite" - when Immo's suggestion of "You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]" was answered, quite clearly, by me with "As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance."

As of that point, four days ago, it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.

I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done nothing to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.

You and you alone are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a "fine solution", FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we did have a factual discussion, I did accept the facts and Immo did convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his "Tier 5! Tier 5!" cries with condescendence and insults is you.

You are the one who dragged out this discussion, and you are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

What was your point?--modelmotion 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment ~ ------ (talk | contribs) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]

Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy? It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.-------- 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]

[Head explodes] ~ ------ (talk | [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry] contribs) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

I like applesauce.-------- 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]

If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself. Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--Milowent 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

Agreed. Also, seeing as this discussion is quite lengthy, it might be a good idea if it was moved to the archive --FH14 12:07 24 March 2008 (EST)

Exactly that, model.

Milo, I liked your previous posts, but this one went way, way too far. Do not pose as another user again. Period. It may be obvious to you, but it's not to everyone else. Even I went "wtf?! I didn't post that!!". It is important that users can trust a comment belongs to the person it was signed as, and a tiny little 4:36 is not hint enough, especially given that no one usually reads the timestamp.

Don't do that again. Ever.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

Milo, I gotta side with Renegade on this one. I thought it was funny on Talk:437, but that discussion wasn't as heated as this one and you made it much more obvious there. Also, here you impersonated people currently taking part in the discussion, which would only have the effect of confusing those trying to follow it. I apologize for encouraging you on the 437 talk page as impersonating other people (in any form) really is unacceptable. I let it slide because I thought it was funny, but now it's clear that it has the potential to cause major problems, so please, and this applies to everyone, never impersonate anyone else anywhere on the pedia. Anyone who does this will be warned and if they continue they may have their account blocked. Again, I apologize for encouraging it, but Ren is absolutely right, so let's just not do it.--Jonpro 15:03, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

OK, I agree I crossed the line that time. I am sorry and promise not to do that again. The debate had gotten so far out of hand that I was driven temporarily insane. There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on, not that my attempt at humor helped at all. --Milowent 21:35, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

I got the PM I was waiting for, but it was not as clear as I hoped. Please stand by while this is sorted out.

~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 18:41, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

Difference between revisions of "LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp"

Latest revision as of 06:50, 6 August 2008

Contents

Glossary

Criteria

List of fan series currently archived on the pedia

Suggested Tiers

Mission

Schedule

Page-list

Flock Regulations

Discussion

The Coalition

See also

Navigation menu

Views

Personal tools

current show

lg15 universe

Navigation

Community

Search

Tools

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+ {{delete|As this project has been all but abandoned for months, I suggest the same standard and logic that was utilized and discussed in it with regards to fanfiction be applied to it and that it be removed from the LGPedia. See Discussion}}
+:'''''Phase 2 of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is currently in progress. Please do <u>not</u> initiate any further discussion - any late concerns with the current Tier listing can be addressed in later requests for re-evaluation.''' Click [[#Schedule|here]] for further information on the process.''
+Note: Several resolved and abandoned discussions have been [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives|archived]] in order to keep the page tidy.
 ==Glossary==
 {|width="50%"
@@ Line 33: / Line 40: @@
 ==List of fan series currently archived on the pedia==
-If somebody feels like making an actual list, be my guest. In the meantime, there's an older list [[LG15 Spin-offs|here]], and the general [[:Category:Fan fiction|fanfic category]].
+*[[The 707 clique]]
+*[[Aaronbeast]]
+*[[Acrowleyorder]]
+*[[ApotheosisAZ]]
+*[[Breeiswaiting]]
+*[[Brucker]]
+*[[Bubbleteagirl]]
+*[[Cassie UGC]]
+**[[Cassieiswatching]]
+**[[itscassie]]
+**[[breeiswaiting]]
+**[[cassieresurrection]]
+**[[frankiswaking]]
+**[[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]]
+*[[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]]
+*[[Deemontreal]]
+*[[Dreams from the Breeniverse]]
+*[[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]]
+*[[The Flock]]
+*[[Fourthface]]
+*[[GuillotineCalamity]]
+*[[HOOBS]]
+*[[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]]
+*[[Immant]]
+*[[Iris2009]]
+*[[Iris network|The Iris Network]]
+*[[Itscassie]]
+*[[Kelseygirl15]]
+*[[TheLadyLazarus]]
+*[[Lonelydude15]]
+*[[lonelygirl362436]]
+*[[LonelyJew15]]
+*[[LonesomeOctober]]
+*[[LordGreystoke422]]
+*[[Maccaboy17]]
+*[[Maddison Atkins]]
+*[[Marbella]]
+*[[Masonishappy]]
+*[[MessyNessy89]]
+*[[Mission Anchor Cove]]
+*[[MsBlackBetty]]
+*[[N3ural N3t]]
+*[[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]
+*[[OpAphid]]
+*[[OpScorn]]
+*[[Paulmark18]]
+*[[ProjectStatic]]
+*[[Redearth88]]
+*[[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]]
+*[[Sarahsnotebook]]
+*[[StormFaction]]
+*[[Scdgoofy]]
+*[[Tannhaus]]
+*[[UtNbErS tutlaEN]]
+*[[Xeniph]]
-* [[LonesomeOctober]] -- Right now, I would say this needs to be a Tier 4 -- ten videos, and they have a notoreity in the Breeniverse (perhaps because of the "WANKER?!!!" arc). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 27 January 2008 (CST)
+==Suggested Tiers==
+:''Please see [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List]]. Do not edit that page, though.''
-* [[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]] should either be in Tier 1 or on the Tier JonPro was suggesting (see below) - I'm guessing they're fanfic, but then again, I've never heard of them, and yet they all have wonderful pages devoted to them (there all actually  a dead-end pages (they don't link to anything else on the Pedia and redirects its list of videos to YouTube) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:19, 27 January 2008 (CST)
+==Mission==
+We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
+:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)
-==Agreed listings==
+==Schedule==
-===Tier 1===
+Almost exactly three months after this project has come to life, there now seems to be a large consent on the initial Tier listing; while there are still minor details to wait for until we can finalize the Tier 3/4 listing, Tiers 1 and 2 are finalized, and, as such, the Phases only related to these Tiers can begin.
-*[[fourthface]] - doesn't seem very popular; not very many views.
-===Tier 2===
+'''As of Tuesday, April 1st, 2008, 03:26 GMT, Phase {{color|red|2}} of the LGPedia UGC/Fanfic Revamp is running.''' See below for details.
-<!-- *[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]]. -->
-<!-- *[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page. -->
-*[[Bubbleteagirl]] - a lot of videos, a few of which have 10,000+ views, but no connection to [[the Creators]].
-<!-- *[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1? -->
-*[[Frankiswaking]] - some notability, 250+ subscribers; should probably be combined with [[Frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] (even though they're different, they're still related); maybe should be Tier 3?
-===Tier 3===
+*The Revamp will proceed as follows
-<!-- *[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]]. -->
+**{{color|green|'''Phase 1:''' Make a link-list of all Tier 1 fanfic, something along the lines of "List of additional user-generated content"; tag all Tier 1 and related pages for deletion.}}
+**{{color|red|'''Phase 2:''' Find and tag Tier 2-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Write up basic pages for each series.}}
+**'''Phase 3:''' Find and tag Tier 3-related pages such as lists of videos, categories, templates video pages and so on. Collapse information into the series pages where possible, write up extended pages for each series.
+**'''Phase 4:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 4 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed, and which aren't. Tag/expand as necessary.
+**'''Phase 5:''' Identify the current set of pages Tier 5 pages have, and check with the page-list which ones are needed. Expand as necessary.
+**'''Phase 6:''' Find and correct references to UGC content.
+**'''Phase 7:''' Declare Revamp over.
+**'''Phase 8:''' Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic, keep fanfic-list up to date, control [[#Flock Regulations|Flock Regulations]].
-===Tier 4===
+===Page-list===
-*[[lonelygirl362436]] -- as said above, though only three-episode series, the Creators played a part in it, Daniel had a role, and it was viral marketing for ''Epic Movie''
+*Central portal
-<!-- *[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid.  And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15. -->
+*List of videos
+*Templates:
+**Bottom index
+**Customized sidebar template (For less than ten episodes, use [[Template:FakeBlog]] directly. Otherwise, create a pass-through template for FakeBlog. No non-canon series gets its own, independent sidebar.)
+*Character pages
+*Actor pages
+*Categories to group it all together
-===Tier 5===
+==Flock Regulations==
-*[[Redearth88]], [[OpAphid]], & [[Maddison Atkins]] -- Not only do their stories merge into a larger story, but one of Redearth' puppetmasters is Glenn Rubenstein (who was creator of OpAphid), ans he was for some time involved with the Creators when OpAphid was the official ARG of the LG15 series.
+The basic point of these regulations is, independent from any criterion spelled out in writing below, that The Flock's pages must look neither dead, unmaintained nor messy. The reason The Flock was granted Tier 4 status was because Immo vouched to make sure his pages would be maintained either by himself or his fans. Should it, at any point, be apparent that this is not the case, Tier 4 status will be revoked, and The Flock will be collapsed into a Tier 3 page.<br>
+Reasons for revocation can be:
+*Episode pages are not added within three days after an episode's release, or are still "barebones", lacking parts of sidebar information.
+*Transcripts have not been added within one week of the episode's release.
+*The portal's list of videos has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
+*New main characters are not added to the portal within three days.
+*New main characters do not have a character page within four days.
+*The "Plot background" or similar sections on character pages stay outdated for more than two weeks.
+*The "Last Appearance" link has not been updated within two days after an episode's release.
+*The portal is kept "untidy", having dead links, superfluous content (like the current character placeholders), or generally lacking organization.
+*Clean-up tags are not resolved within five days.
-==Mission==
+''NOTE: An extension will be granted for characters who have suddenly become canon. Obviously updating under these circumstances will take longer than normal.''
-We need your comments. Look at the series we already have, look at the series that exist that we don't have yet, and rate them using the criteria above. Try to determine whether a series is notable enough to be listed, and, if yes, which tier it belongs to. Remember to post your reasoning ;)
-:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (CST)
-==Free for all comment space==
+Reasons can and ''will'' be collapsed - if it takes four days to get a character page up, you do ''not'' have an additional two days to update "Last Appearance". These two days ended two days after the video was released. Likewise, while the regulations allow for a dead character link from day three to day four, keep in mind dead links on the portal count towards the untidyness-factor. Continuously having dead links for several days on the portal, even if they are resolved within four days, will be seen as a sign you or your fans are incapable of handling the workload of maintaining the portal, and thus the section as a whole.
-Add your comments and opinions below this line.
-===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
+==Discussion==
-*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
+====The Coalition====
-::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
+They were just featured on insidelg15today.  That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability.  Is a Tier bump warranted?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
-*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
+:I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
-::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
-*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
-::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
-*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid.  And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
-::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
-*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
-::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
-The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them.<br>
-Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
-:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
-::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment.  But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point.  I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp.  A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
-:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them.  Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
-:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
-::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)
-::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
+:No, in my opinion, for the following reasons:
-:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
+:#HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
-:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]
+:#Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
+:#And this is the most important one, in my opinion: ''Everyone'' can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.
+:Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page ''we'' will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.
+:(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)
+:(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)
+::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
+::Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)
+::On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on [[The Coalition]] page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
-===Other Series===
+:::So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.
-Back to the discussion...
+:::God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>
-*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
+::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
-*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here?
-Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
-:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
-:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
-::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
-::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of Possible New Girls]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)
-===Historical Notability===
+::::I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition.  But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
-What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]])  I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed.  --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.
-:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
-===Bias===
+:What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements?  Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
+::I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure.  You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence.  How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::Anyone?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.
+:::I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::There are 4 series so they each should have a page.  The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series.  As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory.  The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
-Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here.  I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty.  1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.
+::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
+::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
+::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
+:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
-How's this for Tier 5 criteria?  It has to have it's own forum section.  If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::"The important and sole decisive criterion is notability."  Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them.  I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.
-:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
+:::::::# The Coalition is set up similar to RE88.  RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in.  The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in.
-:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::# The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.
-::I'm having a hard time following your logic.  At least back up your argument with reasons.  If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it?  You'd need character pages and transcripts.  Here's why I think the whole process is backwards.  How can you rate a independent above a derivative?  Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section?  Not to mention, RE has it's own site.  MA has it's own site.  theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.)  Point is there are other places to go to learn about them.  Derivatives exist at lg15.com only.  I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention.  With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits.  The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::# They have a forum presence.
-:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal.  Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge.  Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::# FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.
-::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
+:::::::# They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation)  It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.
-:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
+:::::::# It features immersive interaction with members of the community.
-:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::# There are a high number of characters including live action characters.
-:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::# Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.
-::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
-:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
-::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option.  My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here.  Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)
-====Reply to all====
+:::::::It meets just about every criteria set forth.  My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump?  But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page.  If you can, more power to you.  I look forward to the end result.
-I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites.  Let's start from the top:
-*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
-: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
-[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
-*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
-:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot.  Videos per character is irrelevant.  If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same.  So?  And please touch plot development.  PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
-::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] |
-[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development!  Are you kidding me with that?!  And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific.  Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers.  It's pretty black and white.  I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
-:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins.  OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content.  As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia.  These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed.  The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated.  So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
-:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
-:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge.  The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated.  I forgot about that.  +1 for impact.  +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable?  The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
-:-Cheap shot.  Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
-::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
-::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
-::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have!  I just want to be left alone, really.  We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series.  That's why they need transcripts.  Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder?  I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
-:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television.  Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15.  Is that notable enough for you?  Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::I didn't now RE was fanfic.  Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
-:-The Flock is a derivative.  It would make no sense to make home anywhere else.  Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
-::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default."  Are you serious?!  Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times."<br>I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
-:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
-:::Is English your first language?  Don't put words in my mouth.  The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
-:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not.  I do not.  They have rejected the term.  I'm not trying to punish anyone.  I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
-:::Actually that's never ocurred to me.  Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
-:::Wow man.  Where have I backstabbed?  What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you.  I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself..  I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)
-::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
-::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
-:::Again where do you get this stuff?  I just don't want my pages scaled back.  I need them more for new viewers not existing ones.  The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
-'''Non-immo notes following:'''
+:::::::: Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured.  I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure.  There are always elements that are "up in the air" but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
-*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
-*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.
-To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed.<br>
+:::::::Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?
-Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
+:::::::Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages ''because'' The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.
-:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months?  The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left?  See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and "hits" on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, ''The Flock'' all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth ''nothing'' if no one comes to eat.
-::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
+:::::::You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, ''nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia''. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?
-:::I'd be surprised if they did.  How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board?  Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.
-::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
+:::::::The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock ''alone'' has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, ''nobody cares''.
+:::::::Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it ''would'' place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there ''is'' a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages ''at all''. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?
+----
+:::::::In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of "identity crisis" problem - are these series all together one complex "The Coalition", or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will-O-Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate "List of Facility J links" or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.
-Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times.<br>
+:::::::So, especially ''because'' your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:
-''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000?<br>
+:::::::#Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.
-Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
+:::::::#Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?
-:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::#Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)
-<small>P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P</small><br>
+:::::::#Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we ''will'' need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.
-<small>P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.</small>
-:-We can't go by views either.  We all know views can be fudged.  We don't want to go there do we?  Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing.  Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
-::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
-:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant.  And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
-==Additonal Criteria==
+:::::::Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of "Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention." does not need 200 pages.
-I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria.  This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful.  Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about.  If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with.  It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter.  It's a factor but others should be considered.
+:::::::Just one.
+:::::::If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.
+::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::<small>Not proofread.</small>
-) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it.  Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.
+:::::::::<li>At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility.  Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page.  Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.
+:::::::::<li>There is a chicken and egg factor to theC.  I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested.  Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia.  There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.
+:::::::::<li>There's absolutely no identity crisis.  If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.
+:::::::::<li>You can do this in 3-5 pages.  I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point.  You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list.  Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series.  One column for characters and one for a video list.
+:::::::::<li>I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
-) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
+::::::::::It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.
---[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility.  Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page.  Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.}}
+::::::::::Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, "Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?" They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.
+::::::::::The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.
-==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
+::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There is a chicken and egg factor to theC.  I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested.  Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia.  There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.}}
-I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them.  So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages?  I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::::::Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will ''all'' have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point ''for'' bumping up.
-==Suggested Tiers==
+::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There's absolutely no identity crisis.  If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.}}
-Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).
+::::::::::Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?
-'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|You can do this in 3-5 pages.  I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point.  You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list.  Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series.  One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.}}
-{|
+::::::::::As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...''however'' - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, ''and'' there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.
-|-
+::::::::::If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, ''and'' we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.
-|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] <small>(should be listed, but not as a spin-off)</small>, [[Will-O-Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]]
+::::::::::However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.
-|-
+::::::::::The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an "Other series within the Coalition universe" section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.
-|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
-|-
+::::::::::Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean "so notable it needs multiple pages". All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page." - so even ''if'' somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?
-|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
+::::::::::I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a "whole", and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.
-|-
+:::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
-|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
-|-
+:::::::::::I do not think we are talking about 200 pages.  We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition.  Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit.  For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now.  The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic.  If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets.  We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.  The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard.  We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia.  If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
-|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
-|}
+::::::::::::Immo said "The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos." - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.
-Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::::::::As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.
-:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will-O-Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
-::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic.  If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets.  We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.}}
+::::::::::::I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: ''What historicaly record?'' Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically ''nothing''. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only ''16'' are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are [[Everything You Need To Play Facility J]], last updated on 30 October 2007, [[Mysterious Young Lady]], [[WalterDW]] and [[TravelerJ19]], all of whose ''content'' was last updated '''''11 months ago''''' (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).
+::::::::::::Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. ''That'' is the "historical record" we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few "almost" there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for ''almost a year'' is the greatest argument ''for'' collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.
+::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard.  We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia.  If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.}}
+::::::::::::Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're ''actually'' talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of "modelmotion no like teh revamp", please open a "Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp" section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.
+:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+:(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we ''will not'' be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We '''will not''' have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+::(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+::Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by ''discussion'' and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you ''admittedly ignored'', that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our ''opinion'' and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's "THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!" posts and not helping this discussion.
+----
+::Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: ''Been said.'' Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.
+::Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.
+:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::: Let's start the fuckin' revamp already!  This is insane. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::Milo...[[User talk:Zoey|click here]], try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.
+::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now.  Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages.  Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages  so it would essentially become a portal for the "coalition territory".  This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery.  It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your "reasonable approach" - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it "revamp" because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these "historic records" you keep talking about - the only thing "historic" about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.
+:::::::::As for "putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery" - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.
+:::::::::Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're ''actually'' interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.
+:::::::::Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said "fuck it" and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.
+:::::::::You want ''us'' to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, ''why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?''
+::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::::::::::To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history.  Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::::::::::To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your "history" shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.
+::::::::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::::::::::<small>Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.</small>
+:::::::::I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::Let us face reality here.  Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site.  It is going to take time to rebuild.  That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+----
+I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:
+#If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?
+#The portal quite clearly says "The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series" - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.
+:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+:I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)
+::That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.
+::Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like [[Cassieresurrection]] all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.
+::I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to ''The Coalition'', the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will-O-Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.
+:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.
+::::It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.
+::::The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:24 March 21 (EST)
+:::::As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia.  In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem.  Perhaps we could consider it as "Tier 5 Lite" where fans of the series would have an "option" to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration.  I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.  Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series.  Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the "ability" to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said "'''I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.'''" I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when ''some'' people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole.  From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4.  I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: ''Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some '''subjective''' or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)''  If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.
+:::::::From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness.  So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of "the Coaltion," and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series.  One word, ''"Wha?"'')  Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow '''four''' basic pages -- one for each series.  This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and '''the info that they are related to the other three series''' under a greater "Coalition" universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the "Red Territory" as well).  It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering ''have said multiple times'' that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point.  If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).
+:::::::If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over.  If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I ''also'' see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to "the Coalition" as a whole.  For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.
+:::::::'''Oh, side note:''' I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier.  If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that ''all'' TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense.  But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors).  Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to ''another'' lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).
+::::::::Well, those are my thoughts on the matter.  I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away.  --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant.  It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the "homepage."  Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages.  Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia?  It has been a very difficult year for "community videos" but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn.  I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages.  Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together.  The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion.  Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe.  The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+:Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine.  I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.
+:Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).
+:'''virginian:''' "I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far." - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would ''still'' be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 "real" views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.
+:Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?
+:'''model:''' "Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia." - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.
+:Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:
+:[[Image:Coalition system.png|800px|none|thumb|Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.]]
+:Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify ''why'' that should be the case with hard facts.
+:Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.
+::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post.  There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months.  Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the "community videos" fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.
+::::As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.
+::::I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:25, 22 March (EST)
+:::::Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.
+:::::"The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole." - thus, ''by your very own definition'', the 4 subparts of The Coalition are ''not'' independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore ''not'' eligible for independent listings as series.
+:::::The description you give is valid for ''any'' vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.
+:::::(And before you contest with "multiple characters" - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)
+:::::Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)
+:::::@model:  {{quote|up there|The Coalition<br><br>They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)}}
+:::::Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.
+::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::It is not a like to tell the truth.  All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened.  If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so.  Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how ''you'' ask for "something productive", but meh, whatever.
+:::::::::Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier ''4''. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.
+:::::::::So, should virginian ''not'' insist to object, and should third parties ''not'' override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.
+::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --[[User:FH14]] 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)
+::I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate.  --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes.  Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence.  I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic.  Only then can we have a viable discussion. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't "get it". Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.
+::::::Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.
+::::::Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?
+::::::''If'' the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:
+::::::#They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.
+::::::#The viewers and producers ''just don't care'' for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.
+:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::::It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are?  If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question.  The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.  No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure.  That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning .  The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::::You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.
+:::::::::::#It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about ''no one else coming, either''. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the ''official blog'' of LG15 ''and'' LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, ''still'' no one else edited it. It very much looks like ''nobody cares''.
+:::::::::::#We will not "simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on", because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?
+:::::::::::#It is absolutely and 100% ''insane'' to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state "we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!", please do so - it'd help me a lot.)
+::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::It is really quite simple.  The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.
+::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on.  Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site.  It is clear from their video series.  And they even have community video spin offs from within their series.  I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5.  So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long.  If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck.  So Tier 5 it is.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::If it is "clear" from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?
+:::::::Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?
+:::::::I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is ''not'' independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.
-:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
+:::::::So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing ''you'' posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that ''your personal opinion'' is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.
-:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...
+:::::::It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was ''your'' decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous "Are you blind?" posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.
+:::::::iow, the discussion would be over.
+:::::::If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual "you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind" tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely ''not'' "obvious", and you don't have ''any'' facts to support your opinion.
+----
+:::::::To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.
+:::::::The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?
+::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The  storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is.
+:::::::::It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 21:51, 23 March (EST)
+::::::::::Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak.  I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions.  I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
-:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
+:::::::::::Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the "right" one. You just keep insisting it's "obvious", that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.
-::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::::::We got your opinion. Now bring ''facts''.
+:::::::::::As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, ''and'' had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.
+:::::::::::Now add one and one together.
-::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::::::@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.
+:::::::::::So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.
+:::::::::::And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...
+:::::::::::* '''The Coalition''', with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series
+:::::::::::* '''The Coalition characters''', again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.
+:::::::::::* '''The Coalition videos''', listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).
+:::::::::::* '''The Coalition interaction''' - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.
+::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::::::Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is ''not'' going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+::Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my "Tier 5 Lite" suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::::::::Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
-::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)
+:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.
+:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.
+:::I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.
+:::I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments ''I'' made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.
+:::It's not gonna work.
+:::Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am ''not'' the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.
+:::Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is "obvious" and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.
+:::This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.
+:::With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.
+:::''Everybody is happy. Except for you.''
+::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::Actually to the contrary.  As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is "Tier 5 lite" just like I suggested.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
-::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence.  The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well.  I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible.  So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::If this is the "Tier 5 lite" you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.
-:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
+:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
-::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15.  Which is it?  Is being on the forum criteria or not?  It can't work for RE and not theC.  And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+::Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as "project leader" here.  I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.  You just fail to read what is written.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
-:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)
-:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
+:::To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing ''"[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution."'' from ''"It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."'' and ''"Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening."'' from ''"Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page."''
-:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
+:::The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted "Tier 5 lite", with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a "Tier 3 Deluxe", where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.
-::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:
-:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin.  It's the common characters I'm having a problem with.  When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin.  That's my point.  (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+::::''Ren, your persistent insults'' --> unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.
+::::''are just incompatible with your role as'' --> unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.
+::::''"project leader" here.'' --> attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.
+::::''I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.'' --> non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."; your new statement does ''not'' contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, ''different'' fact: That your idea of "Tier 5 lite" admittedly was ''not'' equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just "a lot of common ground". It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of "common ground", but as per your own statement, right there, it was ''not'' "just like [you] suggested".
-:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15.  So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence.  (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in "Tier 5 lite" was long gone anyway:
+:::*''Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.''
+:::*''The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.''
+:::*''It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.''
-:The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will-o-Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
+:::Tier 4 is ''not'' equal to "Tier 5 lite". Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.
-::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
+:::The truth is, the "magic moment" was one day ''before'' you suggested "Tier 5 lite" - when Immo's suggestion of ''"You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]"'' was answered, quite clearly, by me with ''"As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance."''
-::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
+:::As of that point, ''four days ago'', it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.
+:::I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done ''nothing'' to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.
+:::''You'' and ''you alone'' are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a "fine solution", FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we ''did'' have a factual discussion, I ''did'' accept the facts and Immo ''did'' convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his "Tier 5! Tier 5!" cries with condescendence and insults is ''you''.
+:::''You'' are the one who dragged out this discussion, and ''you'' are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.
+::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::What was your point?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
+:::::::See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment  ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
+::::::::Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy?  It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.--[[User:------|------]] 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)  [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
+:::::::::[Head explodes] ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry] [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::::I like applesauce.--[[User:------|------]] 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
+:::::::::::If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself.  Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
+::::::::::::Agreed. Also, seeing as this discussion is quite lengthy, it might be a good idea if it was moved to the archive --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:07 24 March 2008 (EST)
+:::::::Exactly that, model.
+::::::::::::Milo, I liked your previous posts, but this one went way, way too far. Do ''not'' pose as another user again. Period. It may be obvious to you, but it's not to everyone else. Even ''I'' went "wtf?! I didn't post that!!". It is important that users can trust a comment belongs to the person it was signed as, and a tiny little 4:36 is not hint enough, especially given that no one usually reads the timestamp.
+::::::::::::Don't do that again. Ever.
+:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
-Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:::::::::::::Milo, I gotta side with Renegade on this one. I thought it was funny on [[Talk:437]], but that discussion wasn't as heated as this one and you made it much more obvious there. Also, here you impersonated people currently taking part in the discussion, which would only have the effect of confusing those trying to follow it. I apologize for encouraging you on the 437 talk page as impersonating other people (in any form) really is unacceptable. I let it slide because I thought it was funny, but now it's clear that it has the potential to cause major problems, so please, and this applies to everyone, '''never impersonate anyone else anywhere on the pedia'''. Anyone who does this will be warned and if they continue they may have their account blocked. Again, I apologize for encouraging it, but Ren is absolutely right, so let's just not do it.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 15:03, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
-:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+::::::::::::::OK, I agree I crossed the line that time.  I am sorry and promise not to do that again.    The debate had gotten so far out of hand that I was driven temporarily insane.  There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on, not that my attempt at humor helped at all. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 21:35, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
-:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
+----
-:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
+I got the PM I was waiting for, but it was not as clear as I hoped. Please stand by while this is sorted out.
-::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
+:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:41, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
-I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series.  I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too.  Keep up the good work LGPedia!  Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty.  She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months.  --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)
+==See also==
+*Related discussions:
+**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#Redearth88|Redearth88 portal]]
+**[[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony#New Series Template and General guidelines for All|General page layout for UGC]]
-'''Not Tier 2'''
+{{UGCpages}}
-|These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
-|The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
-|Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
-|LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
-|(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)