Difference between revisions of "LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony"

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[[Image:GustaveCailbotteThe Balcony1880-Cropped.jpg|left|thumb|150px|A couple of [[LGPedia]] admins ([[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] & [[User:Psmith|Psmith]]) take a breather to admire the view from [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]
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:'''''If you cannot access this page for whatever reason, please use [[LGPedia:Emma's Hideout]]'''''
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[[Image:GustaveCailbotteThe Balcony1880-Cropped.jpg|left|thumb|150px|A couple of [[LGPedia]] admins ([[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] & [[User:Phoenician|Phoenician]]) take a breather to admire the view from [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]
  
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[[Image:Lucy's_Balcony.jpg|right|thumb|150px|In happier days, friendly [[LGPedia]] admins, [[User:Brucker|Brucker]] (now retired), [[User:OwenIsCool|OwenIsCool]], and [[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] (also retired) enjoyed unseasonably warm afternoons on [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]
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[[Image:snowwhitebalcony.jpg|right|thumb|150px|[[User:Zoey|Zoey]], one of your [[LGPedia]] admins, frolics with the doves on [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]
  
  
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Welcome to '''Lucy's Balcony''', a place to ask questions or discuss general issues about the [[LGPedia]].  This page is intended to be a place where admins and active editors can discuss ongoing issues, ideas and concerns.  To start a new thread, [http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=LGPedia:Lucy%27s_Balcony&action=edit&section=new click here].  Please remember to sign your posts by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> at the end.
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Welcome to '''Lucy's Balcony''', a place to ask questions or discuss general issues about the [[LGPedia]].  This page is intended to be a place where admins and active editors can discuss ongoing issues, ideas and concerns.  To start a new thread, [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=LGPedia:Lucy%27s_Balcony&action=edit&section=new click here].  Please remember to sign your posts by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> at the end.
  
 
For old or inactive conversations, visit [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/archive|Lucy's archive]].
 
For old or inactive conversations, visit [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/archive|Lucy's archive]].
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[[Image:snowwhitebalcony.jpg|right|thumb|150px|[[User:Zoey|Zoey]], one of your [[LGPedia]] admins, frolics with the doves on [[Lucy's Balcony]].]]
 
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== Unused images ==
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==Character Pages Discussion==
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''Okay, so there's been some talk as to the condition of the character pages we have here on the Pedia.  Just bring everyone up to speed, here's what's been said so far:''
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In cleaning up location pages I've orphaned a rather large number of images.  The location pages had an unfortunate tendency to just include random screen-shots from videos that had absolutely nothing to do with the location.  I've been cutting them out.  Do we want to have an unused image assessment of some sort?  Use the good ones, and just delete the lousy ones?  We really don't need to keep hundreds of unused images laying around. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 11:06, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
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:Well I think that you should delete the unused images, that don't look like they can be useful, to add to later articles or updates. Several times I went to an image category to find an image for an article. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 17:40, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
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== General deletion/inclusion guidelines ==
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As a result of the discussion on [[Template talk:HoverTOC]] and also somewhat on [[LGPedia:Tasks/Completed#LordGreystoke422's videos]], I think it's high time we figured out exactly what our deletion and inclusion policy is here. Currently our [[LGPedia:Deletion Policy|deletion policy]] is rather minimal and very much open to interpretation. There was a discussion about this on [[LGPedia talk:Deletion Policy]] quite a while back, and most of that is probably still applicable, but I have a feeling people will have some new ideas as well. I think the best way to handle the inclusion aspect of this would be to create a list of criteria that are necessary in order for an article to be included here. What we don't want to do is turn into Wikipedia here, but having some generals guidelines wouldn't be a bad idea. Another issue is deletion, which I suppose is very related to inclusion. I guess we could also have a list of reasons for why an article should be deleted, and maybe another list for reasons that ''aren't'' enough for an article to be deleted. Really, this is very open-ended, but I would ''love'' if people would get involved in the discussion here. To put in my two cents, I think a good first point for inclusion would be that it is related to Lonelygirl15 in some way. How closely related it would have to be is a point of discussion I guess, but that's a start at least.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 17:39, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
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:Okay, for me, I think that with fan videos, you should kind of look at what the purpose of the videos is, how they tell their stories, and what kind of stories are being told.  Like I think videos that seem to be "going somewhere"... like distinctive stories with distinctive arcs may be better with just large summary pages that people can read.  It makes it much easier to follow those kinds of stories when things are all laid out in one place.  Like, LG422... and GC and such.  Those are the kinds of stories I mean.  However, with things like say... aaronbeast, where they're kind of... response videos.. or videos that don't really follow a specific story but kind of adapt based on what's going on in the [[Breeniverse]], those should get their own video pages.  That's how ''I'' would view it... although I'm not entirely sure that made sense... hopefully it did. :P  I'd love people's thoughts please!! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 18:31, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
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:I've gotta say, while I did negatively notice this before, when I was looking through the templates to catalogue them, I was once more reminded how many fan-created series have pages here.
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:That is not bad per se, but, without going to sound arrogant or anything...many of them are just not noteworthy.
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:Example - chosen randomly, not a personal attack: [[Linsy]]. We have a page on her, three video pages with transcripts, and even [[:Category:Linsybeast's blogs]]. And you know what? I have no idea who the fuck that is.
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:Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against fanfic, fan participation, or anything. But I think we should set a certain standard of "noteworthyness" before listing people here, at least on more than one general site. Stuff like HSAO gained a lot of user traction, and Dr. Immant's videos apparently were quite well done and well-received by fans (never seen them) - but we don't have to have entire catalogues of every video every LG15 fan once did, just because they pretend to be in the Breeniverse.
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:Another thing is useless occupation of space; example: There is a hardcoded sidebar-template for "GuillotineCalamity", which means that sidebar is fixed for that video series and cannot be used by anyone else. What's it used for? Two pages that contain barely more than "Transcript incomplete". Check out Category:GuillotineCalamity - the five season subcategories are all empty, and GC Seasons does nothing more than link to these empty categories. Apparently, at least according to the main page on that topic, there actually were quite a lot of these videos. Where are they? Why do we need five categories and a sidebar, if all we have on that series other than the main page are two video pages with no information?
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:Like I said, don't get me wrong - I have nothing against fan fiction. But what we're currently doing is like accepting every little essay a grade schooler once wrote into the Great Library of Alexandria. We are flooded with pages that, quite frankly, don't interest anyone but the authors...and maybe two or three other people.
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:I don't know exactly ''how'' to solve this problem, maybe by requiring a certain amount of hits on a single page, before branching out is allowed or something, but I think the overall quality of this encyclopedia suffers from this. While fan fiction most definitely is an important part of LG15, this is the official encyclopedia on the official site, sometimes visited by The Creators themselves through their Admin account - I think it should focus on important and official stuff first, and ''then'' on fan faction and trivia. Right now, we have some important core pages, like List of Videos, the video pages themselves, List of Characters and the character pages, and a whole lot of crap that is fun to have, but takes focus away from the efficient administration and care for the important pages. Do we really need a page on [[H.P. Lovecraft]]? As far as I'm concerned he has had ''no'' major influence on the canon. He has enjoyed, ''perhaps'' some passing references, but ''that's nothing special''. Hundreds of videos everyday do that. But they link to Wikipedia instead of writing their own page about him. [[Dava Sobel]]. wtf do we need that for? It's a one line note, ''and'' it's been said on the video page for [[Proving Longitude Wrong]]. There is no reason to have that page.
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:Okay, I think you got my point here - it's late, so I'll move on.
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:Deletions. Yeeees. Zoey has ignored me for the past few days, so I guess it's evident I have quite some strong feelings on this topic. Most of them I have already posted, so let me just sum things up quickly:
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:I have nothing against deletions as such. In fact, I myself have given good reason for the deletion of both Template:PageHeader and [[Template:Clr]], after this whole orgy was over - see the respective talk pages. What I was, and still am, annoyed by is the notion that a template should be deleted just because it's currently unused. A template is a convenience thing. A tool. Do you throw away your hammer just because you don't use it at a given point in time, and then get it back out when you actually use it? I think not.
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:If a template is useless and will most likely ''never'' be used, fine - kill it. But if it's a useful little thing, why delete it, just because ''right now'' nobody is using it?
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:The discussion also revealed a kind of weird view of deletion around here - apparently, it means nothing. The stance here seems to be to delete something if it's currently unwanted, and to restore it if it's wanted again. And that just takes the use and meaning out of it. A deletion should be a strong statement that the page is not wanted anymore. Instead, it's being used for a crude form of giving the appearance of order - similar to a child that gets the order to clean his room, only to shovel all his toys under his bed. Sure, it looks clean, but as soon as he'll need the toys, he'll get them back out.
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:I am not against restoring, I said that. But it should be a tool rectify a mistake - not an action as common as opening a page.
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:In fact, this stance is probably connected to what I mentioned above - ''we have too much crap lying around here''. If pages were reduced to essentials and semi-essentials, it'd be a much harder decision to delete anything, simply because it'd have a major impact on the information presented. Instead, an admin can delete half the pages here without fear to destroy anything important - 90% of all users would still find exactly what they want.
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:It's two o' clock in the morning, so I'll stop here. I know I didn't present any solutions, but maybe it's better to hear your reactions first anyway. Don't be shy, and don't be afraid to use whatever language you might find necessary. Just remember that we're talking about administrative issues here, not friendship or community. This is not, at least from my point of view, about whether or not somebody's feelings might get hurt if his pages are deleted (be it "my" templates, [[Linsy]]'s blogs, or carefully crafted pages over totally insignifcant details), but about how to get a certain sense of order in this thing, and setting a certain standard of quality.
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:You cannot accept everything if you want the average to be good. The question is just if you have the balls to turn people down if it's necessary.
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::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:09, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
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:<small>*looks up* ...oops. [[Template:Quote]], if anyone is crazy enough to reply.
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:BAH, Zoey, out of my line of post! '''[Editing conflict resolved]'''</small>
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::@Zoey: Hmm, that's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure it would really work. I don't think it would be too fair to say that a certain series shouldn't have video pages just because it has the "story" format that you're talking about. Similarly, there's no reason that a rather minor fanfic video should get its own video page just because it doesn't have that story format. I think the criteria should be something like popularity, connection to LG15, probability of canonicity, etc.
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::@Renegade: I think you raise some good issues. Firstly, I agree with you about the problem with notability of videos. I think when the whole [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girl]] thing was going on, every possible "new girl" was given a page, and all of their videos started to be transcribed. This has created a lot of probably-less-than-notable fan blog pages that people may not be that interested in. I think a good solution might be to figure out which ones are actually notable (perhaps page-view count as you suggest or maybe something else), and then determine if we need the transcript pages or just one page for the character that could give a summary of their blogs and general information on them. That way, the notability or important of a fan series is reflected here by how much space, time, effort, etc. we put into it. Again, it might be hard to determine the "notability" factor, but I'm sure we could come up with some method to do so.
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::As far as the waste of space, the reason that happens (at least from my point of view) is that we hate to undo someone's work because we either 1) don't want to hurt their feelings (a lame reason really) or 2) think they might come back to it at some point in the future. It's a little similar to the templates you created, Renegade. We see that someone has created something which looks like it could be useful, but isn't really being used yet. We're skeptical about deleting it, and yet it seems like it would help clean up if we do. I think just better communication all around would help solve this problem. We shouldn't be afraid to ask people why they created a certain page, template, category, etc. as long as it's done in a considerate way. If there is a genuine good use for what they have done, then they can explain it. If it was done on a whim or we decide it's not necessary or there's a better way to organize the information, then it can be deleted or reorganized.
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::And really, I agree with you about the deleting/restoring thing. What I was trying to say before is that ''if'' a page gets deleted because no one sees a good use for it, then we can ''fix'' the mistake of deleting it by restoring it. I was trying to point that that deletion isn't that big of a deal because it can be undone. Of course, if we think we're going to be restoring something later, then of course we shouldn't delete it. I hope this makes sense, and I'll try to explain better if it doesn't.
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::One final word. You're right that we're not talking about friendship or community here, and I agree that people should be free to express their opinions openly. Sometimes, though, this can turn into a war between people rather than between those people's ideas. I encourage everyone to not take anything personally here. As I'm so fond of saying, we're all working toward the same goal, so please remember that and never assume that someone is attacking you personally. Any and all personal attacks here will '''not''' be tolerated, so let's try to not make that an issue. That said, let's continue to have a helpful discussion that will make this place better for everyone.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 12:22, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
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Okay I just wanted to say, my idea was for how to handle videos once they're already gotten the stamp of approval to be on the page, based on whatever criteria we set.  Because like Renegade said, the GC videos and the CIW vidoes all have video pages, but really arent used.  So um, if based on our criteria to get something on the site in the first place, they're still good, I think we should look at the things I mentioned before, and perhaps decide that they don't need video pages, only summary pages (like LG422 videos as well).  As far as WHAT those criteria are, I don't really know...
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And Renegade, I haven't been ignoring you.  I've been reading everything you say very closely.  The strength of my opinions on these topics, however, doesn't even come close to yours, so it is difficult for me to give you worthy responses.  But I am reading what you are saying and just... trying to take a step back and examine all viewpoints before I give any input on what I think should be done for what things.  --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:46, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
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Pinging Zoey with 478 bytes of data:
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Reply from Zoey: bytes=1006 time=563040000ms TTL=255
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:hehehe :D
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:Nah, seriously...thanks for replying at all. Although I now feel like a fundamentalist radical on the topic of deletions, it at least gives me the hope I didn't piss you off for good. I do see some irony in the fact that Template:PageHeader still exists, though, given that even I am for its deletion now. :D
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:Aaaand that brings us back on topic (ain't I good?): It's dead. Nobody wants to talk, but us. So I propose we do the stuff suggested below, to make people aware of what we're discussing above. Sound like a plan? Good. I'll try to code/design something and ... '''Update:''' I did code something, behold it on [[LGPedia:Participate]]. But now my favorite admistress (or one the other demi-gods) would have to go to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] and add <nowiki>{{LGPedia:Participate}}</nowiki>, as I lack the power to do that. Make sure to add it outside of a block of text though (first thing on the page at best) as everything else fucks it up. Took me three revisions to figure out the template was fine, and the the positioning was to blame. -_- And adjust the top-margin when it's added, I had to guess for now.
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::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:35, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
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:: It's looking really good.  I think [[:Category:Featured article nominees|featured articles]] and [[:Category:Proposed Merges|proposed merges]] should also be added... and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking of ATM.  I'm assuming it doesn't update automatically though?  So people will have to really be on top of it.  Oh, and also, I think the text under Participate should be bigger... for those of us who are blind *cough*.  I'll see about adding it to recent changes, but I generally fail at that kind of stuff anyways, so it might be better to wait for another admin to come along and make it look nice...
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::And um, yeah, I'm going to go delete PageHeader now :D --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:12, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
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:The fact that "Renegade" does not know "who the fuck" [[Linsy]] is, is pretty unimpressive criteria for deleting anything a fan has taken the trouble to add to LGPedia.  I think the opinion as expressed here is incredibly arrogant and hostile to community (comments such as "grade school", "crap", "having balls" etc. do not inspire confidence).  My personal opinion is that unless you are running into some hard technical issue such as exceeding storage space (which is usually absurd these days, but possible), there is very little justification to delete contributions made by occasional posters or those outside the core LGPedia group.  That is the opposite of what you should be doing.  Add structure?  Absolutely.  Move really random/disconnected items off to an orphanage for lost pages (or equivalent) sure.  But don't delete, and leave a link (comprehensive note on a talk page or comment in history or *some* obvious path to finding the moved article without having to contact a staff member - I'm not sure what the best solution there is).
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:There are growing and independent circles of fans, who are every bit as invested and involved in their segments of the Lonelygirl15 community as the few LGPedia mainstays, and the vitality of this effort depends on the confidence that time invested in posting here will not be discarded by someone with a different idea of what is important.  That kind of editing would be disrespectful and foolish.  My contributions here have been minor, and may not even fit in with your concepts (I don't know), but if I put something here and linked to it from off site, and came back later to check for updates, etc. and found my work silently deleted, I would be angry.  That kind of move should be made with the utmost care and respect.
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:So address the issues, but find a better solution than deleting even relatively trivial contributions from fans.  You never know when they will come back to expand on or edit their work, possibly becoming more significant contributors later.  You folks have a great thing going here - there is no need to alienate the occasional contributors.  First contributions take the most effort sometimes, and should not be undervalued.
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:Maybe a better editorial concept is to think of a core set of pages (a trunk and main branches) that are tightly controlled, surrounded by a cloud of satellite pages (twigs and leaves) that are a bit wild and unruly, with a few orphans that fall to the ground, but are still down there somewhere. ~ [[User:QtheC|QtheC]] 08:15, 24 June 2007 (CDT)
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::So wait, let me get this straight...you wait for eight days, to attack a sentence in a post that's almost three weeks old, over a fact that was clearly introduced with "chosen randomly, not a personal attack"?
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::Riiiiiight. Were you bored, or just in an aggressive mood?
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::Everybody else got fine that it was an example to illustrate the issues with noteworthyness we have here, and the fact that you can only fight it by dragging it down to a personal level and attacking my credibility just proves to me that I raised an undisputable point; you may not like it, but fact is: In all probability, said "Linsy" adds nothing to the Breeniverse.
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::Yes, it is nice to have devoted fans, and yes, the fan interaction in and with this series is great - but that does not automatically mean that the official encyclopedia has to include every single video by every user that slightly, remotely connects to the topic. I have nothing against including notable fans on LGPedia. If a video series gained a big viewership, like the several Cassies or HSAO, or some of the OpAphid analyzation vids, fine, include them - they ''are'' important to the community around the series, and, as such, important to the series.
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::But, no matter how arrogant you'd like to interpret this, ''reality'' is: The latest vid of that "Linsy" person has 71 views. It has a page with nothing but a sidebar, and it's a shaky video of her or her character's birthday "partay". Okay. Typical YouTube content. Fine to be online. But why the hell does it have to be on LGPedia? Is it of great importance to the canon? Nope, she's not canon. Is it of great importance to the fandom? Nope, it's had 70 views before I just clicked. Is it an exceptionally well-crafted page? Nope, it's one line with a sidebar.
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::She may be a nice person, and her videos might even be funny - but, as of this moment, there is nothing exceptionally significant or notable about them that'd require us to list it here. And the positive effect of having ''everything'' listed gets outweighted by the negative effect of having ''almost everything'' look like crap.
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::Even if you wish to list each and every tiny little fanvid, what's the use of listing them if their page says nothing? Let's say we let that page stay as it is. What is the great advantage gained by users through this? Is it that, of nineteen videos existing, only four are listed? Or that, of these four, one fourth doesn't have a transcript? Or that they can read a transcript at all?
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::Who is, realistically, going to read a transcript of some girl's fanfic blog?
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::You can call me arrogant all you want, whoever lives in reality sees I'm not trying to belittle that girl, but to be realistic. It is great she's active in the community, and it takes a great deal of courage to tape a video and put it out there for everyone to see. But the fact that she's a fan with a video alone doesn't make her or her video significant enough to be put up on the official site next to the information on official videos.
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::We should focus on information important to the Breeniverse and the fandom. And some girl's birthday party, as nice as she may be, just has nothing to do with. The maximum effect that page will have on unintroduced users will be that they wonder how she is tied into the series, and get all confused.
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::'''Added to reply to addition''':
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::That may be a nice idea, but the problem is, would care for the twigs and orphans. We'd have hundreds of unmaintained pages laying around, building a "cloud of crap", so to speak, around the important entries. If someone maintained these pages, it'd be a different issue...but people won't. You can hope and dream all you want, a "lowly" fanfic-video-page just isn't gonna get the same editorial attention as an official video page.
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:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 09:12, 24 June 2007 (CDT) '''[Editing conflict resolved]'''
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::<small>And for the record, thanks to the new sidebar on recent changes, silent deletions are almost impossible now - unless someone disregards all procedures.</small>
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::: This was the most idiotic dispute in the history of the Wiki.  Just saying! --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 15:09, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
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== "Have your say" page ==
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:Zoey, I've been pondering this for some time and thought I may as well ask you about it. Why is it that we do an entire "story so far" on every main character page? Wouldn't it be easier to just highlight the big stuff under "background" and pay more attention to keeping up the [[The Story So Far...]]. I mean, it just seems like our character pages are going to be so huge that no one will read the entire thing when we could be using the really good parts of each character background to make a really awesome page for our story so far, plus it would be less work for each character page and more people would actually edit our story so far page instead of it being left for months without any work done to it.  I hope that all makes sense as now I'm looking at it and seems quite long, anyway, it's not that big of deal, just thought I'd throw that out there. [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 19:20, 19 February 2008 (CST)
  
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I just had a read of the problems mentioned above (deletions etc.) and thought of an idea that might be of help to both this and other problems that arise from "normal users" scanning the last 50 recent changes to see what has been happening (thereby missing out when there have been lots more changes since they last logged in). I would propose having a LGPedia:Have your say page listed on the right hand column, perhaps under the "Recent changes". This page would then have links to all current discussions and votes that users may be unaware are going on at all, e.g. pic/caption votes, redesign comments, delete-tagged pages. This may help getting more people involved in decisions than at present (because they wouldn't necessarily be logging in as frequently as an admin, nor would they be visiting the various log pages that we know about). In addition, the delete period between tagging and deleting should be increased to 2 weeks (except where an admin is just rectifying a mistake).
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::I think you have a completely valid point. I've actually been pondering implimenting something to that effect for a long time. The only thing is, I couldn't figure out how to do up the characters' pages so that this would work. Do you have any ideas... maybe a mockup of a page idea so I (and others) can kind of get a better idea of what exactly you have in mind? I'd love to see it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 14:55, 10 March 2008 (CDT)
  
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This may not completely avoid the situation with deleted templates mentioned above, but if in addition we admins think twice in future before nominating something unused for deletion than that's probably all else we can do.  
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:OK, this is proving harder than I had thought it would be. It's difficult to decide what to do with it. Maybe we should start a discussion or something to get other people's input because I really do think it would be better to have the character pages be shorter, but I don't know where to start! By the way I'm not going to be able to do quite as much editing as I have been because people at work are getting suspicious. :( [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 19:07, 10 March 2008 (CDT)
  
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Having said that, as both [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] and [[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] have respectively pointed out, it is neither a big deal leaving pages that are unused alone until they become useful again, nor accepting that some pages which are deleted through lack of feedback can be restored afterwards. Let us not get heated about this either way. [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 15:27, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
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So yeah -- thoughts, people? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 11:38, 11 March 2008 (CDT)
  
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:I like that idea very much, Psmith. Renegade proposed something similar on [[Template talk:HoverTOC]], but I think this would work better. I think people see that column a lot and "Have your say" if a very self-explanatory phrase that should hopefully draw people in to have their say about things. We would have to make sure to keep this page updated or it wouldn't work, but if we can do that, then I think it should work great. As far as extending the deletion period from 1 week to 2, it really doesn't make a difference to me. If people think this would help solve problems with deletions, then I'm all for it. I'd love to hear others' opinions on both of these issues, so please feel free to pipe in with your support or objections.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 12:22, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
+
Well, first I think we should get rid of any sections that are covered in other places (ie: Daniels relationship section and Jonas's fan activity section) and just put links to them at the bottom with the theory links. EDIT: I have made a fake Daniel page [[User:Nancypants/sandbox|here]] so if anyone has ideas please feel free to mess around and change things, it's just my sandbox. [[User:Nancypants|Nancypants]] 20:36, 13 March 2008 (CDT)
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::[[Special:Recentchanges|BEHOLD]] what Zoey and I crafted together!
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−
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:07, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
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−
::::Wow! [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 12:45, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
+
  
−
== Addition of KateModern to LGPedia ==
+
:Now that I've had time to look over the proposed page, I must say, I like it! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:54, 12 April 2008 (CDT)
  
−
Hi everyone. [[Miles Beckett|Miles]] has requested via email that we make some changes to LGPedia to prepare for [[KateModern]]'s premiere later this month. The details are included in his email which I have included here:
+
::I rather like the page too! I think it needs to be fleshed out in some parts (don't ask me where! if I could put my finger on it, I'd totally tell you! lol)... I just feel like it's a bit bare... but really... it's SO on the right track! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 11:03, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
  
−
{{quote|Miles|
+
:NOTE: Since Nancy seems to have taken a hike, I'm considering taking this up again. I think we're in desperate need for this kind of thing on some pages, especially as characters span series. If anyone has anything further to suggest on this, please do. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:14, 16 March 2009 (CDT)
−
As you know, KateModern is launching soon and I'd like to give you some information so you can revise the LGPedia accordingly. In our minds, the framework is as follows:
+
  
−
#LG15 is the Universe that includes lonelygirl15 and KateModern and future shows (The LGPedia should track the entire LG15 Universe)
+
== Admin ==
−
#lonelygirl15 is the US show with the characters we all know and love
+
−
#KateModern is the UK show with a new cast and plot
+
  
−
We are redesigning the website to make the interface cleaner and also to display both shows.  We're going to provide a link on the lonelygirl15 show page that goes to a lonelygirl15 "portal" in the LGPedia that would look similar to the current homepage of LGPedia. Similarly, we'll provide a link on the KateModern show page that goes to a KateModern "portal in the LGPedia that would look similar to the current homepage but would be all KateModern specific stuff. LGPedia would therefore need a new homepage that would provide links to these sub-page portals for each show, and a lot of the information that is already on the homepage since alot of this is more about the LG15 Universe.
+
This probably isn't a good move, but I'd like to request a consideration of me being moved to admin. There are SO many changes that I'd like to see made to this wiki but I personally can't do anything as a regular editor. You can review my edits, etc. Just please think about it and get back to me here, anyone who could make that change. (Also, I was formerly [[User:SilverBULLETx3|SilverBULLETx3]] as well.) [[User:Kevin|Kevin]] 09:54, 16 January 2009 (CST)
  
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Does that makes sense?  I wanted to give you a heads up since KateModern launches in mid-July and we'd love if LGPedia was up to date by then.  Let me know if you have any questions.
+
== "Current shows, former shows" ==
  
−
Thanks!
+
Over on the sidebar, it has "Current shows: LG15: The Resistance", and "Former shows: lonelygirl15, KateModern." This obviously does not apply anymore. What it should say is:
  
−
Miles}}
+
*Upcoming Shows
 +
**[[LG15: The Last]]
 +
**[[Harper's Globe]]
  
−
My own thoughts on the issue are to not do anything too drastic until we reach a decision about what should be done and it all seems feasible. It looks like we'll need to create [[Portal:Lonelygirl15]] and [[Portal:KateModern]] (or names similar to these) as well as resurrect [[Main Page/redesign]]. I think a good goal would be to try to get this all done within about a week or so that it will be ready for the launch of KateModern. If anyone has any questions for Miles, feel free to post them here or on [[User talk:Jonpro|my talk page]] and I can send them on to him.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 14:54, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*Current Shows
 +
**[[N1ckola]]
  
−
:Hm, wow, this is definately a massive project.  Maybe it would be best to have a ''really'' basic homepage that says something like "Chose Your Destination" with links to both of the girls and that be it?  Or something very similarly simple.  Maybe we can just keep the LG frontpage the same and make a copycat for KM with the links and stuff she needs.  I'm kind of confused about how to determine what would be used for both though.  I mean, it's not going to take place in [[Bree's bedroom]] or anything, is it?  Where do we draw the line for what is LG15 and what is LG15 Universe?  Hm, also I guess we could make like.. top categories to help make things easier to classify?  Like a Category:KateModern, Category:Lonelygirl15, and a Category:Breeniverse (that contains stuff for both worlds?).  I don't know, like I said, I'm having a hard time comprehending just how much of an overlap there will be, so its kind of hard to figure where to draw the line, but those were my intial thoughts at the idea.  Let me know what you think...! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:03, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*Former Shows
 +
**[[lonelygirl15]]
 +
**[[KateModern]]
 +
**[[LG15: The Resistance]]
  
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:::::Zoey I totally agree - I think we should have a splash page, if you will, for the 'pedias.  On the front page can be something simple, Kate -enter- and LG -enter- or however you want to present them. This page can be the "fancy" page, if we want, and it can look really good, and different from the 'pedia now if we're looking for something fresh.  But the pedia works REALLY well set up as it is.  I don't think changing it is a good idea.  Not overall.  As for the sharing sections, I think that we should just stick to having articles that are accessible to both pedias through common links.  Don't get into three different pedias.  Asking for trouble, that.  Just stick to two pedias outlining two storylines, and the common lines between them will take care of themselves. [[User:MarlaSinger|MarlaSinger]] 17:42, 6 July 2007 (EST)
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K, thanks! [[User:Kevin|Kevin]] 15:28, 12 February 2009 (CST)
  
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::I was wondering the same thing about the amount of overlap. If there really isn't going to be any interaction between the series, it makes sense to basically have two sections to the site, kind of like you're saying. I went ahead and sent Miles an email asking him how much overlap there will be, so I'll be sure to let you guys know what he says when I get a response.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 18:46, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
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Actually, it should be:
  
−
:::Okay, I got an email back from Miles and here it is (I think it's easier to just copy/paste than try to explain it in my own words):
+
*Current Shows
 +
**[[N1ckola]]
  
−
:::{{quote|Miles|The characters "can" communicate with each other but it remains to be seen how much they will.  Things like the Order, the Hymn of One, and all of that larger mythology will be in both series to varying degrees.  Think of it like, the Order, HOO, the stuff about the blood, the girls, the Elders, etc. etc. are all the same across both shows.  But, the characters and plot are different.  Happy to answer any other questions.  Thanks!}}
+
*On Hiatus
 +
**[[LG15: The Resistance]]
  
−
:::So I don't think we should try to "split up" LGPedia into two sections or anything, but I think we should definitely do something with the categories like Zoey suggested. Maybe we can go through and add "Category:Lonelygirl15" to at least some (maybe all?) of the pages here, and then start adding "Category:KateModern" to the pages that we create for the KM characters, locations, videos, etc. Other than that, it'd probably be a good idea to focus our energy on the "portal" pages and the Main Page. I think we have a lot of options for the Main Page, and it'd be nice to see something more than just a link to the two "portal" pages. A few ideas I can think of are:
+
*Upcoming Shows
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:::#Split the Main Page right down the middle with LG15 stuff on one side and KM stuff on the other side.
+
**[[LG15: The Last]]
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:::#Keep the page looking a lot like we have it but add links to KM things as they happen. In other words, update the video list with videos from both series, add links to KM pages to the links list on the left, etc.
+
**[[Harper's Globe]]
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:::#Remove all "series-specific" information from the Main Page and put it in the lonelygirl15 portal page. The Main Page would then be about the LG15 universe in general so LG and KM followers could both find only useful information.
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:::Now, for all of these, there would still exist the "portal" pages to get more detailed pages about the specific series. I really don't know what's best, and I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts about these ideas and/or other ideas for what to do here. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:00, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
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:I don't like the "splitting" simply becuase that'd be a little confusing, IMO.  Again, I'm relatively new to wiki-editing, so if what I'm saying doesn't make sense, forgive me.  But since it appears that the two shows will interact in ''some'' way, it seems reasonable for now if we simply keep the main page "as is" for the most part but under the "Breenverse" section we simply create two sections: "Lonelygirl15" & "KateModern." (everything currently under there would fit nicely into "Lonelygirl15").  With that huge list redesigned into a list of two, we'd have room to add any KM characters under the current LG15 characters (possibly with a different color to their names, i.e. not blue).  Behind the Scenes, Site Features, and Unofficial Spinoffs would remain the same, I imagine. What'd be really cool if we could have the "LG15" in the corner to change to KM whenever you landed on a KM page (again, not sure if that's even doable, but I think itd be cool). Those are my thoughts for now . . . hope what I said didn't sound crazy. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 09:30, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
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::Hmm... I was reading through this and I got an idea about splitting up the homepage but keeping all the stuff currently on it. Here's my idea: Move the "latest developments to the left side in between the ENCYCLOPEDIA (which we could change to read "LONELYGIRL15") and the Featured Article. Then, on the right create a "clone" of the left dealing with Kate Modern... I dunno. What do you guys think? -- [[User:FH14|FH14]] 00:20 6 July 2007 (EST)
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::: I love this big picture, how do we organize everything sort of stuff.  Almost makes me wish I were still around more, but I've been having so much fun at the {{Wikipedia|User:JayHenry|mothership}} that I rarely make it back here (and if any of you are ever looking to get more involved at the mothership, let me know, I'd love to help you find a niche!)  So, as I understand it, KateModern will exist entirely within the same [[Breeniverse|universe]] but, just like real teenagers in L.A. and London, they will have little interaction, their lives will not affect each other much -- just like if a guy named Wixy gets some girl pregnant in London; Jay's life in, uh..., Miami, will be unaffected.  Similarly, Wixy's bedroom ''exists'' in my universe, but it has no relevance to me whatsoever.
+
*Former Shows
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::: I think ideally you'd have Kate and LG15 latest video sections both on the main page somehow.  For an idea like the portals, it might be best to have a Latest LG15 updates and a template:Latest KM updates and have both templates be transcluded on the Main Page and then one each on [[Portal:Lonelygirl15]] and [[Portal:KateModern]] respectively.  That'd reduce the amount of redundant work, but I'll admit, I don't have a good idea for how to design the main page with two latest video sections.
+
**[[lonelygirl15]]
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::: Just some suggestions as I won't be around to implement any of it. I hope KateModern is a success, it'd be nice to have my interest restored, especially now that {{Wikipedia|Prom_Queen_(internet_series)|Prom Queen}} is over. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 00:09, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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**[[KateModern]]
−
::::Ugh, all you admins are abandoning me!  I feel so alooonee </emo>.  Haha well, either way it's nice to hear from you Jay... hopefully you'll be around a bit more... maybe?  Your ideas sound good.. I'm just so confused about how to impliment them.  I guess I'm still trying to wrap my head fully around what we're trying to do, so it's hard to figure out the best way to do it.  It sounds like you've got some good ideas though (< To Everyone) and I'm anxious to see what kinds of things people come up with.  As for right now, I think I'll just keep reading everyone's ideas until something sparks me.. or someone else, you know, figures it all out.  I also made a post on the LGBlogspot directing people to this page, so who knows, we may get some new, fresh contributions soon! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 00:37, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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  --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:45, 12 February 2009 (EST)
  
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:::::I like Jay's idea about using the templates. I will ''try'' to get that done later today if no one else gets it done first, but no promises. I'll also try to get some sample portal pages up today or tomorrow so that we have something to start with and maybe then it will be easier to work from there. As an aside, I really do feel bad about not being here as much, Zoey, but the demands of life are simply making it difficult. I think you're doing a great job considering we all did pretty much abandon you. Oh, by the way, has anyone heard from OiC recently?--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 07:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
+
==New Layouts (sort of)==
 +
I'm creating this section to discuss all of the layouts on the Pedia, minus the Portals and main pages. Most layouts need some SERIOUS updating; they look like a rainbow threw up on them, and don't match anything. [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:03, 16 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
===Character pages===
 +
I designed a [[User:Shiori/Sandbox|new layout]] for the character pages. The only main differences are the edited Characterbox template to match the portal pages better (and unify font sizes and colors), and the abolition of those ''stupid'' stars on the page's subheaders. I'm open to suggestions, although I am rather fond of the way I set up the Characterbox template. [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:03, 16 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
:I like them a lot. Though the images for the Supporting Characters seem really small to me... --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 14:42 16 March 2009
 +
::I enlarged the images a bit; I can't make them ''too'' much bigger, since the main characters are supposed to have larger images, but it does look slightly better now. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:45, 16 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
:::Looks good to me. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 14:50, 16 March 2009 (EST)
  
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::::::Lol yeah, I know. Stupid "real life" taking all the fellow admins away from me!  Hrmph!  OIC was in the IRC chat the other night, she said she'd be on again soon.. but I haven't seen her since! And thanks! :) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 19:21, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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Now that we can do stuff logged in again, I'm going to wait for some more comments on this. If I don't hear any major complaints, and can't find any pages that would be severely harmed by the newly updated version of the template, I'll put it up some time next week. [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:51, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
  
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:I think we should wait and see how KateModern is received before doing much - if it flops in the first week, there's no use redesigning half the encyclopedia.
+
===List of Video pages===
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:After all, LG15 was kind of new back in the day - by now, KateModern is just another internet series.
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I honestly don't really enjoy the LoV pages on the Pedia, maybe we could do it sort of how it is over at the Harper's Globe wiki, but with a template? <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 19:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
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:(And given how the Creators failed to vary the plot arcs within ''one'' series already, I can very well see how people might recognize this as "Lonelygirl15 UK" and get bored because it's the same thing with different characters.)
+
  
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:So, as said, I advocate waiting.
+
== Creating Attention-grabbers page ==
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:But if you ''don't'' want to wait, I suggest replacing the "Encyclopedia" box on the main page with one LG15-specific and one KM-specific block, while updating the video-list with vids of both series.
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:Splitting the page in half by series would look terrible.
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−
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 09:09, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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:Lets see, they are in the same universe, lets see, fan fic is gonna blur the line faster then u can say wiki --[[User:Brooklynxman|Bxman]] 11:36, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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Per the original discussion [[Talk:Use of sex in lonelygirl15#The Future of This Page|here]], Zoey acknowledged the fact that the Use of Sex page is rather long and unnecessary. In response, I half-heartedly suggested that the best way to alter the page would be to create a page listing ALL of the attention-grabbers the Cs have ever used in the various series.
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::True. The acrowleyorder series has already made references to KateModern, and I'm sure about 50 will follow. Maybe it would be best to divide into three sections instead of Two (One being fanfiction) --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 13:23 6 July 2007 (EST)
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The more I'm thinking about it, the more I think this was a good idea. Basically, I'm thinking of combining these pages into one: [[Use of sex in lonelygirl15]], [[The thumbnail trick]], [[Gunplay]], [[Four-letter words]], and a reference to [[Strange tags]]. (Jonas in a Bathtub should probably get added in to the sex information, too.)
 +
Some other pages could be added into this page, but I figured I'd open it up to everyone before I do anything. [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:33, 16 March 2009 (CDT)
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:I like the idea. Go for it and I'll help in whatever ways I'm needed. <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 20:17, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
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::All done. I created the page [[Attention-grabbers used in LG15]], made it more general, and replaced all of the existing links to the pages I merged into it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 19:44, 2 April 2009 (CDT)
  
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Simple solution:
+
== Final Community Content Suggestion ==
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1) on the left you have character pixs: the new page would have character pixs for both shows
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2) below that you have Breeniverse which would stay the same but....
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3) each of the items such as Characters would have an LG page and a Kate page (eg characters -lg15 and characters kate, locations-lg15, locations-kate etc (those can grow organically as needed as did the original pedia)
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4) then on the right under latest developments videos for both series would be posted as they occur
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−
--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 12:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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:One thing I just realized: We can't include the KateModern Videos on the same list as the LG15 videos because of the way the number formatting works. KateModern Episode #1 would show up as LG15 Episode #230 or something. I like the merging of the "latest updates" but we should have separate video lists to avoid this problem (ex: two links at the bottom of the latest updates: List of all LG15 videos... and List of all KM videos... --[[User:FH14|FH14]]
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With the death of the ''previous two'' discussions on this subject, I bet everyone thought it would be left at that. However, I think we can all agree with Zoey's original opinion that something needs to be done to clean up existing content to get it to Pedia standards, as well as giving new series a guiding hand in how to cover their stuff on here.
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::Well, they say that the KM vids will be appearing on the LG15 homepage (after appearing on Bebo).  If they happen to end up in the same official videolist, then I guess that won't be a problem, FH14.  But if they end up elsewhere? Oy.  Is there a chance to simply keep the LG video count going, but have the KM videos under KM1, KM2, etc?  Again, not sure if that's even wiki-possible, but that's my spiel. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:16, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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::I did some concepting, please state your opinion on [http://img461.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mainpageredesignok8.png this], everybody.
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So, I came up with some general guidelines, which are only slightly different than we had before, and yet vastly superior in ease of use and understanding.
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:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:32, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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:::I like it. although the Taylor overlap may be a problem. maybe if the info/video boxes were a bit wider? That would also allow more room if there are more than three main characters in KateModern. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:10 6 July 2007 (EST)
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::::That layout is 850px wide. We need around 155px for the menu, which brings us to 1005px. That's the very, very maximum for a 1024x768px resolution. So I fear wider is not an option.
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::::In a worst case scenario, we'll have to split and wrap the the image rows in the middle of the layout.
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:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:16, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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:::::Are you sure? The current homepage looks wider than the design to me. Of course, when it comes to pixels I'm clueless, so I may be wrong [[User:FH14|FH14]] 16:23 6 July 2007 (EST)
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:::Renegade, can you do a design where the Encyclopedia box is split in half horizontally and the rest of the page looking relatively the same? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 15:45, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
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Ok I know i haven't been around very much lately, but I'm still as opinionated as ever. I think Miles has totally the wrong idea how to structure the website.  I think the loneleygirl15,  should remain the site for the story about Bree , Katemodern should have It's own domain name. what we are currently calling the Breeniverse needs to have a name that isn't Breecentric, but encompasses KateModern the Order the HymnOfone etc. for the sake of clarity for the moment I'll call it the Dendraverse, though it probnably won't be called that.  so this is how I would structure it Dendarverse.com will have have all the meta info about the Dandraverse and be a portal to lonleygirl15.com katemodern.co.uk (or whatever it's called), Hymnofone.org, and any other website within the Dendraverse.  it will also have contain the dendraforums which will contain the currentl lonleygirl15 forums, the KateModern, forums. the Dendraverse Fanfic forums, etc. and it will also contain.  it will also contain the Dendrapedia. The dendrapedia use the current Wkik, but will have a new main page which acts as a portal into will have a new main page which is a portal into LGpedia, KMPedia, FanficPedia, etc, the current main page will be moved to a new article called LGpedia, and function much the same way as the Aphidpedia page currently does.  Similarly we will have an article called KMPedia that looks much the same but used a perhaps a Red color scheme.  Except for the Home page all the domain names will operate synonymously using the same Forum and WiKi directories.  I hope I explained myself clearly, the idea is pretty straightforward but I'm not sure I communicated it well. I do think this is the most logical way to go. --[[User:Misty|misty]] 02:15, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
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===Community Video Series===
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:I'm sorry, Misty, but I disagree. I think that if there were two separate websites - lonelygirl15.com and katemodern.com - it would ruin the show. Some (but only a few) fans don't even know about KateModern yet, and if they had to go to katemodern.com to view it, then they would not know! And they would be missing out on a whole "sequel"-ish spin-off to lonelygirl15. And what you said about the Breeniverse not being so Bree-esque, I can understand that. However, I think Miles gave us basically a solution to that problem. Instead of the Breeniverse, we call it the LG15 Universe. Then again, that's still lonelygirl15-esque, but you get the point. We could do the Orderverse, the Hymn of One Universe... I don't know. It's the only way that seems possible to me. Making another whole website, katemodern.com, just seems to complicated to me. Plus making a whole wiki, KMPedia... it would seem so small compared to the LGPedia. My suggestion is that the '''Main Page would be very simple. The centered words "Choose Your Destination" with two arrows pointing to a picture of Bree, with the words "lonelygirl15" under it, and a picture of Kate, with the words "KateModern" under it.''' Then, the picture of Bree would redirect to our current Main Page. The picture of Kate would redirect to a KateModern-esque Main Page. Sure, we'd have to change a few things, like maybe the name of Lucy's Balcony, or the link to the List of Videos on the side. We could have a link to the List of LG15 Videos, and a link to the List of KM Videos. It just seems like lonelygirl15.com is where lonelygirl15 was born, and it should be where KateModern was born. Miles even said that they were in the process of redesigning lonelygirl15.com so that you can view both shows on it. I say we keep the name LGPedia, unless something major comes up, like a complete separation of lonelygirl15 from KateModern. [[User:72.77.92.54|72.77.92.54]] 09:40, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
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All series will be permitted one page. In order to have a page on the Pedia, the following information should be available: start date, URL where the series can be watched (only necessary for still-available series), and a short summary. These elements may be expanded upon, but generally these would be wanted for a page.
 +
'''''A one-liner page will be subject to deletion if it offers no good information about the series and cannot be expanded.'''''
  
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::Obviousley you didn't understand what I was saying because you are suggesting the same structure. you are just saying that it shoulod all be under the name all under the LG15 name, and that's the point I was objecting to. If you read what i said I wasn't suggesting creating other websites or a new WKI. I was sugessting Creating New domain names. a website can have 1000 domain names if you want. and KMPedia isn't a separate wiki is just a separate article. what I'm saying is that CONCEPTUALLY KM doesn't belong Under LG15, but KM and LG15 belong side by side Under the umbrella of a greater Universe. I called it the the Dendraverse in my example, but could have a different name. but it shouldn't be called the the LG15 universe, because LG15 is Bree eventually Bree will be gone, and if you try to separate LG15 from Bree then it has no meaning. so calling it the LG15 universe makes as much sense as calling it the CMJ24 universe. techincally what i propsed just means moving a few pages and creating a few links. -03:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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The series can have one of THREE classifications:
 +
*'''Basic coverage''' - the default for all series. Series with this coverage are not allowed to have secondary pages for characters information, videos, or puzzles. (The sections other than video list are allowed, but must be on one page. There will be limitations on how much depth these can go into. Including a video list on a page will require an individual, or a group, to come forward as the official updater(s) of the page - for this coverage level ''only''.)
 +
*'''Partially-full coverage (characters/videos/puzzles)''' - Series with this classification are allowed secondary pages for character information OR videos OR puzzles. (Two coverage categories are allowed, but all three is the same as full coverage.)
 +
*'''Full coverage''' - Series with this classification are allowed to expand freely as their content maintainers deem necessary.
  
−
For whomever is desiging the pages, we now have a few images of Kate, thanks to her Bebo profile.
+
:'''Automatic Re-classification:'''
−
[[Image:KateModern Cast.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern1.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern2.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern3.jpg|thumb|110px|left]] [[Image:KateModern4.jpg|thumb|110px|left]]{{Clr}}
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:#Series can be automatically re-classified if an element of the series is featured by the Creators. Only the element that was featured will be elevated, so, for instance, if a video is featured, the series will only be granted full coverage for the video section. (If only one video is featured, we may want to limit the transcribing to only that video; I haven't decided on this yet.) Featured content will get its own category.
−
--[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:48, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
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:#Re-classification can also be automatic if an element of the series is shown as canon, as was the case with Paul & Andrea. Only parts shown as canon will be re-classified, although two or more sections being deemed canon will escalate to full coverage. (Paul & Andrea showed the videos and characters to be canon, so they would get full-coverage.) Canon content will be categorized as such.
 +
:NOTE: In order to take advantage of automatic re-classification, a user must link to, or reference where the series was featured/canonized. If a link or reference is not provided, a discussion is the only way to get the series re-classified.
  
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I have to confess i haven't read all the comments her yet, but it seems the easiest and most efficient way to implement miles' directive is to create a main page for kate modern.  the main page for the lgpedia and kmpedia (or whatever it gets called) should both include a prominent link to the other. lonelygirl15.com/kmpedia (or whatever its called) she be made sure to redirect (by their webguys, this isn't a wiki thing) to the kmpedia main page.   the kmpedia page is not going to have a lot to start, but i would get it in place and go from there. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 00:12, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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===Singular Videos===
 +
All videos will be listed on a single page with a one-line description and a link to the video. If the video is featured or deemed canon, it will be allowed a page for its transcription and will categorized accordingly. Many of the same guidelines that would apply to series would apply to the individual videos, such as a minimum content requirement.
  
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: ok, whizzes get to work?!! i think the red color of kate's bebo profile should be used in instead of the lgpedia blue? http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Kmpedia --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 00:26, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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===General Notes===
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::I played with the new page just a bit, as I know little-to-nothing about the wikicodes and didn't want to mess everything up --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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*All UGC content will receive a box on their talk pages, describing what category they are (with a link to the descriptions of each), and the justification for it.
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:::Okay, I took it a little further.  We clearly need someone to get the colors looking right.. and we need to crop the images of the cast to the proper size. I didn't really know what to put in the Encyclopedia/Important Links yet, so I just kind of listed some LG pages I thought might be useful. If someone could find like.. Kate's BeBo, or anything else you think would be more important/better suited there, I think it would be great!  But generally speaking, I think it's a good start.  What do y'all think?  (Or are we better going with a layout more similar to [[AphidPedia]]?) Okay, thoughts please!  I'm off to bed!  --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:20, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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*Content can be escalated beyond what happens automatically, but a consensus is required to do so. There will be a discussion page for all UGC content for this purpose, and once a decision is reached, an archive of the discussion will be posted on the talk pages.
−
::::If we're going to have a seperate KMPedia anyway, I'll try to design something that is like Miles wanted - Two portals and a general universe news main page.
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*A "starter template" will be created for both series pages and video pages, so we'll be able to unify the look of pages easier. I've created a preliminary idea of what the series template would look like [[User:Shiori/Template#New Sample Series Template|here]].
−
::::I'll update pages when I'm done, and expect your opinions afterwards.
+
*Also pertinent to this discussion would be whether we want to officially rename the UGC category to something more acceptable, such as "Community Videos" and "Community Series" (with Series being a sub-category of Videos, and both remaining a sub-category of Fan Stuff)
−
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 03:32, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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*Another idea is whether we want to in some way differentiate series that relate to LG15, or go off in their own direction. I was thinking categorization may work, although even listing them in separate sections on the same listing could work, as well.
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:::::Cool I was Planning on working on it a little tomorrow, but i think I'll wait till you get started and I'll help you refine it. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 03:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
----
−
::::::It's looking much better already! The show debuts on July 16 per the article in today's Sunday Times (UK) (posted at lg15today) --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 08:14, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
===Discussion===
−
:::::::Misty, about what you said about the "LG15 Universe." Miles clearly stated in his first quote that the LG15 Universe is the universe that encompasses [[lonelygirl15]] ''and'' [[KateModern]]. I am sorry about not understanding your post. I completely agree with that. I've been thinking, particularly about what Miles wanted, and this is what I've come up with. The C's will do whatever they want with the main lonelygirl15.com page, but they did say that both shows will be viewable from it, and that they would have a link to the lonelygirl15 portal, and the KateModern portal. I think that the KMPedia page right now should actually be the KateModern portal. And that the Main Page right now should be moved to some other name, and it will be the lonelygirl15 portal. The Main Page should be, as Renegade said, a "general universe news main page." I think that that should be on the bottom half of the page, and the "Choose Your Destination" with links to both the lonelygirl15 portal and the KateModern portal will be at the top. I think that maybe we should delete more fan fiction pages (it's overwhelming how much there is) so that we have more room on the wiki for KateModern pages. Those are just my thoughts. Thanks, <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]] <small>[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">Contribs</font>]]</small></span> 10:40, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
Feel free to expand on these. They're just a preliminary drawing up, after seeing where people disagreed in the last discussions and trying to resolve those issues while still striving for better content coverage. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:18, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
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Hey guys.  I think that the previous comment is accurate.  Regardless of the past meanings of things.  Here's the current dealio.  LG15 is the Universe (HOO, The Order, Watchers, Ceremony Girls, etc.) and there are currently two shows running in that Universe: lonelygirl15 and KateModern. The LGPedia should encompass the whole LG15 Universe and should reflect that on the front page. Things like the video list, cast list, production list, etc. are all SHOW SPECIFIC and would be on those show pages. So, the current LGPedia front page is almost what each of the show pages (lonelygirl15 and KateModern) should look like (but with different logos and color schemes... will get you those soon).  IN FACT, you could use that "show template" for the fan created shows as well... but obviously house them in some "fan section" that comes off the new LG15 Universe front page of LGPedia. Things like active shows, "Latest Developments in the LG15 Universe" (like you already have running along the right) could stay on the new portal (maybe you associate a Show Logo and color backdrop kinda like what you are currently doing for the different bloggers who post a video... with each "update" so it's clear which updates come from KM and which come from lonelygirl15). The index to the left would change (since cast, crew, etc. is a show specific thing).  Make sense?  Thanks everyone!!!!!  Miles [[User:Admin|Admin]] 12:13, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
:It's certainly thorough. I agree that something needs to be done, and the guidelines that have just been proposed are the most fair that have been... well, proposed. The major problem I'd like to address is something that Shiroi touched on in the guidelines, and that is incomplete pages. The purpose of this is not for content creators to get their work featured only for no one to update and maintain the area. Also, series's that deviate completely from the LG15 canon have no place on the LGPedia (a la ''Sofia's Diary'' and ''Forevergrace'') except for special circumstances (a la ''With the Angels''). --[[User:FH14|FH14]]15:15 30 March 2009 (EST)
 +
::: One key factor is that anyone who wishes to mess with older series should invest the time to thoroughly research and view the entire series before moving stuff around. If you have not done that then you are not an authority on the subject and might do serious damage to LGPedia as an archive of valuable information in what you might think is an attempt to simply clean things up.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 14:06, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
::::mm has a serious point, as I didn't realize how involved HSA was until I got down into it. The real problem is some of the series are no longer available for whatever reason, and we're lacking contributors with knowledge on the subject. That's pretty much why I felt the need to make that long post on LG15 Today.
 +
::::And, FH14, that was in my original proposal, but I didn't want to throw it out there without admin support, since that was never thoroughly discussed in the previous proposals. [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 14:31, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
:::::FH14  said "Also, series's that deviate completely from the LG15 canon" - That has just never been the way LGPedia or LG15.com has been run.  It was always open to user generated content and none other then Miles Beckett encouraged us to create out own series.  The TOS also has an entire section on what are called "indies" that have no relationship to the LG15 story.  Fan creations have always been welcomed on LGPedia and to change that policy would not only violate the original intent but it would also destroy LGPedia. If you actually want to build up a user base you need to work with fans as contributers and creators in their own right. I think you have lost enough users by implementing very poor decisions. Do you really want to continue with that trend to oblivion?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:56, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
::::::I'm afraid you misinterpreted what I said. Community Series that are considered "indie", such as the Coalition and Maddison Atkins, do not fall under the category of "deviating completely from the LG15 canon" There are elements, whether it be a strong connection to the community or a shared universe with a series that is heavily associated with LG15. There are some series, however, that have next to no relation to LG15 and shouldn't be covered, an example being Sofia's Diary, whose only connection is that it is another show hosted on Bebo. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 17:42, 30 March 2009 (EST)
 +
:::::::I don't see any problem with having a page for shows such ''With the Angels'' or ''3rd Triad'' since these are done by members of the community and contain actors that have been in lg15. As long as it is no more than a page with some information about it and who is in it for the purpose of establishing it isn't some show added to the pedia like ''Sofia's Diary'' without any connection. --[[User:KindredPhantom|KindredPhantom]] 16:48, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
::::::::Just going to add my thoughts here as a regular LGPedia editor - I agree with most of Shiori's aforementioned guidelines. I'm kind of confused on a few things, however. First, which series would get the "partially-full" coverage, and what factors are we going to take into consideration while deciding which two of the three categories it receives? Also, with the partially-full coverage, does it get individual pages for its videos, or just a list of videos page? My own thoughts on that are that only the fully covered series should have character pages, video pages, puzzle pages, etc - that would include Redearth88, Maddison Atkins, and possibly LonelyJew15 since Jenni Powell is working on it, and she used to work for EQAL. And then everything else would either go into a single page or "partially-full" coverage, which I'm still not entirely sure about. Could someone digress about that? Also, shows like "With the Angels" and "3rd Triad" could receive a single page - where shows like "Sofia's Diary" and "OzGirl" would not even be covered on the Pedia. <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 18:03, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
 +
:Here's how the "middle section" of the system would work (I moved this out, since the inlining would make it itty-bitty):
 +
:'''Partially-full coverage''' (I only chose that name because partial coverage implied it was getting less than basic) means that it would be allowed to expand into more than one page for ''only the section it has been granted extra coverage for''. So, if something was given Partially-full coverage (video), then it would be allowed to have transcripts or whatever anyone feels would be necessary to do justice to giving it coverage on the video section. As I said, I'm not sure whether we would want one featured video to bump a series up to allowing transcripts for ''every'' video, but in general, that's how it would work. This is the reason I created the allowance for individual sections to be granted partially-full coverage: so that we can readily expand on one section of a series without necessarily granting it the right to expand in all areas.
 +
:The categories it's allowed to expand come from either having a subject of that section featured by the C's (or based on a discussion specifically asking to expand a particular section for whatever reason). Like I said, we may want to lock it down so that if they feature a singular video, a full video list may be allowed, but only a transcript for that particular video would be allowed - I'm not sure of that, though. The same would apply for Characters or Puzzles.
 +
:I mainly created the category because I can't think of a good justification for prohibiting a series from expanding something that was featured or made canon, just as I can't think of a good reason to say that any series that has been featured in any way should get full coverage for every aspect of the series. [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:14, 31 March 2009 (CDT)
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::Sounds like a fair system that prevents the pedia from being cluttered with ever show. I have no objections. --[[User:KindredPhantom|KindredPhantom]] 14:59, 2 April 2009 (CDT)
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:::Since no one's had any objections to this, I'm going to try and flesh out the system and start tagging pages to fit the categories. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:46, 4 April 2009 (CDT)
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::::Should we make templates for all three categories and then tag each UGC page accordingly? <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 14:39, 4 April 2009 (CDT)
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:::::Actually, I was going to make a template similar the ones they use on talk pages for Wikipedia projects. You could enter what class it was, and unless you enter a class AND a justification, it gets a basic class setting. It'll also have an area to set main contributors. I had started coding it earlier today, and then my browser crashed. Now I'm being hailed by the husband to actually get off my butt for the weekend, but I'll take care of it later. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:19, 4 April 2009 (CDT)
  
−
:So what you're saying, Miles, is that we still have the "portal" type of page that we have for lonelygirl15 on the Main Page, except it would be the LG15 Universe Portal. With links to the lonelygirl15 portal (the current Main Page) and the KateModern portal ([[KMPedia]]). Thanks, Miles! [[User:72.77.92.54|72.77.92.54]] 13:35, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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Alright, here's how this is working, if anyone wants to help me out. I'm going through EVERYTHING listed in [[:Category:User Generated Content]], to make sure I catch everything.
 +
#Tag content with {{tl|community content}}. (You may want to read the new pages about how I'm implementing it.)
 +
##If it's content that was never featured or not part of a series with extended coverage, mark it for deletion. (Mark any images included on these pages for deletion, as well.)
 +
##Videos that were featured are to be tagged as basic coverage, with a link to where they were featured. Also, add these to [[:Category:Featured content]]
 +
##I'm basing ratings off of the old [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List]], but factoring in the new rating system - all tier 1 and 2s will get basic coverage, 3s and 4s will generally get partially-full; use your judgment.
 +
#Add content to [[Community Content/Series]], [[Community Content/Videos]], or [[Community Content/Other]], based on what they are (other being things like commentors).
 +
#Move content from [[:Category:User Generated Content]] to [[:Category:Community content]], with series being signified as such by going in [[:Category:Community series]].
 +
We'll go through everything once we're done to figure out what meets coverage criteria. This is solely to get things tagged and worked on. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:02, 7 April 2009 (CDT)
  
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::Essentially, yes. With the caveat that right now the current Main Page has "LG15 Universe" stuff that wouldn't be on the new lonelygirl15 and definitely should be on the new LG15 Main Page. Ditto for the KateModern portal that is evolving on KMPedia.  Hope that's clear.  Thanks everyone.  I am constantly amazed, honoured, and inspired by how much you all love this Universe I created and how much time you spend caring for and developing the LGPedia. THANKS! Miles. [[User:Admin|Admin]] 17:02, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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'''Done.''' Everything's all moved around. FH14, if you want to start tagging stuff that's not LG15-related, you can do it now. Everyone, as much as I know you hate to hear it, his views about that kind of thing were come straight from the Creators. "Although we’re big fans of every great web series out there, because the LGPedia is dedicated to the LG15 Universe, it should only include information about shows in the LG15 Universe or featured on LG15.com." - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:09, 9 April 2009 (CDT)
  
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:::Miles, (And everyone else, I'd love EVERYONES feedback), I went ahead on my sandbox page and tried to create what ''I'' thought you were asking for.  [[User:Zoey/sandbox]] has the main page and [[User:Zoey/sandbox/Portal:LGPedia]] is the LGPedia portal while [[User:Zoey/sandbox/Portal:KMPedia]] is the KMPedia portal.  Obviously the pages are highly messy at the moment, and could use a good cleanup (I don't pretend to be the best at Wiki-coding, so maybe someone else could come in and give the pages a spruce.), but basically I tried to create what you were asking for, at least as a staring point.  I'm not sure whether this is the best idea, or whether we should stick with our current mainpage and just create a prominent link to the KMPedia page and just.. repeat links that apply to both, but I did want to get this up so people could see what they thought.  Hopefully this is what you were asking for, and I'd love feedback/suggestions for more links or anything else you thought the pages needed.  For now, I'm going to go rest my eyes for a bit -- I've been staring at this wiki for FAR too long :)  Good luck with the launch of Kate coming up, and hope to hear your thoughts (and everyone else's!) soon! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:58, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
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:Okay, so I'm mainly working with the [[OpAphid ARG]], and I was just wondering (and this goes for all series that have full coverage) -- should it get a character page (I started working on a very rough one on [[OpAphid ARG characters]])? How about something like [[List of OpAphid ARG videos]]? [[OpAphid ARG locations]]? [[Redearth88 locations]], etc? <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 10:14, 11 April 2009 (CDT)
  
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::::Zoey, I'm positive that's what Miles is asking for. Nice starting point! I think that the main page should still say "Welcome to the LGPedia," but the LG15 Portal should say "Welcome to the LG15 Portal" and the KM Portal should say "Welcome to the KM Portal," or something similar to that. Nice starting point, though! However, I think the LG15 Universe Portal that you did was kinda iffy. I think that you should have a big "Choose Your Destination" and then there would be the pictures of Bree and Kate. But otherwise, Zoey, great job! <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Silver•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]] <small>[[User talk:SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">Talk</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/SilverBULLETx3|<font color="white">Contribs</font>]]</small></span> 10:12, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
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== News Page/New Discussion Areas ==
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::::Zoey, I also agree that your latest sandbox concepts are what we are looking for. The new terminology seems to be LG15 = universe, lonelygirl15 and KateModern = shows within the universe... therefore the parent "Universe Portal" has links to each child "Show Portal". Each show portal has links to cast/crew/episodes etc. Once the full set of portals are set up, I am sure everyone will refine and evolve the design to make it better. And Zoey, sorry I haven't been around to help out more (blame "stupid real life"). [[User:Psmith|Psmith]] 16:07, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
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−
:::::Okay, I recently e-mailed Miles and he said that he would prefer if we use cast photos instead of photos of the lead actresses for the portals, but other than that, I generally think we're set.  He also said he thinks it would be neat if the portal page was more "dynamic" but I asked for further clarification on that, I am waiting for a reply.  As soon as I get cast photos up though, I think I am going to go ahead and make the pages live, if there are no objections.  It seems like I have made the pages in a way that pleases everybody (hopefully?? well, maybe not ''everybody'', but yes hopefully ''enough''.)  If anyone knows where I can get some recent cast photos that I can at least use as a stand-in, that would be great.  Thanks to everyone for your opinions and ideas, and if you have any more thoughts, please post 'em!  And PSmith, ugh, more "real life" excuses!  Harumph! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 17:16, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
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−
::::::So, since instead of a picture of Bree and a picture of Kate, I assume we can use [[Image:Human Ransom.jpg]] for [[lonelygirl15]] and [[Image:KateModern cast.jpg]] for [[KateModern]]. [[User:72.77.92.54|72.77.92.54]] 15:12, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
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Miles told me he would be providing me with new cast photos shortly. I know he just flew to Cali from London, so he probably won't get back to me for a bit, but I am expecting some photos from him to use. :) --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:26, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
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I know, I'm just full of suggestions lately. ;P This I've been sitting on for a while, but I didn't want to mention it until our login ability was back. This comes in two forms:
 +
#Ren wants to create a news aggregator that could link all things new in the LG15 Universe, which includes the Pedia. However, he needs a singular page with some sort of tag signaling news headlines and whatnot to use. This would obviously get us more coverage everywhere, so it'd be a benefit to all. I'm thinking we'd want to cover major discussions and updates, such as redesigns. We wouldn't want to cover new videos (at least not using the tag Ren will use to pull out news items), as he will be pulling feeds directly from LG15.com. Any suggestions on how this would work, what to include, etc. would be much appreciated.
 +
#Lucy's Balcony is a great place to list major suggestions, but other suggestions for updates really have no home other than on their articles' talk pages. I'm thinking we may want to create pages to list ALL discussions on proposed merges, deletions, what have you. Note: I am aware we have existing categories for these, but this would place the entire discussion for each in one area. It would be easier to look at a page listing all expansion/merge/etc. ideas in one place than trying to convince everyone to look at the teeny-tiny sidebar in Recent changes. We could obviously link to these pages from both there and here.
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I'm not even sure if we'd want to do this, since it would be a major change in how we're programmed to do business on the Pedia, but it is something to ponder. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:27, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
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:I love the first idea very much! Perhaps it could work as a supplement to the Main Page that is placed above the series' links. (Or perhaps a preview of a said page on the Main Page that links to a full page with all the said info.) The second idea is definitely something to consider, through it all depends on how that could be executed. --[[User:FH14|FH14]]
  
−
== Browser neutrality or Official Browser ==
+
::The idea sounds interesting but whilst reading through the [http://www.lg15.com/info/terms/ legal terms] for lg15.com:
  
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Ok there are some pages ( like the list of videos page ), that have significant differences when rendered in different browsers, and currently anyone can just edit to make the page look good in there own browser, and things don't look quite right in other browsers.  I think we need a standard, either we enforce "Browser Neutrality", by not allowing any page design that doesn't look '''as good''' in all Browsers, or we declare one Browser the official Browser, and all pages are '''optimized''' to look best in that Browser, ''' but must still look reasonble in all browsers'''.  Realistically there are only 3 Browsers, that we need to concern ourselves with Safari (Webkit), Firefox (Gecko) and  Internet Explorer (Trident), since every other Browser uses the same rendering engine as one of them. all of them have pros and cons:
+
::Section 4, D:
 +
"You agree not to use or launch any automated system, including without limitation, "robots," "spiders," or "offline readers," that accesses the Website in a manner that sends more request messages to the lonelygirl15 servers in a given period of time than a human can reasonably produce in the same period by using a conventional on-line web browser."
  
−
Safari (Webkit) -  
+
::Does this prevent this idea from being implemented since it will pull information from Eqal servers? --[[User:KindredPhantom|KindredPhantom]] 16:41, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
−
*Pros: Renders fonts better than any other Browser, most compliant to WC3 web standards. 
+
−
*Cons: Windows version is still Beta,  
+
−
*Other Webkit Browsers: OmniWeb, Swift, Sunrise, Midori, Shiira, Konqueror
+
  
−
Internet Explorer (Trident)
+
:::That's quite interesting, KP - thanks for finding that. I'm not sure what that means for Ren's aggregator idea. About your other suggestion, Shiori, I agree that these things need to be on other places besides Recent changes, but how and where would we implement this? <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 18:05, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
−
*Pros: Largest market share,
+
−
*Cons- Ignores WC3 standards, renders poorly
+
−
*Other Trident Browsers:  AOL Explorer,Avant, Maxthon
+
  
−
FireFox (Gecko)
+
::::For everything else I get so far, that is a decided '''no''', that license does not apply to my activities. For generating a feed from LGPedia's news, while I would not use pre-made RSS feeds as on the other sites, I would also not download and save the whole page, nor would I traverse the entire pedia. I would extract specific content from a singular page.
−
*Pros: Good WC3 compliance, best cross-platform support.
+
::::I don't know the exact timing, but I've used Yahoo! Pipes in the past to merge RSS feeds, and it took a noticeable while longer than direct feeds for the videos to appear - the number thrown around in comments on the web is 30 minutes. I believe that is not quicker than the average video-addicted comment boarder refreshes the video page ;)
−
*Cons: inconsistent line spacing, adding extra pixels to object heights.
+
::::In addition, I think you have the wrong license. [http://www.eqal.com/terms/ This one] is the one used on all of EQAL currently, through the link in the footer. I believe the only paragraph that even ''touches'' this project is 9., which, in my opinion, would be irrelevant, because I would not be "downloading" and "distributing" EQAL content, but content posted by "members" (you guys) - and since you guys would post news not only knowing full well I would aggregate them, but with the express purpose of that, there's really no surprise or violation of anyone's rights going on here.
−
*Other Gecko Browsers: Netscape,Seamonkey, Camino, Galleon, Epiphany, K-Meleon, Flock
+
::::I haven't themed it yet, but if you want a sneak preview, have a look [http://the436.com here].
−
. --[[User:Misty|misty]] 14:03, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
+
::::It's already working fine, and focuses on LG15 and related stuff only (that is, it's not filled up with Harper's Globe).
 +
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 31 March 2009 (CDT)
  
−
:::'''Vote Tally'''
+
==Maddison Atkins==
−
''Browser Neutrality''
+
I thought I should open this up for discussion. Maddison Atkins recently got a spiffy new website which includes a wiki. Because of this, it may make the most sense to move the information regarding MA from here at the LGPedia to the wiki devoted to it on its official website, and in its place, leaving a single page explaining the series a la the [[Harper's Globe]] page. That said, I think the Redearth88 info should stay put for now. Here's basically my idea:
−
# Support Enforced Browser Neutrality
+
*A single page explaining the Maddison Atkins ARG.
−
## [[User:Zoey|Zoey]]
+
*Pages in that section to keep:
−
## [[User:Misty|Misty]]
+
**[[I Heard Pain, Odd Evil Fiction]] - Part of OpAphid
−
## [[User:Modelmotion|Modelmotion]]
+
**[[Maddison Atkins]] - Character page, abeit compressed. This one is a bit iffy, because she is also mentioned as a background character in RE88.
−
## [[User:Phoenician|Phoenician]]
+
**[[Gregory Atkins]] - Same logic as Maddison
−
# Opposed of enforced Browser Neutrality
+
**[[War Pylol]] - Part of OpAphid and RE88
−
## [[User:Renegade|Renegade]]
+
**[[Dr. William Arscott]] - Same logic as Maddison and Gregory, but a bit more of a lean to keep.
−
## [[User:-R-|-R-]]
+
**[[15over15]] - Really a RE88 character
−
''Official Browser''
+
Thoughts? Concerns? Suggestions? --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 14:20, 3 May 2009 (EST)
−
# Support Firefox as the Official Browser
+
:I like this idea. Should we start by making an HG-ish page for MA, under the name of [[Maddison Atkins ARG]], or something like that? <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 16:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
−
## [[User:Renegade|Renegade]]
+
−
## [[User:-R-|-R-]]
+
−
# Support Safari as the Official Browser
+
−
## [[User:Misty|Misty]]
+
−
# Support IE as the Official Browser
+
  
 +
Why not just leave things alone as they should be.  They are fine as were. Why change what is not broken?.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 03:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 +
:It doesn't make sense for identical information to be present in two places. The reason Harper's Globe isn't more present is because it has its own wiki. The information regarding Maddison Atkins would work better that the new wiki that has been made for it, and it doesn't make much sense to have two wikis containing the exact same information that would both need to be updated. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 09:10, 14 May 2009 (EST)
 +
::Also, to add upon what FH14 said, if we were to pick one wiki to have the Maddison information on it, it would be the Maddypedia - Jeromy created it to be the official Maddison wiki and it wouldn't make sense to have information on the LGPedia about Maddison but not on the official Maddypedia. I mean, the Maddypedia is on Maddison Atkins's official website. <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 20:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 +
:::While I am not a very active participant in LGPedia anymore, so perhaps my word carries less weight now, but the fact that information is available in more than one place on the Internet is part of the strength of the Internet.  The current Maddison Atkins section of the LGPedia is pretty comprehensive and complete and isn't hurting anything as far as I can tell.  Plus, when there was an earlier brouhaha well over a year ago about which series were deserving of more attention on LGPedia, Maddy was near the top.  Maddison Atkins is tied to Lonelygirl15, among other ways, through its connection to the lg15 community.  In a few years from now, few will remember any of the shit we cared about as lg15 fans.  But if we go about deleting parts of the lgpedia, it only helps ensure that those memories, as fleeting and inconsequential as they may be in the scheme of life, though deeply important to others as least for a period of time, are lost.--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 05:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
  
−
<br>
+
== Now that OpAphid is LG15 canon again... ==
  
−
:Didn't we reduce the render-difference to different line heights in List of Videos? At least that's the only significant difference I remember and see...
+
I would like to propose some points for how we should handle the content on the LGPedia.
−
:Of course I'd love Firefox to become the official browser, but unless that happens, I'd prefer neutrality - 'cause I sure as hell won't develop on IE, and I'm not gonna install that buggy apple thing on my machine.
+
−
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:14, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
+
−
:Personally, I vote for browser-neutrality.  As web developers, you want your pages to look nice for everyone who views them, not force your viewers to use a certain browser or "tough luck guys".  Plus, with something as widely viewed as the LGPedia, I think it's fair to say no matter what browser would be chosen as "official", there will be a LARGE number of viewers who do not use that. So yes, I vote for neutrality. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 23:52, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
+
−
::Ok well if we for browser neutrality the list of videos page need another redesign, sinse the montage to list alignment breaks browser neutrality. so no pages can be designed to need vertical alignment of independent objects. So it looks like so far everyone is agreeable to browser neutrality, I say that if there are no objections by midnight July 10, that we make that official policy, and add it to the style guide -[[User:Misty|Misty]] 02:33, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
  
−
:::I think different line height is close enough to not count as "differently looking".
+
*'''Character pages''' (namely [[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], [[Brother]], and [[War Pylol]]) - I suggest that we get rid of the "OpAphid ARG characters" template. That way, these four characters can be tagged using the lonelygirl15 characters template (the way [[Suzie]] and [[Jack]] and [[Paladin]]s are), and the [[Redearth88]] characters template. For their "Person" template, it should be the LG15 color and not the RE88 color (considering they were first LG15 characters, and are once again currently LG15 characters). Now, some of these pages were set up a bit weird because OpAphid was an ARG, so these characters should get an introduction, a background section with several subsections (one of the subsections being their story in Redearth88), notes, etymology, references, etc. Also, we have to be especially careful with OpAphid's character page because it's gotten cluttered over time, as people have used it for the OpAphid show page. Two different OpAphids right there.
−
:::After all, the only thing different is how far down the montage extends.
+
*'''Portal:OpAphid ARG''' (formerly known as the AphidPedia) - This page has kind of left me dumbfounded. I sort of think we should treat OpAphid as a miniseries (equivalent to [[Watchyourjack]], [[Nikki Bower Report]], etc.), and WYJ and NBR don't have portals. One could argue that OpAphid played a much larger role in the actual LG15 storyline and that's true, but once again I'm not sure what to do with this page. If anybody has any suggestions, please comment below the entire post. Thanks!
−
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 03:32, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''OpAphid ARG''' (the show page) - This page is also kind of weird. When I first made it, I was considering OpAphid a miniseries. I even deleted the OpAphid portal but modelmotion didn't like that move, so I just made the two pages. Now that the show is LG15 canon, I honestly think it should be treated as a miniseries ARG. So my proposal is to delete the portal and keep the show page, unless somebody else has other ideas.
−
:::: Yes it certainly counts , in fact that is the ''main issue''  for this whole discussion. We either declare Firefox safari or IE as the official Browser, and align it for that; or we declare Browser Neutrality and the page gets redesigned so vertical alignment doesn't matter.  -[[User:Misty|misty]] 03:59, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''Redearth88''' and '''Redearth88 (show)''' (former parent series) - I was kind of stumped as to why Redearth88 is the portal. It would make more sense to me if Redearth88 was the show page, and then Portal:Redearth88 or something along those lines was a portal (if it's going to have a portal at all.
−
:::::If you decide to redesign a perfectly fine layout just because the lines are a little more spaced in one browser, you're doing that alone, missy. :P
+
*'''OpAphid puzzles''' and '''OpAphid drops''' - These pages should be the only two pages that exist on the 'Pedia for OpAphid puzzles and drops. I tried to re-do the OpAphid puzzles page but I don't think I'm knowledgable enough about the puzzles to make a difference. Right now, the way it's set up is that the "OpAphid puzzles" page and the "OpAphid drops" page link to dozens of other pages, each one detailing one puzzle or drop. I think that they should all be merged into OpAphid puzzles and OpAphid drops. Also, I think the pages should be moved to OpAphid ARG puzzles and OpAphid ARG drops. Merge the profile update pages and other things into these pages as well.
−
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:27, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''Operation APHID''' - Keep this page as a current division of the Order.
−
:::::: That sounds like a vote againsts enforced browser neutrality. Ok so that things don't get confused I'm going to put a vote tally: Please ad or edit your vote appropriately. -[[User:Misty|Misty]] 11:42, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''OPAPHID''' - Keep this page.
−
::I use all the main browsers with the excepetion of IE (but including Safari and Firefox). As long as pages are readable on a mac I am happy, but please dont make this a mac vs pc issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:50, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''OpAphid ARG characters''' - Delete this page unless similar pages are created for "Watchyourjack characters" and "Nikki Bower Report characters."
−
:I'm mainly an IE user, but I've also use FireFox as well. I think the best way to go is browser neutrality, since it wouldn't be right to force a certain browser on others. As for that videolist montage, its unmatched with the latest vids from an IE view, but hey, I'm used to it. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 03:43, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''Everything You Need to Play OpAphid''' - Delete or merge into the introduction of OpAphid puzzles.
−
::no one is talking about forcing people to use a particular browser, having an official browser means that pages '''that render differently''' in different browser must optimized for that browser. Currently the list of videos is the page that most renders differently, so saying "I support enforcing browser neutrality, but I don't care about the list of videos" is saying "I don't support enforced browser neutrality". So then we have to pick a browser to '''optimize the list of videos for ''', that's why we would need an official browser. -[[User:Misty|misty]] 11:56, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
+
*'''Sebastian''' and '''Aly Zarin''' - Merge into [[Brother]] and [[Tachyon]].
−
Uh, O.K., I see this has kind of been going on for a while, but I want to jump in. I believe that FireFox should be the official LGPedia browser on account that it is cross platform. There are really no literal "system requirements" which is good, because I run Windows 2K and most newer browsers won't support the OS. I'm not sure if this really effects most of the people on the site, but sometimes it does to me. I don't care if it is the official browser, but if it is at least optimized for a cross-system browser, I'll be happy. Love, [[User:-R-|-R-]] 15:50, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
+
  
−
Well I was hoping that we would have a clearer consensus. from the comments, I'm not 100% convinced that people who voted for enforced browser neutrality really understood what they were voting for. I think we need to give it a few more days, before setting policy.  So how about July 15 Midnight CDT -[[User:Misty|misty]] 02:01, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
+
Any comments, replies, concerns, or questions? Leave them here, and thanks for reading! <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 00:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
  
−
:Finally something ending in central time :D but honestly, I am all for the official browser being FireFox. Love, [[User:-R-|-R-]] 02:14, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
+
===Comments===
 +
*My own question is whether OpAphid is in the Order still or not. In Redearth88, she departed from them but Miles has stated that Redearth88 is not LG15 canon. So... <span style="background:DarkSlateGray">[[User:Kevin|<font color="white">&nbsp;&nbsp;'''•Kevin•'''&nbsp;&nbsp;</font>]]</span> 00:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
  
−
:More importantly, they probably don't know that these three rendering engines ''render pages differently'', and that it's ''impossible'' to "enforce" browser neutrality. If you consider different line-height reason enough for a re-design already, LGPedia will never ever be able to use anything with width and borders again - simply because of IE's box model.
+
Hey Kevin, thanks for your thoughts.
−
:Again, I reiterate: We should try to get it as close as possible, but trying to enforce the pages look 100% the same is just stupid, because it's impossible - unless you're doing nothing more than colored text.
+
−
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:55, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
+
  
−
== A good-bye of sorts ==
+
Honestly though, after reading through all of this, I think it is just way too complicated.
  
−
There have recently been some changes in my real life. I was unsure what the adjustment would be as far as my time online is concerned.  It has now become obvious to me that I will no longer be able to remain active here at the LGPedia.  I still intend to read it, follow it and even occasionally edit and discuss, but I don't have the time to faithfully execute the job of administrator. I'm still immensely proud of having been involved with this wiki for the last 9 months and 3600+ edits, I am immensely proud of the quality of the Wiki and its over 1,000 articles. But it's time for me to step aside.  Effective immediately, Zoey will now serve as bureaucrat -- she and [[Miles Beckett|Miles]] will be the only people with the ability to create and remove administrators.  As [[User:Brucker|Brucker]] and I have been inactive for months, I'll remove our rights.  What happens after that is up to you. I wish everyone the best going forward. --[[User:JayHenry|JayHenry]] 11:21, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
+
OpAphid was originally its own series (not an LG15 miniseries), then it came together with Lonelygirl15, and then it seperated off again into its own thing (Redearth88). OpAphid was really always canon during the days it was canon, and not canon during the days it wasn't. Therefore, I think messing with the pages in this way undermines the integrity of the pages and kind of defeats the purpose its trying to achieve. I know you are trying to clarify, but I don't think we can clarify any better than has already been done, unless we can come up with a totally different and way simpler plan. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 01:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
−
:Bye Jay!!! :(  Definately hope to continue seeing you around, even if it's not on the LGPedia.  Thanks for all your hard work for so long!  I shall try to do you proud!  *cheesy grin* --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:33, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
+
  
−
Bye man. it was good working with you.--[[User:Iris2009|TJ Marsh]] 14:40, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
+
:I'm with Kevin on this, if only because the way it's currently being done is mind fuck of infinite proportions. The puzzles can be rolled into the lg15 and RE88 puzzles, the characters can be rolled into the respective character pages. The operation itself can be left as-is. There's no need for its own little show page, or an "introduction" (I always think these are stupid).  Regardless, I'm going to be redoing the designs because they're kind of fug right now (only colors; no graphics until the plan of attack is firmly decided). - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 +
::Figured I'd clarify on this. Since the characters are all across two series, they should either be split into canon character pages and non (silly), or have two sections on each page clarifying what they did on lg15 vs RE88. If you do it this way, Aly and Sebastian can be merged. Otherwise, I wouldn't even attempt it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 +
::: As I understand it there is only one OpAphid that dates back to pre-LG15.  The characters briefly entered into the LG15 story and that experience became canon. However that does not change the OpAphid experience which as far as we know is a single experience based and controlled by its creator.  Until we have any evidence to the contrary we could do serious damage to the integrity of the OpAphid experience by messing with this stuff.  It is possible that as TSIY-2 develops we may see further clarification, but to claim that there are two independent OpAphid experiences at this point is simply not supported by fact.  OpAphid was last seen in Redearth88 and we need to let events unfold before we know for sure how any OpAphid experience within the the LG15 Universe will unfold in the future and what that might mean for the OpAphid experience within Redearth88.  Those are decisions that are up to the creator of the OpAphid experience and all we know for now is that parts of that experience took place in the past within the LG15 Universe and parts were within Redearth88.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 +
::::Here's my two cents. Basically, as OpAphid will soon exist as canon across another LG15 series and not just the original, it doesn't really fall into the same category as Nikki Bower or Watchyourjack. (It never really did, in my opinion, as it existed on its own before and after LG15, making it a series in its own right.) It falls under more of a "Companion Series", in my opinion. Anyway, in regards to the ideas proposed by Kevin. I agree with renaming the show and portal pages and merging the puzzles and drops. The OpAphid ARG characters page is something that can be deleted, as it seems to have been stick in a development limbo for about a year. Keep: Everything You Need to Play OpAphid, OpAphid Character Index Template, The Portal and The Show Page, Operation APHID, and OPAPHID. I agree with what Shiori said about having a section on each character page devoted to the events on Redearth88, but I'm wary about merging Aly Zarin with Tachyon simply becuase it would eradicate the eight character setup for Redearth88 (as I'm quite OCD about that and It might cause me pain. :P) But this is just what I think. Feel free to disagree. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 14:44, 17 October 2009 (EST)
 +
::::: It would be very easy to do a lot of serious damage by moving things around. There is a lot of history here and it is very important stuff. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 +
:::::: Exactly, mm, but If we tread carefully and make well-thought out decisions in regards to this, the potential for damage is significantly lessened. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 14:56, 17 October 2009 (EST)

Latest revision as of 18:56, 17 October 2009

If you cannot access this page for whatever reason, please use LGPedia:Emma's Hideout
A couple of LGPedia admins (Jonpro & Phoenician) take a breather to admire the view from Lucy's Balcony.
Zoey, one of your LGPedia admins, frolics with the doves on Lucy's Balcony.


Welcome to Lucy's Balcony, a place to ask questions or discuss general issues about the LGPedia. This page is intended to be a place where admins and active editors can discuss ongoing issues, ideas and concerns. To start a new thread, click here. Please remember to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ at the end.

For old or inactive conversations, visit Lucy's archive.



Character Pages Discussion

Okay, so there's been some talk as to the condition of the character pages we have here on the Pedia. Just bring everyone up to speed, here's what's been said so far:

Zoey, I've been pondering this for some time and thought I may as well ask you about it. Why is it that we do an entire "story so far" on every main character page? Wouldn't it be easier to just highlight the big stuff under "background" and pay more attention to keeping up the The Story So Far.... I mean, it just seems like our character pages are going to be so huge that no one will read the entire thing when we could be using the really good parts of each character background to make a really awesome page for our story so far, plus it would be less work for each character page and more people would actually edit our story so far page instead of it being left for months without any work done to it. I hope that all makes sense as now I'm looking at it and seems quite long, anyway, it's not that big of deal, just thought I'd throw that out there. Nancypants 19:20, 19 February 2008 (CST)
I think you have a completely valid point. I've actually been pondering implimenting something to that effect for a long time. The only thing is, I couldn't figure out how to do up the characters' pages so that this would work. Do you have any ideas... maybe a mockup of a page idea so I (and others) can kind of get a better idea of what exactly you have in mind? I'd love to see it! --Zoey 14:55, 10 March 2008 (CDT)
OK, this is proving harder than I had thought it would be. It's difficult to decide what to do with it. Maybe we should start a discussion or something to get other people's input because I really do think it would be better to have the character pages be shorter, but I don't know where to start! By the way I'm not going to be able to do quite as much editing as I have been because people at work are getting suspicious. :( Nancypants 19:07, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

So yeah -- thoughts, people? --Pheon 11:38, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, first I think we should get rid of any sections that are covered in other places (ie: Daniels relationship section and Jonas's fan activity section) and just put links to them at the bottom with the theory links. EDIT: I have made a fake Daniel page here so if anyone has ideas please feel free to mess around and change things, it's just my sandbox. Nancypants 20:36, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Now that I've had time to look over the proposed page, I must say, I like it! - Shiori 12:54, 12 April 2008 (CDT)
I rather like the page too! I think it needs to be fleshed out in some parts (don't ask me where! if I could put my finger on it, I'd totally tell you! lol)... I just feel like it's a bit bare... but really... it's SO on the right track! --Zoey 11:03, 21 April 2008 (CDT)
NOTE: Since Nancy seems to have taken a hike, I'm considering taking this up again. I think we're in desperate need for this kind of thing on some pages, especially as characters span series. If anyone has anything further to suggest on this, please do. - Shiori 08:14, 16 March 2009 (CDT)

Admin

This probably isn't a good move, but I'd like to request a consideration of me being moved to admin. There are SO many changes that I'd like to see made to this wiki but I personally can't do anything as a regular editor. You can review my edits, etc. Just please think about it and get back to me here, anyone who could make that change. (Also, I was formerly SilverBULLETx3 as well.) Kevin 09:54, 16 January 2009 (CST)

"Current shows, former shows"

Over on the sidebar, it has "Current shows: LG15: The Resistance", and "Former shows: lonelygirl15, KateModern." This obviously does not apply anymore. What it should say is:

K, thanks! Kevin 15:28, 12 February 2009 (CST)

Actually, it should be: 

--FH14 16:45, 12 February 2009 (EST)

New Layouts (sort of)

I'm creating this section to discuss all of the layouts on the Pedia, minus the Portals and main pages. Most layouts need some SERIOUS updating; they look like a rainbow threw up on them, and don't match anything. Shiori 08:03, 16 March 2009 (CDT)

Character pages

I designed a new layout for the character pages. The only main differences are the edited Characterbox template to match the portal pages better (and unify font sizes and colors), and the abolition of those stupid stars on the page's subheaders. I'm open to suggestions, although I am rather fond of the way I set up the Characterbox template. Shiori 08:03, 16 March 2009 (CDT)

I like them a lot. Though the images for the Supporting Characters seem really small to me... --FH14 14:42 16 March 2009
I enlarged the images a bit; I can't make them too much bigger, since the main characters are supposed to have larger images, but it does look slightly better now. - Shiori 13:45, 16 March 2009 (CDT)
Looks good to me. --FH14 14:50, 16 March 2009 (EST)

Now that we can do stuff logged in again, I'm going to wait for some more comments on this. If I don't hear any major complaints, and can't find any pages that would be severely harmed by the newly updated version of the template, I'll put it up some time next week. Shiori 13:51, 30 March 2009 (CDT)

List of Video pages

I honestly don't really enjoy the LoV pages on the Pedia, maybe we could do it sort of how it is over at the Harper's Globe wiki, but with a template?   •Kevin•   19:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Creating Attention-grabbers page

Per the original discussion here, Zoey acknowledged the fact that the Use of Sex page is rather long and unnecessary. In response, I half-heartedly suggested that the best way to alter the page would be to create a page listing ALL of the attention-grabbers the Cs have ever used in the various series. The more I'm thinking about it, the more I think this was a good idea. Basically, I'm thinking of combining these pages into one: Use of sex in lonelygirl15, The thumbnail trick, Gunplay, Four-letter words, and a reference to Strange tags. (Jonas in a Bathtub should probably get added in to the sex information, too.) Some other pages could be added into this page, but I figured I'd open it up to everyone before I do anything. Shiori 08:33, 16 March 2009 (CDT)

I like the idea. Go for it and I'll help in whatever ways I'm needed.   •Kevin•   20:17, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
All done. I created the page Attention-grabbers used in LG15, made it more general, and replaced all of the existing links to the pages I merged into it. - Shiori 19:44, 2 April 2009 (CDT)

Final Community Content Suggestion

With the death of the previous two discussions on this subject, I bet everyone thought it would be left at that. However, I think we can all agree with Zoey's original opinion that something needs to be done to clean up existing content to get it to Pedia standards, as well as giving new series a guiding hand in how to cover their stuff on here.

So, I came up with some general guidelines, which are only slightly different than we had before, and yet vastly superior in ease of use and understanding.

Community Video Series

All series will be permitted one page. In order to have a page on the Pedia, the following information should be available: start date, URL where the series can be watched (only necessary for still-available series), and a short summary. These elements may be expanded upon, but generally these would be wanted for a page. A one-liner page will be subject to deletion if it offers no good information about the series and cannot be expanded.

The series can have one of THREE classifications:

  • Basic coverage - the default for all series. Series with this coverage are not allowed to have secondary pages for characters information, videos, or puzzles. (The sections other than video list are allowed, but must be on one page. There will be limitations on how much depth these can go into. Including a video list on a page will require an individual, or a group, to come forward as the official updater(s) of the page - for this coverage level only.)
  • Partially-full coverage (characters/videos/puzzles) - Series with this classification are allowed secondary pages for character information OR videos OR puzzles. (Two coverage categories are allowed, but all three is the same as full coverage.)
  • Full coverage - Series with this classification are allowed to expand freely as their content maintainers deem necessary.
Automatic Re-classification:
  1. Series can be automatically re-classified if an element of the series is featured by the Creators. Only the element that was featured will be elevated, so, for instance, if a video is featured, the series will only be granted full coverage for the video section. (If only one video is featured, we may want to limit the transcribing to only that video; I haven't decided on this yet.) Featured content will get its own category.
  2. Re-classification can also be automatic if an element of the series is shown as canon, as was the case with Paul & Andrea. Only parts shown as canon will be re-classified, although two or more sections being deemed canon will escalate to full coverage. (Paul & Andrea showed the videos and characters to be canon, so they would get full-coverage.) Canon content will be categorized as such.
NOTE: In order to take advantage of automatic re-classification, a user must link to, or reference where the series was featured/canonized. If a link or reference is not provided, a discussion is the only way to get the series re-classified.

Singular Videos

All videos will be listed on a single page with a one-line description and a link to the video. If the video is featured or deemed canon, it will be allowed a page for its transcription and will categorized accordingly. Many of the same guidelines that would apply to series would apply to the individual videos, such as a minimum content requirement.

General Notes

  • All UGC content will receive a box on their talk pages, describing what category they are (with a link to the descriptions of each), and the justification for it.
  • Content can be escalated beyond what happens automatically, but a consensus is required to do so. There will be a discussion page for all UGC content for this purpose, and once a decision is reached, an archive of the discussion will be posted on the talk pages.
  • A "starter template" will be created for both series pages and video pages, so we'll be able to unify the look of pages easier. I've created a preliminary idea of what the series template would look like here.
  • Also pertinent to this discussion would be whether we want to officially rename the UGC category to something more acceptable, such as "Community Videos" and "Community Series" (with Series being a sub-category of Videos, and both remaining a sub-category of Fan Stuff)
  • Another idea is whether we want to in some way differentiate series that relate to LG15, or go off in their own direction. I was thinking categorization may work, although even listing them in separate sections on the same listing could work, as well.

Discussion

Feel free to expand on these. They're just a preliminary drawing up, after seeing where people disagreed in the last discussions and trying to resolve those issues while still striving for better content coverage. - Shiori 13:18, 30 March 2009 (CDT)

It's certainly thorough. I agree that something needs to be done, and the guidelines that have just been proposed are the most fair that have been... well, proposed. The major problem I'd like to address is something that Shiroi touched on in the guidelines, and that is incomplete pages. The purpose of this is not for content creators to get their work featured only for no one to update and maintain the area. Also, series's that deviate completely from the LG15 canon have no place on the LGPedia (a la Sofia's Diary and Forevergrace) except for special circumstances (a la With the Angels). --FH1415:15 30 March 2009 (EST)
One key factor is that anyone who wishes to mess with older series should invest the time to thoroughly research and view the entire series before moving stuff around. If you have not done that then you are not an authority on the subject and might do serious damage to LGPedia as an archive of valuable information in what you might think is an attempt to simply clean things up.--modelmotion 14:06, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
mm has a serious point, as I didn't realize how involved HSA was until I got down into it. The real problem is some of the series are no longer available for whatever reason, and we're lacking contributors with knowledge on the subject. That's pretty much why I felt the need to make that long post on LG15 Today.
And, FH14, that was in my original proposal, but I didn't want to throw it out there without admin support, since that was never thoroughly discussed in the previous proposals. Shiori 14:31, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
FH14 said "Also, series's that deviate completely from the LG15 canon" - That has just never been the way LGPedia or LG15.com has been run. It was always open to user generated content and none other then Miles Beckett encouraged us to create out own series. The TOS also has an entire section on what are called "indies" that have no relationship to the LG15 story. Fan creations have always been welcomed on LGPedia and to change that policy would not only violate the original intent but it would also destroy LGPedia. If you actually want to build up a user base you need to work with fans as contributers and creators in their own right. I think you have lost enough users by implementing very poor decisions. Do you really want to continue with that trend to oblivion?--modelmotion 15:56, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
I'm afraid you misinterpreted what I said. Community Series that are considered "indie", such as the Coalition and Maddison Atkins, do not fall under the category of "deviating completely from the LG15 canon" There are elements, whether it be a strong connection to the community or a shared universe with a series that is heavily associated with LG15. There are some series, however, that have next to no relation to LG15 and shouldn't be covered, an example being Sofia's Diary, whose only connection is that it is another show hosted on Bebo. --FH14 17:42, 30 March 2009 (EST)
I don't see any problem with having a page for shows such With the Angels or 3rd Triad since these are done by members of the community and contain actors that have been in lg15. As long as it is no more than a page with some information about it and who is in it for the purpose of establishing it isn't some show added to the pedia like Sofia's Diary without any connection. --KindredPhantom 16:48, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
Just going to add my thoughts here as a regular LGPedia editor - I agree with most of Shiori's aforementioned guidelines. I'm kind of confused on a few things, however. First, which series would get the "partially-full" coverage, and what factors are we going to take into consideration while deciding which two of the three categories it receives? Also, with the partially-full coverage, does it get individual pages for its videos, or just a list of videos page? My own thoughts on that are that only the fully covered series should have character pages, video pages, puzzle pages, etc - that would include Redearth88, Maddison Atkins, and possibly LonelyJew15 since Jenni Powell is working on it, and she used to work for EQAL. And then everything else would either go into a single page or "partially-full" coverage, which I'm still not entirely sure about. Could someone digress about that? Also, shows like "With the Angels" and "3rd Triad" could receive a single page - where shows like "Sofia's Diary" and "OzGirl" would not even be covered on the Pedia.   •Kevin•   18:03, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
Here's how the "middle section" of the system would work (I moved this out, since the inlining would make it itty-bitty):
Partially-full coverage (I only chose that name because partial coverage implied it was getting less than basic) means that it would be allowed to expand into more than one page for only the section it has been granted extra coverage for. So, if something was given Partially-full coverage (video), then it would be allowed to have transcripts or whatever anyone feels would be necessary to do justice to giving it coverage on the video section. As I said, I'm not sure whether we would want one featured video to bump a series up to allowing transcripts for every video, but in general, that's how it would work. This is the reason I created the allowance for individual sections to be granted partially-full coverage: so that we can readily expand on one section of a series without necessarily granting it the right to expand in all areas.
The categories it's allowed to expand come from either having a subject of that section featured by the C's (or based on a discussion specifically asking to expand a particular section for whatever reason). Like I said, we may want to lock it down so that if they feature a singular video, a full video list may be allowed, but only a transcript for that particular video would be allowed - I'm not sure of that, though. The same would apply for Characters or Puzzles.
I mainly created the category because I can't think of a good justification for prohibiting a series from expanding something that was featured or made canon, just as I can't think of a good reason to say that any series that has been featured in any way should get full coverage for every aspect of the series. Shiori 08:14, 31 March 2009 (CDT)
Sounds like a fair system that prevents the pedia from being cluttered with ever show. I have no objections. --KindredPhantom 14:59, 2 April 2009 (CDT)
Since no one's had any objections to this, I'm going to try and flesh out the system and start tagging pages to fit the categories. - Shiori 12:46, 4 April 2009 (CDT)
Should we make templates for all three categories and then tag each UGC page accordingly?   •Kevin•   14:39, 4 April 2009 (CDT)
Actually, I was going to make a template similar the ones they use on talk pages for Wikipedia projects. You could enter what class it was, and unless you enter a class AND a justification, it gets a basic class setting. It'll also have an area to set main contributors. I had started coding it earlier today, and then my browser crashed. Now I'm being hailed by the husband to actually get off my butt for the weekend, but I'll take care of it later. - Shiori 22:19, 4 April 2009 (CDT)

Alright, here's how this is working, if anyone wants to help me out. I'm going through EVERYTHING listed in Category:User Generated Content, to make sure I catch everything.

  1. Tag content with {{community content}}. (You may want to read the new pages about how I'm implementing it.)
    1. If it's content that was never featured or not part of a series with extended coverage, mark it for deletion. (Mark any images included on these pages for deletion, as well.)
    2. Videos that were featured are to be tagged as basic coverage, with a link to where they were featured. Also, add these to Category:Featured content
    3. I'm basing ratings off of the old LGPedia:UGC Tier List, but factoring in the new rating system - all tier 1 and 2s will get basic coverage, 3s and 4s will generally get partially-full; use your judgment.
  2. Add content to Community Content/Series, Community Content/Videos, or Community Content/Other, based on what they are (other being things like commentors).
  3. Move content from Category:User Generated Content to Category:Community content, with series being signified as such by going in Category:Community series.

We'll go through everything once we're done to figure out what meets coverage criteria. This is solely to get things tagged and worked on. - Shiori 10:02, 7 April 2009 (CDT)

Done. Everything's all moved around. FH14, if you want to start tagging stuff that's not LG15-related, you can do it now. Everyone, as much as I know you hate to hear it, his views about that kind of thing were come straight from the Creators. "Although we’re big fans of every great web series out there, because the LGPedia is dedicated to the LG15 Universe, it should only include information about shows in the LG15 Universe or featured on LG15.com." - Shiori 12:09, 9 April 2009 (CDT)

Okay, so I'm mainly working with the OpAphid ARG, and I was just wondering (and this goes for all series that have full coverage) -- should it get a character page (I started working on a very rough one on OpAphid ARG characters)? How about something like List of OpAphid ARG videos? OpAphid ARG locations? Redearth88 locations, etc?   •Kevin•   10:14, 11 April 2009 (CDT)

News Page/New Discussion Areas

I know, I'm just full of suggestions lately. ;P This I've been sitting on for a while, but I didn't want to mention it until our login ability was back. This comes in two forms:

  1. Ren wants to create a news aggregator that could link all things new in the LG15 Universe, which includes the Pedia. However, he needs a singular page with some sort of tag signaling news headlines and whatnot to use. This would obviously get us more coverage everywhere, so it'd be a benefit to all. I'm thinking we'd want to cover major discussions and updates, such as redesigns. We wouldn't want to cover new videos (at least not using the tag Ren will use to pull out news items), as he will be pulling feeds directly from LG15.com. Any suggestions on how this would work, what to include, etc. would be much appreciated.
  2. Lucy's Balcony is a great place to list major suggestions, but other suggestions for updates really have no home other than on their articles' talk pages. I'm thinking we may want to create pages to list ALL discussions on proposed merges, deletions, what have you. Note: I am aware we have existing categories for these, but this would place the entire discussion for each in one area. It would be easier to look at a page listing all expansion/merge/etc. ideas in one place than trying to convince everyone to look at the teeny-tiny sidebar in Recent changes. We could obviously link to these pages from both there and here.

I'm not even sure if we'd want to do this, since it would be a major change in how we're programmed to do business on the Pedia, but it is something to ponder. - Shiori 13:27, 30 March 2009 (CDT)

I love the first idea very much! Perhaps it could work as a supplement to the Main Page that is placed above the series' links. (Or perhaps a preview of a said page on the Main Page that links to a full page with all the said info.) The second idea is definitely something to consider, through it all depends on how that could be executed. --FH14
The idea sounds interesting but whilst reading through the legal terms for lg15.com:
Section 4, D:

"You agree not to use or launch any automated system, including without limitation, "robots," "spiders," or "offline readers," that accesses the Website in a manner that sends more request messages to the lonelygirl15 servers in a given period of time than a human can reasonably produce in the same period by using a conventional on-line web browser."

Does this prevent this idea from being implemented since it will pull information from Eqal servers? --KindredPhantom 16:41, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
That's quite interesting, KP - thanks for finding that. I'm not sure what that means for Ren's aggregator idea. About your other suggestion, Shiori, I agree that these things need to be on other places besides Recent changes, but how and where would we implement this?   •Kevin•   18:05, 30 March 2009 (CDT)
For everything else I get so far, that is a decided no, that license does not apply to my activities. For generating a feed from LGPedia's news, while I would not use pre-made RSS feeds as on the other sites, I would also not download and save the whole page, nor would I traverse the entire pedia. I would extract specific content from a singular page.
I don't know the exact timing, but I've used Yahoo! Pipes in the past to merge RSS feeds, and it took a noticeable while longer than direct feeds for the videos to appear - the number thrown around in comments on the web is 30 minutes. I believe that is not quicker than the average video-addicted comment boarder refreshes the video page ;)
In addition, I think you have the wrong license. This one is the one used on all of EQAL currently, through the link in the footer. I believe the only paragraph that even touches this project is 9., which, in my opinion, would be irrelevant, because I would not be "downloading" and "distributing" EQAL content, but content posted by "members" (you guys) - and since you guys would post news not only knowing full well I would aggregate them, but with the express purpose of that, there's really no surprise or violation of anyone's rights going on here.
I haven't themed it yet, but if you want a sneak preview, have a look here.
It's already working fine, and focuses on LG15 and related stuff only (that is, it's not filled up with Harper's Globe).
~ Renegade (talk | contribs) 00:32, 31 March 2009 (CDT)

Maddison Atkins

I thought I should open this up for discussion. Maddison Atkins recently got a spiffy new website which includes a wiki. Because of this, it may make the most sense to move the information regarding MA from here at the LGPedia to the wiki devoted to it on its official website, and in its place, leaving a single page explaining the series a la the Harper's Globe page. That said, I think the Redearth88 info should stay put for now. Here's basically my idea:

Thoughts? Concerns? Suggestions? --FH14 14:20, 3 May 2009 (EST)

I like this idea. Should we start by making an HG-ish page for MA, under the name of Maddison Atkins ARG, or something like that?   •Kevin•   16:55, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Why not just leave things alone as they should be. They are fine as were. Why change what is not broken?.--modelmotion 03:51, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense for identical information to be present in two places. The reason Harper's Globe isn't more present is because it has its own wiki. The information regarding Maddison Atkins would work better that the new wiki that has been made for it, and it doesn't make much sense to have two wikis containing the exact same information that would both need to be updated. --FH14 09:10, 14 May 2009 (EST)
Also, to add upon what FH14 said, if we were to pick one wiki to have the Maddison information on it, it would be the Maddypedia - Jeromy created it to be the official Maddison wiki and it wouldn't make sense to have information on the LGPedia about Maddison but not on the official Maddypedia. I mean, the Maddypedia is on Maddison Atkins's official website.   •Kevin•   20:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
While I am not a very active participant in LGPedia anymore, so perhaps my word carries less weight now, but the fact that information is available in more than one place on the Internet is part of the strength of the Internet. The current Maddison Atkins section of the LGPedia is pretty comprehensive and complete and isn't hurting anything as far as I can tell. Plus, when there was an earlier brouhaha well over a year ago about which series were deserving of more attention on LGPedia, Maddy was near the top. Maddison Atkins is tied to Lonelygirl15, among other ways, through its connection to the lg15 community. In a few years from now, few will remember any of the shit we cared about as lg15 fans. But if we go about deleting parts of the lgpedia, it only helps ensure that those memories, as fleeting and inconsequential as they may be in the scheme of life, though deeply important to others as least for a period of time, are lost.--Milowent 05:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Now that OpAphid is LG15 canon again...

I would like to propose some points for how we should handle the content on the LGPedia.

  • Character pages (namely OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and War Pylol) - I suggest that we get rid of the "OpAphid ARG characters" template. That way, these four characters can be tagged using the lonelygirl15 characters template (the way Suzie and Jack and Paladins are), and the Redearth88 characters template. For their "Person" template, it should be the LG15 color and not the RE88 color (considering they were first LG15 characters, and are once again currently LG15 characters). Now, some of these pages were set up a bit weird because OpAphid was an ARG, so these characters should get an introduction, a background section with several subsections (one of the subsections being their story in Redearth88), notes, etymology, references, etc. Also, we have to be especially careful with OpAphid's character page because it's gotten cluttered over time, as people have used it for the OpAphid show page. Two different OpAphids right there.
  • Portal:OpAphid ARG (formerly known as the AphidPedia) - This page has kind of left me dumbfounded. I sort of think we should treat OpAphid as a miniseries (equivalent to Watchyourjack, Nikki Bower Report, etc.), and WYJ and NBR don't have portals. One could argue that OpAphid played a much larger role in the actual LG15 storyline and that's true, but once again I'm not sure what to do with this page. If anybody has any suggestions, please comment below the entire post. Thanks!
  • OpAphid ARG (the show page) - This page is also kind of weird. When I first made it, I was considering OpAphid a miniseries. I even deleted the OpAphid portal but modelmotion didn't like that move, so I just made the two pages. Now that the show is LG15 canon, I honestly think it should be treated as a miniseries ARG. So my proposal is to delete the portal and keep the show page, unless somebody else has other ideas.
  • Redearth88 and Redearth88 (show) (former parent series) - I was kind of stumped as to why Redearth88 is the portal. It would make more sense to me if Redearth88 was the show page, and then Portal:Redearth88 or something along those lines was a portal (if it's going to have a portal at all.
  • OpAphid puzzles and OpAphid drops - These pages should be the only two pages that exist on the 'Pedia for OpAphid puzzles and drops. I tried to re-do the OpAphid puzzles page but I don't think I'm knowledgable enough about the puzzles to make a difference. Right now, the way it's set up is that the "OpAphid puzzles" page and the "OpAphid drops" page link to dozens of other pages, each one detailing one puzzle or drop. I think that they should all be merged into OpAphid puzzles and OpAphid drops. Also, I think the pages should be moved to OpAphid ARG puzzles and OpAphid ARG drops. Merge the profile update pages and other things into these pages as well.
  • Operation APHID - Keep this page as a current division of the Order.
  • OPAPHID - Keep this page.
  • OpAphid ARG characters - Delete this page unless similar pages are created for "Watchyourjack characters" and "Nikki Bower Report characters."
  • Everything You Need to Play OpAphid - Delete or merge into the introduction of OpAphid puzzles.
  • Sebastian and Aly Zarin - Merge into Brother and Tachyon.

Any comments, replies, concerns, or questions? Leave them here, and thanks for reading!   •Kevin•   00:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments

  • My own question is whether OpAphid is in the Order still or not. In Redearth88, she departed from them but Miles has stated that Redearth88 is not LG15 canon. So...   •Kevin•   00:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey Kevin, thanks for your thoughts.

Honestly though, after reading through all of this, I think it is just way too complicated.

OpAphid was originally its own series (not an LG15 miniseries), then it came together with Lonelygirl15, and then it seperated off again into its own thing (Redearth88). OpAphid was really always canon during the days it was canon, and not canon during the days it wasn't. Therefore, I think messing with the pages in this way undermines the integrity of the pages and kind of defeats the purpose its trying to achieve. I know you are trying to clarify, but I don't think we can clarify any better than has already been done, unless we can come up with a totally different and way simpler plan. --Zoey 01:13, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Kevin on this, if only because the way it's currently being done is mind fuck of infinite proportions. The puzzles can be rolled into the lg15 and RE88 puzzles, the characters can be rolled into the respective character pages. The operation itself can be left as-is. There's no need for its own little show page, or an "introduction" (I always think these are stupid). Regardless, I'm going to be redoing the designs because they're kind of fug right now (only colors; no graphics until the plan of attack is firmly decided). - Shiori 13:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Figured I'd clarify on this. Since the characters are all across two series, they should either be split into canon character pages and non (silly), or have two sections on each page clarifying what they did on lg15 vs RE88. If you do it this way, Aly and Sebastian can be merged. Otherwise, I wouldn't even attempt it. - Shiori 17:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
As I understand it there is only one OpAphid that dates back to pre-LG15. The characters briefly entered into the LG15 story and that experience became canon. However that does not change the OpAphid experience which as far as we know is a single experience based and controlled by its creator. Until we have any evidence to the contrary we could do serious damage to the integrity of the OpAphid experience by messing with this stuff. It is possible that as TSIY-2 develops we may see further clarification, but to claim that there are two independent OpAphid experiences at this point is simply not supported by fact. OpAphid was last seen in Redearth88 and we need to let events unfold before we know for sure how any OpAphid experience within the the LG15 Universe will unfold in the future and what that might mean for the OpAphid experience within Redearth88. Those are decisions that are up to the creator of the OpAphid experience and all we know for now is that parts of that experience took place in the past within the LG15 Universe and parts were within Redearth88.--modelmotion 18:21, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Here's my two cents. Basically, as OpAphid will soon exist as canon across another LG15 series and not just the original, it doesn't really fall into the same category as Nikki Bower or Watchyourjack. (It never really did, in my opinion, as it existed on its own before and after LG15, making it a series in its own right.) It falls under more of a "Companion Series", in my opinion. Anyway, in regards to the ideas proposed by Kevin. I agree with renaming the show and portal pages and merging the puzzles and drops. The OpAphid ARG characters page is something that can be deleted, as it seems to have been stick in a development limbo for about a year. Keep: Everything You Need to Play OpAphid, OpAphid Character Index Template, The Portal and The Show Page, Operation APHID, and OPAPHID. I agree with what Shiori said about having a section on each character page devoted to the events on Redearth88, but I'm wary about merging Aly Zarin with Tachyon simply becuase it would eradicate the eight character setup for Redearth88 (as I'm quite OCD about that and It might cause me pain. :P) But this is just what I think. Feel free to disagree. --FH14 14:44, 17 October 2009 (EST)
It would be very easy to do a lot of serious damage by moving things around. There is a lot of history here and it is very important stuff. --modelmotion 18:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Exactly, mm, but If we tread carefully and make well-thought out decisions in regards to this, the potential for damage is significantly lessened. --FH14 14:56, 17 October 2009 (EST)
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